How do pro-women's ordination deal with the 12 male Apostles?

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To be fair, many are probably suspicious. If they truly think there ought to be women priests – for whatever reason – then they must think the rationalization for the male priesthood is just that: a rationalization. By the patriarchy or the archaic past. Etc.
 
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The point was that the 12 are never seen in isolation, the way they are being presented by some in this discussion.

The Apostles are the 12, and others like Paul and Barnabas.
There were 15 at the Last Supper according to Mark 14:13-20, not the 13 claimed by quoting Mark 14:17-20.
Luke has Jesus send out 12, and then 72.

The original question asked how some people deal with the 12 apostles. Some do it by recognizing that the 12 are always part of a larger group (except when sitting on 12 thrones in heaven).

An argument based on characteristics of the 12 is not convincing to people who believe in 12+.The problem posed in the question is simply not a problem.
 
13 He sent two of his disciples and said to them, “Go into the city and a man will meet you, carrying a jar of water. Follow him.14 Wherever he enters, say to the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?”’15 Then he will show you a large upper room furnished and ready. Make the preparations for us there.”16 The disciples then went off, entered the city, and found it just as he had told them; and they prepared the Passover.
17When it was evening, he came with the Twelve.
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How many were present?
 
They are assuming the 2 didn’t leave the house and rejoin Jesus and the other 10 before all 12 came back in the evening.
 
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They could have left, let Jesus know they did as instructed and then came back with Him and the others.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Mark 14:17-20 specifically refers to the Twelve being with Jesus at the Last Supper. No mention of Mary Magdalene or the others.
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This argument was offered yesterday.

Is it based on the assumption that “the 2 left the house and rejoin Jesus and the other 10 before all 12 came back in the evening.”?

Why would anyone accept an assumption like that? Is that how you prepare a meal for guests? And what about the master of the house and the man with the water jar? Do you know that they were not there?

Don’t get me wrong here. I think 13 at the Last Supper is a reasonable reading. But it is not the only possible reading, and it is far from the most reasonable.i am just explaining why some might find Brendan’s argument unconvinving.
 
Regardless, people use the Last Supper as an indication of the establishment of (1) the Eucharist and (2) the priesthood.

At the very least, the Eucharist assumes the priesthood. We know that by the early AD 110s, only the bishop (including the priests, his associates) was to preside at the Eucharist. Of course, as Catholics, we’d say that it was this way from the beginning. But there is at least clear proof at this point.

The point being ~ more could be present at the Last Supper, but that doesn’t suggest everyone there is being ordered to offer the Eucharist that day onward.

Since the Eucharist, among other things, fulfilled the Passover, we could ask: Who was it that led the Passover celebration? Was it common for Jewish males, in general, to lead such celebrations? Maybe it made perfect sense in their context that males were to continue this role, if in fact they did so with other Jewish occasions.
 
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I am not really sure how the number of apostles or the number of people at the Last Supper changes anything about the male priesthood.

Catholics also follow Sacred Tradition, not just Scripture.

We are to believe the Deposit of Faith. This is the body of revealed truth (revealed by God) in the Scriptures and Tradition taught by the Roman Catholic Church for the belief of the faithful.

Catholics, are required, to believe in all of the teachings of the Catholic Church in the deposit of faith. We cannot say, “The Church needs to change this or needs to change that.” or “I don’t believe this or that”.

So then, according to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (Pope JPII) and Responsum ad Propositum Dubium (Cardinal Ratzinger, at the time preferct of the CDF) the teaching that the Church has no authority to ordain women is set forth infallibly.

In Responsum ad Propositum, then Cardinal Ratzinger states:

This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.
 
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Dovekin said:
Is it based on the assumption that “the 2 left the house and rejoin Jesus and the other 10 before all 12 came back in the evening.”?

Why would anyone accept an assumption like that? Is that how you prepare a meal for guests?
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If that is how I was instructed or if I had to because there weren’t telephones (at that time) and I had to go get them. Sure. I could easily see someone preparing the meal and walking over to another house or where ever they were staying and saying, “hey come on everyone, the meal is ready”. Why not?
 
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Those who believe women’s ordination to be possible believe that sex does not matter in receiving Holy Orders. But sex matters. That is what the arguement seems to reduce to:

“Sex matters.”
“No it doesn’t!”
“Yes it does.”
“No it doesn’t!”
…

Women of course may be ministers for Holy Matrimony and Baptism.

Ministerial powers depend on ordination, the validity of which depends on sex.
 
One might as well ask why God made you a woman, instead of why God won’t admit women to Holy Orders.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
I am not really sure how the number of apostles or the number of people at the Last Supper changes anything about the male priesthood.
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That would have been a good way to respond to Brendan, who argued:
Brendan_64 said:
Mark 14:17-20 specifically refers to the Twelve being with Jesus at the Last Supper. No mention of Mary Magdalene or the others.
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Most people who support the ordination of women have moved past that kind of proof texting and recognize that the text is more complex. We need to express our faith in a way that opens people to accept the abundance of God’s grace instead of cornering them into a small space. Presuming of course that that is the message of Christ.

And if we believe in the teachings in the deposit of faith, we have to be able to say “the Church needs to change racist attitudes” or”The Church needs to defend the helpless” and “I do not believe pedophiles should be defended.” These are complex issues that need to be addressed in full. It is not enough just to say JP2 set a binding precedent on something.
 
It was a strange question. In any case, no one is entitled to receive Holy Orders. It a sacrament, hence a gift from God. Men may receive the gift, woman may not. But the gift of holiness is offered to all.
 
Dovekin said:
Is it based on the assumption that “the 2 left the house and rejoin Jesus and the other 10 before all 12 came back in the evening.”?
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Luke specifically mentions Peter and John as the two.

Luke 22
Jesus sent Peter and John with these instructions: “Go and get the Passover meal ready for us to eat.”

9 “Where do you want us to get it ready?” they asked him.

10 He answered, “As you go into the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him into the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house: ‘The Teacher says to you, Where is the room where my disciples and I will eat the Passover meal?’ 12 He will show you a large furnished room upstairs, where you will get everything ready.”
 
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