A
alwayswill
Guest
“Faith justifies us before God; works justify us before our neighbors”*
On that point? yes
- Status
On that point? yes
P
pablope
Guest
Only on that point? Not the whole book?
A
alwayswill
Guest
I didn’t read the whole book:
we weren’t discussing the whole book.
We were discussing James 2
If you are keeping score
do you agree with this?
“But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.”
and this?
“Good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits.”
good work are the fruit of justification not the basis of justification
R
rcwitness
Guest
it’s just another way to express the doctrine of Faith and Works. And so is: “We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone.”
The faith is that according to works of law, we merit death. We are reconciled because Jesus fulfilled the law. And the faith is ALSO, that we love one another as He loved us. This is through corporal works of mercy, forgiveness. Like in Matthew 25.
We cannot love God and hate our neighbor. It is a condition of our justification. He must work in us, if we are to live by faith.
P
pablope
Guest
R
rcwitness
Guest
Do you need the source to know if you agree or not?
C
Cathoholic
Guest
alwayswill. You said:
This assumes “justification” is merely a moment.
Justification IS a moment . . . followed by a process . . . a lifelong process.
This is a partial truth.
This assumes “justification” is merely a moment.
Justification IS a moment . . . followed by a process . . . a lifelong process.
S
susanlo
Guest
I am just wondering why the phrase “good work are the fruit of justification not the basis of justification” is limited to either momentary or lifetime. Are you basing this on something else alwayswill said?
I had always thought that fruit of the spirit were the result of a vibrant relationship with Jesus. However just like real fruit trees that sometimes endure droughts, storms or other problems can have years where they produce poor crops, they could later be restored to bountiful years if the conditions improved.
R
rcwitness
Guest
I believe you think correctly. The doctrine of faith and works does not teach that works are the basis of justification. Rather that works are a necessary completion of the lead of faith.
R
rcwitness
Guest
We are forgiven an sanctified through faith alone. Our justification depends on whether we have responded to the faith with works, or rejected the works which faith calls us to.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Justification depends on the present state of the believer. Though he has freely been granted justification on account of baptism (forgineness of sin), he is bound to the work of faith.
S
susanlo
Guest
How is a work of faith defined? What are some examples?
R
rcwitness
Guest
The corporal works of mercy is as follows:
To feed the hungry;To give drink to the thirsty;To clothe the naked;To harbour the harbourless;To visit the sick;To ransom the captive;To bury the dead.
The spiritual works of mercy are:
To instruct the ignorant;To counsel the doubtful;To admonish sinners;To bear wrongs patiently;To forgive offences willingly;To comfort the afflicted;To pray for the living and the dead.
S
susanlo
Guest
John 15
New International Version (NIV)
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
I really can not see a big difference in the theologies of faith and works with Catholicism and Protestantism. It sounds like the Catholic teaching says a believer must do good works and Protestantism says a believer** will **do good works and display fruit of the spirit.
Unless penance and indulgences are considered a “work” I don’t think there is truly a difference.
G
Graceful_Lamb
Guest
Catholics believe that works and faith are necessary for salvation, whereas Protestants seem to think that faith alone is necessary for salvation.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Susanlo. You said:
You also asked . . .
QUOTE:
I am just wondering why the phrase “good work are the fruit of justification not the basis of justification” is limited to either momentary or lifetime. Are you basing this on something else alwayswill said?
Yes I am basing this on what alwayswill stated. alwayswill said . . .
QUOTE:
good work are the fruit of justification not the basis of justification
The “either/or” aspect was put in by alwayswill (not by me).
Here is alwayswill again with emphasis mine . . .
QUOTE:
good work are the fruit of justification NOT the basis of justification
alwayswill puts in a false dichotomy. It is a “both/and” and not an “either/or”.
Justification is NOT limited to an either/or situation.
Our salvation is not “limited to either momentary or lifetime”.
It is both.
Good work IS the fruit of our justification.
And I agree with alwayswill it is not the basis of the MOMENT of justification (I just want to be clear on that).
And I want to state emphatically we cannot “merit” our salvation in the sense of “earn” (we can “merit” WITH Christ in the sense of “reward”).
The “works” don’t “earn” us salvation in a sense God says, “Well, this guy is just sooo good, that he has now EARNED Heaven.” No.
alwayswill and I would agree on that.
But AFTER we have initial justification, WHEN we are UNITED to Christ, things change.
Not because of us . . . but because of Christ IN US (and our cooperation with Christ IN US).
After our initial justification . . . works (AND supernatural faith and supernatural hope) are part of the basis of our ongoing justification.
And if we somehow decide they are NOT, if we cut ourselves OFF from the Vine, if we decide NOT to cooperate with Him and thus receive His grace in vain (see 2nd Cor. 6:1), there is NO justification for those who have “received” this “grace”.
So when alwayswill says:
QUOTE:
good work are the fruit of justification NOT the basis of justification
Let me preface this with repeating there is a sense that alwayswill is correct here. alwayswill is correct in the sense of our INITIAL justification.
But that’s only one aspect of our justification.
Our justification is an ongoing process too.
alwayswill puts in a false dichotomy. It is a both and not and “either/or”.
Why is it a false dichotomy?
Because we ARE justified in a moment. **Then we are continually justified **after that moment too (and that aspect of our justification includes works in the Spirit for those who can according to their state in life–a guy on his death bed, may not be able to do as much as the Good Thief DID for example).
The initial MOMENT is not merited by faith or works.
But once we have this unmerited GIFT of the Holy Spirit from Christ’s work, we need to respond to the Holy Spirit that is now within us.
I’ll talk in terms of an adult being born again (for simplicity but there are other scenarios I will not go into yet—like an infant being born again).
Once this adult is born again, once he/she is born of water and the spirit, we are called to COOPERATE IN GRACE.
So our faith has become supernaturalized, and we are called to persevere in that faith.
But now our “works” are supernaturalized too.
St. Paul puts it this way . . .
God is AT WORK IN YOU, both for the will and good pleasure of the Father (see Philippians 2:13).
And BOTH of these aspects are part of that ongoing justification (and “hope” too).
That’s WHY Revelation 22:11 tells us he who is justified, let him be justified further still.
REVELATION 22:11 (DRV) He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just (Greek = dikaios, the same dikaios that is what the people justified by faith have in Romans 1:17), let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still.
The Catholic Church would unpack it this way . . .
TRENT Session VI CHAPTER X
**On the increase of Justification received. **
Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”
This is WHY St. Paul tells us we are justified by faith WORKING in love (Galatians 5:6).
This is true. You and I are on the same page here. You need the Holy Spirit to bear “fruit”.
You also asked . . .
QUOTE:
I am just wondering why the phrase “good work are the fruit of justification not the basis of justification” is limited to either momentary or lifetime. Are you basing this on something else alwayswill said?
Yes I am basing this on what alwayswill stated. alwayswill said . . .
QUOTE:
good work are the fruit of justification not the basis of justification
The “either/or” aspect was put in by alwayswill (not by me).
Here is alwayswill again with emphasis mine . . .
QUOTE:
good work are the fruit of justification NOT the basis of justification
alwayswill puts in a false dichotomy. It is a “both/and” and not an “either/or”.
Justification is NOT limited to an either/or situation.
Our salvation is not “limited to either momentary or lifetime”.
It is both.
Good work IS the fruit of our justification.
And I agree with alwayswill it is not the basis of the MOMENT of justification (I just want to be clear on that).
And I want to state emphatically we cannot “merit” our salvation in the sense of “earn” (we can “merit” WITH Christ in the sense of “reward”).
The “works” don’t “earn” us salvation in a sense God says, “Well, this guy is just sooo good, that he has now EARNED Heaven.” No.
alwayswill and I would agree on that.
But AFTER we have initial justification, WHEN we are UNITED to Christ, things change.
Not because of us . . . but because of Christ IN US (and our cooperation with Christ IN US).
After our initial justification . . . works (AND supernatural faith and supernatural hope) are part of the basis of our ongoing justification.
And if we somehow decide they are NOT, if we cut ourselves OFF from the Vine, if we decide NOT to cooperate with Him and thus receive His grace in vain (see 2nd Cor. 6:1), there is NO justification for those who have “received” this “grace”.
So when alwayswill says:
QUOTE:
good work are the fruit of justification NOT the basis of justification
Let me preface this with repeating there is a sense that alwayswill is correct here. alwayswill is correct in the sense of our INITIAL justification.
But that’s only one aspect of our justification.
Our justification is an ongoing process too.
alwayswill puts in a false dichotomy. It is a both and not and “either/or”.
Why is it a false dichotomy?
Because we ARE justified in a moment. **Then we are continually justified **after that moment too (and that aspect of our justification includes works in the Spirit for those who can according to their state in life–a guy on his death bed, may not be able to do as much as the Good Thief DID for example).
The initial MOMENT is not merited by faith or works.
But once we have this unmerited GIFT of the Holy Spirit from Christ’s work, we need to respond to the Holy Spirit that is now within us.
I’ll talk in terms of an adult being born again (for simplicity but there are other scenarios I will not go into yet—like an infant being born again).
Once this adult is born again, once he/she is born of water and the spirit, we are called to COOPERATE IN GRACE.
So our faith has become supernaturalized, and we are called to persevere in that faith.
But now our “works” are supernaturalized too.
St. Paul puts it this way . . .
God is AT WORK IN YOU, both for the will and good pleasure of the Father (see Philippians 2:13).
And BOTH of these aspects are part of that ongoing justification (and “hope” too).
That’s WHY Revelation 22:11 tells us he who is justified, let him be justified further still.
REVELATION 22:11 (DRV) He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just (Greek = dikaios, the same dikaios that is what the people justified by faith have in Romans 1:17), let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still.
The Catholic Church would unpack it this way . . .
TRENT Session VI CHAPTER X
**On the increase of Justification received. **
Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”
This is WHY St. Paul tells us we are justified by faith WORKING in love (Galatians 5:6).
C
Cathoholic
Guest
rcwitness. You said:
QUOTE:
We are forgiven an sanctified through faith alone.
You talked about the spiritual WORKS of mercy (here) including “To instruct the ignorant”.
Think about the good spiritual work of sharing truth for example and the sanctification and forgiveness of sins that arises from that good work.
JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
This is not “faith alone” . . . unless you are defining “faith” as a WORKING faith.
rcwitness (emphasis mine):
QUOTE:
We are forgiven an sanctified through faith alone.
Is that what you are doing here? Defining “faith” as a WORKING faith?
If so, I agree with your statement (assuming you are also defining believers as including “hope” in the context that CCC 2016 has)
If not, we can go further in the discussion.
QUOTE:
We are forgiven an sanctified through faith alone.
You talked about the spiritual WORKS of mercy (here) including “To instruct the ignorant”.
Think about the good spiritual work of sharing truth for example and the sanctification and forgiveness of sins that arises from that good work.
JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
This is not “faith alone” . . . unless you are defining “faith” as a WORKING faith.
rcwitness (emphasis mine):
QUOTE:
We are forgiven an sanctified through faith alone.
Is that what you are doing here? Defining “faith” as a WORKING faith?
If so, I agree with your statement (assuming you are also defining believers as including “hope” in the context that CCC 2016 has)
If not, we can go further in the discussion.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
aball1035. You asked 3 questions.
1 - The title of the thread: “How do Protestants and Catholics differ regarding works?”
I tried to touch on that in post 3.
Here is an excerpt:
You also asked two other related questions.
Let’s go on to the first aspect of your question:
No.
Why?
Because good works MAY flow from your faith, but they may flow from (and need to) flow from your grace of charity too in the Catholic world.
In much of the Protestant mindset, good works either flow from your faith, they are irrelevant (concerning your justification), or you never had “a real faith” to begin with.
In the Catholic mindset, when you are born again, when you are born of water and the Spirit, you receive the gifts of SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, AND Charity.
After that, you can freely (and with more help and grace from God) persevere in this faith, hope, and charity (or “love”).
But you can have an authentic faith, hope, and charity, and THEN DECIDE to reject an aspect of these gifts (or reject all of these gifts).
Like Judas threw away his “hope”. That’s what “despair” is.
Another form of rejecting your hope is the sin of “presumption”.
Presumption is thinking: “Yeah. I’m saved and I can’t toss my salvation away. I infallibly know I will persevere to the end. I’m saved and I can’t lose it!”
The sin of presumption is what St. John the Baptist was warning the Pharisees and Sadducees against in Matthew 3.
MATTHEW 3:9-10 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Examples of rejecting your hope
And I think the reason it doesn’t show up is so they can try to say you are justified by faith ALONE. Then look at verses that talk about “works” (some kinds of “works”) and their irrelevance to justification (but there are other kinds of “WORKS” the Protestant has to ignore that DO figure into your justification).
Then conclude you are justified by “Faith ALONE” in an overstatement to reject “Romanism” (Catholicism).
You can also have a saving faith, hope, and charity, and reject your faith later on too. Much to your peril but rejecting your faith CAN be done too.
And likewise you can later reject the charity that you’ve been given.
Rejecting any or all of these is disastrous.
Which one of these Supernatural virtues are the “greatest”?
So faith, hope, charity abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is . . . what?
Is the greatest of these supernatural virtues “faith” so it fits into the invented Protestant tradition of men of “justification by faith ALONE?”
That’s what you’d expect it to be . . . IF we were justified by faith ALONE.
But because we are NOT justified by faith ALONE, “faith” isn’t the correct answer to the question.
So faith, hope, charity abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is . . . what?
Fortunately we don’t have to speculate. Happily St. Paul give us the answer.
St. Paul tells us of faith, hope, love abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is LOVE.
1st CORINTHIANS 13:13 (RSV) 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
But when you are raised in the Protestant tradition of men that teaches you are justified by faith ALONE, this verse doesn’t work.
So you HAVE TO do things like take Ephesians 2:8-9 and pretend the word “alone” is added to “faith”.
You HAVE TO do things like ignore other verses of St. Paul that talks about OTHER things too (whereas we as Catholics affirm ALL the verses).
And you HAVE TO do things like ignore (or radically re-interpret) other verses outside of St. Paul where there are warnings that we MUST WORK.
MATTHEW 7:21 (NIV) 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
I’ll try to touch on your last question (" What are the “works” Catholics refer to?") of the thread later.
1 - The title of the thread: “How do Protestants and Catholics differ regarding works?”
I tried to touch on that in post 3.
Here is an excerpt:
So far in this thread we have seen this illustrated from our Protestant friends.
You also asked two other related questions.
Let’s go on to the first aspect of your question:
Isn’t this essentially the same?
No.
Why?
Because good works MAY flow from your faith, but they may flow from (and need to) flow from your grace of charity too in the Catholic world.
In much of the Protestant mindset, good works either flow from your faith, they are irrelevant (concerning your justification), or you never had “a real faith” to begin with.
In the Catholic mindset, when you are born again, when you are born of water and the Spirit, you receive the gifts of SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, AND Charity.
After that, you can freely (and with more help and grace from God) persevere in this faith, hope, and charity (or “love”).
But you can have an authentic faith, hope, and charity, and THEN DECIDE to reject an aspect of these gifts (or reject all of these gifts).
Like Judas threw away his “hope”. That’s what “despair” is.
Another form of rejecting your hope is the sin of “presumption”.
Presumption is thinking: “Yeah. I’m saved and I can’t toss my salvation away. I infallibly know I will persevere to the end. I’m saved and I can’t lose it!”
The sin of presumption is what St. John the Baptist was warning the Pharisees and Sadducees against in Matthew 3.
MATTHEW 3:9-10 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Examples of rejecting your hope
- Despair
- Presumption
And I think the reason it doesn’t show up is so they can try to say you are justified by faith ALONE. Then look at verses that talk about “works” (some kinds of “works”) and their irrelevance to justification (but there are other kinds of “WORKS” the Protestant has to ignore that DO figure into your justification).
Then conclude you are justified by “Faith ALONE” in an overstatement to reject “Romanism” (Catholicism).
You can also have a saving faith, hope, and charity, and reject your faith later on too. Much to your peril but rejecting your faith CAN be done too.
And likewise you can later reject the charity that you’ve been given.
Rejecting any or all of these is disastrous.
Which one of these Supernatural virtues are the “greatest”?
So faith, hope, charity abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is . . . what?
Is the greatest of these supernatural virtues “faith” so it fits into the invented Protestant tradition of men of “justification by faith ALONE?”
That’s what you’d expect it to be . . . IF we were justified by faith ALONE.
But because we are NOT justified by faith ALONE, “faith” isn’t the correct answer to the question.
So faith, hope, charity abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is . . . what?
Fortunately we don’t have to speculate. Happily St. Paul give us the answer.
St. Paul tells us of faith, hope, love abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is LOVE.
1st CORINTHIANS 13:13 (RSV) 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
But when you are raised in the Protestant tradition of men that teaches you are justified by faith ALONE, this verse doesn’t work.
So you HAVE TO do things like take Ephesians 2:8-9 and pretend the word “alone” is added to “faith”.
You HAVE TO do things like ignore other verses of St. Paul that talks about OTHER things too (whereas we as Catholics affirm ALL the verses).
And you HAVE TO do things like ignore (or radically re-interpret) other verses outside of St. Paul where there are warnings that we MUST WORK.
MATTHEW 7:21 (NIV) 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
I’ll try to touch on your last question (" What are the “works” Catholics refer to?") of the thread later.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
I was re-reading my posts and I wanted to correct syntax in post 36 to make it more clear.
Why is it a false dichotomy?
Because we ARE justified in a moment.
But then later we are continually justified after that moment too.
An that continued aspect of our justification includes works in the Spirit for those who can according to their state in life (a guy on his death bed, may not be able to do as much as the Good Thief DID for example).
Why is it a false dichotomy?
Because we ARE justified in a moment.
But then later we are continually justified after that moment too.
An that continued aspect of our justification includes works in the Spirit for those who can according to their state in life (a guy on his death bed, may not be able to do as much as the Good Thief DID for example).
- Status