Ok, yet Orthodox have such valid succession, and even some Protestantism (many reformers were Catholic ordained clergy). Beyond that the proof is in the pudding, or “apostolic is as apostolic does”, that is what matters is not so much the physical succession of laying on of hands but of correct doctrine and practice.
Again, you are mixing what is explicit and implicit. Yes apostles were explicitly guided…but just look at “church” as in the congregations in Book of Revelations and the challenges they faced…no hint of infallibility there, but yes on the infallible guiding message going forth from the apostle/angel.
I like it, but proof is in pudding (history), not to “change” one single doctrine, that Holy Spirit can not perfectly guide in other communities on any contested doctrine per CC response, even insisting on possibly adding more (Mary doctrine not complete)
Again, is there wheat and tares in the field ? Was not the wheat perfectly planted ? Did we not start with a perfect garment, but no tares/threads be added, to be discerned? I say we can pull at some threads because indeed some threads can be added by human meddling, while still not doing away with divine thread (though making its effect change, as sin/error does).
Respectfully opinion and confused:thinking:
about what one posted, because within the whole Bible from beginning to end , it seems to state the complete opposite of what you have stated above maybe?
Thank you for your advice will do! Peace
Respectfully agree with the call for unity!! Very important
did Jesus make it clear within Scripture?Beautiful post and greatly enjoyed the read! Thank you!!
I don’t think so. I think the ground of contention is not trusting that Jesus has done what He promised He would do. There seems to be a belief that fallen human beings are more powerful than God, and can thwart His purpose.
I think this is why people say that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura has “made everyone their own pope”. Everyone feels they have the right and responsibility to determine for themselves what the Apostles meant by what is written in the Scriptures. And most of the time this happens without ever having read what their disciples wrote and believed. It is as if there were no history of the garment until 1520!
Fortunately the Word of God cannot be sullied by those who fail to adhere to it. Even Jesus instructed the disciples to be obedient to their leaders, for they sat on the Seat of Moses.
On the contrary, the letters in the book of Revelation are evidence of infallibility. THey demonstrate that Jesus can, and does, discipline His Church, guide it, and preserve it in all Truth. This happens despite those who fail to obey. I think you have confused infallibility with impeccability.
I will certainly support that Jesus taught that those in leadership should not “lord it over” the flock. But only Peter was given the responsibility to feed and care for the flock. Jesus only prayed for Peter to be restored, so that He could strengthen his brethren.
The Church cannot add any doctrine. The public revelation was closed at the death of the last Apostle. All that can be added are dogmas, that explain and clarify the once for all divine deposit of faith.
The wheat and the tares are people. The Doctrine is One. The doctrine, once it begins to be unthreaded, continues to ravel until orthodoxy has been lost. Surely you can see this by looking at what has happened with major Protestant bodies in the last 50 years!
The garment was whole, but the discernment has been developing. This has been the work of the councils. Among them has been discerning the books that belonged in the NT, the hypostatic union, Sunday Worship, the Trinity, the Theotokos. These represent our discernment of the once for all divine deposit of faith. The seamless garment must not be unravelled.
You have claimed for yourself the right of discernment over the divine deposit of faith. You are in good company with all the Reformers, who have done the same. Part of the problem comes from hubris, part comes from not being able to discern what is divine revelation, and what is “human meddling”. There is no “human meddling” in the once for all divine deposit of faith. There fore it falls to determine what was in that deposit.
Cherry pickin…plenty of scriptures to show conditionality
so is the promise of guidance, to people
With individuals, yes, but none that say Jesus will abandon His Church if certain members are faithless. Even the harsh messages of the Letters in Revelation do not go there. In the New Covenant, the Spirit is within, and the Church is incarnational, like Christ. The divine cannot be separated from the human.
This is where the redefinition of Church coined at the Reformation makes the critical difference. The Church is more than the “body of believers on earth”. She is the Holy Bride of Christ, and she is above and beyond any number of fallible persons attached to her. The promise is made to the Body. Individuals can benefit from this guidance to the extent they remain in unity with the Head and the Soul of the Church. Those who do not accept and follow the guidance are not protected by infallibility.
How long does un(name removed by moderator)eccability have to go one before infallibility shows up ? A month, a year , a decade, a century or two?
I think you are confused. The reason that the Church needs the gift of infallibility is because we are all fallen sinners. The gift of God is not based upon our human weakness and failings. It is based on His grace alone. We can never “earn” His gifts by 'behaving well".
Yes and no. For Catholics, there is only One Church. All the local bodies are members of the One Body of Christ. We may agree that Jesus has purged/destroyed the errors, such as stamping out the heresies of Gnosticism and Arianism.
This is a reflection of how we see the Church differently. CAtholics see Jesus as the Head of the Church. In the letters of Revelation, we see Jesus speaking to correct the congregations (not “an apostle”). Like the rest of inspired Scripture, we consider that it is the Word of God, not the word of the fallible persons who wrote it.
We know that Reformers are of God if they obey the authority He has appointed, whether they are out of order, or not. Scriptures call us to be obedient to our leaders,and He will bless the Church far above and beyond the sinfulness or carnal behaviors of those who are attached to her. God can write straight with crooked lines.
Yes and no…the yes we all too well understand, the no is more difficult.
That goes both ways then…He can thru an Orthodox or Protestant reformer, even if they have 30,000 denominations.
Yes we all see Jesus as the head of the church, being guided by Holy Ghost…why else would we be wrongly portrayed in expressing just an invisible church.