How do Protestants deal with James on faith and works?

[steido01]

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

James 2:14

Perhaps you didn’t finish reading the whole post, or at least the whole quotation. We can chat once you’ve had an opportunity to digest.

Or, if you haven’t had a chance to read the other thread:

This is how Luther can honestly say “Faith Alone,” and mean it, while understanding that a saving faith is never alone.

Lest anyone accuse Luther of mental gymnastics, consider another native German translator, Pope Benedict XVI, on the matter.

And should anyone think that I’m being too generous to Luther, his view is even more plain in his introduction to Romans:

Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever… Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

Finally, consider this article from Catholic Answers:

In popular discussions, this verse is often presented to Protestants as if it proves that we are justified by faith and works, with nothing more to be said. Confronted with this claim, the Protestant may respond, “But that’s not the kind of justification that James is talking about.” Before dismissing this claim, a Catholic should be aware of one thing: The magisterium agrees with it.

(Oops!)

TLDR: Luther did not consider “Faith” to be some mere intellectual assent, as he is being misrepresented to teach here. Faith, to him, was so much more.

 

[AugustTherese]

Faith cannot help doing good works constantly

Wrong. The whole point of James 2:14-26 is to exhort those who do have faith, but are not ‘doing good works constantly’, hence: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” Notice: he HAS faith, but DOES NOT HAVE GOOD WORKS, hence the possibility of having faith without works! The demons have faith, yet cannot they ‘help doing good works constantly’? Faith can help doing good works constantly, hence faith is dead without works!

Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace.

I like this a lot and think it is beautifully written!

Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

Really? Saint James disagrees: “You have faith and I have works.” There is the separation! So, why separate faith and works regarding justification!

Now, I will juxtapose one sentence with the other to show you the contradiction:

Faith cannot help doing good works constantly

Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace

Did you notice: ‘cannot help’ versus ‘freely, willingly’? The former implies forced coercion, lack of free will, while the latter implies cooperation, manifestation of free will.

 

[lanman87]

Okay…but, what’s the problem with that? If we are justified by faith alone, before God, why would one have to be justified by works, but only before men?

1. To give evidence of what Christ has done for us in both our words and deeds, in the hopes that others will also come to faith.
2. To affirm that our faith is real and not merely intellectual assent or an emotional reaction.
3. To put our faith into action in the hopes of making a difference in someones life.
4. To proclaim the Glory of God to those in our sphere of influence.

Those are just a few of the reasons, off the top of my head, of why those with a genuine faith will “Show our faith by our works”. If we truly have faith then those things (and many more) are important to us. Loving God and Loving others are important to us. What James is saying is that if you really have faith then our actions will reflect what is important to us. And that if you claim to have faith but serving and loving and giving Glory to God isn’t important to you, then you need to examine your “faith” to see if it is really faith at all.

 

[AugustTherese]

To give evidence of what Christ has done for us in both our words and deeds, in the hopes that others will also come to faith.
To affirm that our faith is real and not merely intellectual assent or an emotional reaction.
To put our faith into action in the hopes of making a difference in someones life.
To proclaim the Glory of God to those in our sphere of influence

That’s all fine and dandy, but I asked you about justification before God. Faith alone without works justifies before God, according to sola fide, then what does my salvation have to do with being justified before men by my works?

 

[steido01]

Wrong. The whole point of James 2:14-26 to exhort those who do have faith, but are not ‘doing good works constantly’, hence: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” The demons have faith, yet cannot they ‘help doing good works constantly’? Faith can help doing good works constantly, hence faith is dead without works!

I think you may have missed the words I bolded for you. What does Luther say just two sentences after you cut him off? Let me quote it a little bigger this time:

"Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever…"​

Or as James puts it, they have a dead faith. Not much good dead, eh?

---

Did you notice: ‘cannot help’ versus ‘freely, willingly’? The former implies forced coercion, lack of free will, while the latter implies cooperation, manifestation of free will.

When your will is conformed to Christ’s, Who is imposing Whose will?

This is a silly thing to quibble about, if ever there was a silly thing to quibble about. In the brilliant, understated words of my favorite pope, “Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices.” In other words, being justified (and its result of doing justice) is being conformed to Christ’s will. Why do you squirm from Him and seek a will of your own?

 

[straykat]

I doubt I’ll convince some here, but Paul and James were never incompatible, because Paul was never talking about “works” in the sense of “ethical actions”.

Works of the Law are the laws that gave a sign of the Old Covenant. Dietary and Circumcision based laws, etc… Things that said “I am a Jew. A Separated People”. And he argued with those “Judaizers” who told Christians they had to be part of this separated group themselves. In his teaching, there was no longer “Jew or Gentile”, but all had to come to Christ the same way. Therefore these signs that separated people were to go.

Yet Paul, over and over again, exhorts his audience on ethics all the time! These were not done with in the Church! No one writes more about works than Paul. He is voluminous. And forget Paul for a second. Lets go back to our Lord: It’s why Jesus himself spent much of his time teaching! He didn’t just become incarnate to die on the cross and enact some metaphysical “justification by faith”. The Incarnation starts with his actual life first. Not his death. And we are not to ignore it.

Luther wanted to toss out James because he read Paul incorrectly…he built this whole model (or I’d say, a house of cards) that he fell in love with and wouldn’t let go. “Sola Fide”. Therefore when he encountered James, he only saw James in light of his model of Paul (rather than actual Paul who differentiated morality and Covenant signs). So Luther risked throwing out James entirely over his own imaginary violation. And this is the red flag about that man in general. Instead of examining where he may be wrong, he decided to go against a canon that was built by hundreds of church fathers. And then assumed only HE had the insight of the Holy Spirit to redefine it. I’d not rather not side with someone this arrogant.

 

[AugustTherese]

“Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever…”
Or as James puts it, they have a dead faith. Not much good dead, eh?

No! Read what Saint James is saying without Luther’s eyes!

It is possible to have faith (believer) without works! Look:

"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Or, “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?” Read that last verse a couple times and notice how it is possible for a believer (“he has faith”) does not necessarily have good works (“but does not have works”).

Luther, in contrast, is saying that you cannot have faith without works, that it is “impossible to separate them”. It is very possible to maintain a faith without works, hence “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!”. Did you notice that the demons have faith, “even the demons believe”?!

In other words, being justified (and its result of doing justice) is being conformed to Christ’s will.

Agreed! But, Luther and those who follow his teachings, do not confess to believe in ‘doing justice’ to be justified before God! Hence, sola fide. Also, ‘doing justice’ is not a mere byproduct or sole result of being justified initially in Baptism, but is an actual participation in the life of Christ that makes us just before God!

 

[lanman87]

then what does my salvation have to do with being justified before men by my works?

Being justified (Shown to be just) before men is evidence that you have been justified (declared to be just by God). Our works don’t make us just before God they are evidence that we have been justified by faith.

 

[lanman87]

Did you notice that the demons have faith, “even the demons believe”?!

I disagree that the demons have faith. Belief and faith are not the same thing. Belief means mental assent or intellectual understanding. Faith means more than simple belief. It means trust and commitment. The demons do not trust in Christ for their salvation nor are they committed to follow Christ.

 

[steido01]

Luther, in contrast, is saying that you cannot have faith without works, that it is “impossible to separate them”.

You’re grossly misunderstanding Luther by conflating faith and belief. Luther’s words here are something that a Catholic of any stripe should agree with.

It is very possible to maintain a faith without works, hence “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!”. Did you notice that the demons have faith, “even the demons believe”?!

No, it is not. Here, you are (probably unknowingly) playing a game with the English. The “faith” of which Luther speaks is not “belief.” But I’ll let this Roman Catholic source (which I can only assume you still have not read, as the link shows no click count) explain it to you:

In common speech, the term faith is a synonym for belief. When coupled with the word alone and used to describe the method of our justification, it communicates to most people the erroneous idea that we can be saved by intellectual belief alone—the view that Trent rejected.

Luther and Lutherans agree wholeheartedly with Trent on that point. No Lutheran would rightly conflate belief with faith. This is why Lutherans use “even the demons in hell believe” to the same general effect as Roman Catholics.

 

[AugustTherese]

Being justified (Shown to be just) before men is evidence that you have been justified (declared to be just by God).

God declares what is, He cannot lie. If He declares us just, then we are just! Again, why do we need to be ‘shown to be just before men’? What does it matter, in terms of justification, that any human creature see our works, outside of only for the glorification of God?

Our works don’t make us just before God they are evidence that we have been justified by faith.

“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Read that last part, ‘not by faith alone’. Saint James is saying that we are justified not by faith alone. Cannot only God see faith? How come we are not justified by faith alone, then?

 

[steido01]

Exactly. The Roman Catholic source, to which I linked earlier, makes this distinction.

If demons had the same “faith” we have, then the only thing separating them from heaven would be their lack of works – which would make our works what actually save us, not faith in Christ. That’s why, as the previous source stated:

James isn’t saying that you need to do good works in order to be forgiven. And neither is the Catholic Church.

 

[AugustTherese]

the term faith is a synonym for belief

Exactly…Hence why Saint James interchangeably uses the terms ‘faith’ and ‘believe’: “Even the demons believe…Can that faith save him?” There is nothing to ‘conflate’!

 

[lanman87]

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Read that last part, ‘not by faith alone’. Saint James is saying that we are justified not by faith alone. Cannot only God see faith? How come we are not justified by faith alone, then?

The Greek word for Justified (dikaioutai) in this context is “to be shown just”.

We are shown to be just by our works and not by faith alone. Both show that we are justified before God. In the context of the paragraphs “faith alone” is talking about saying “I have faith”. We are shown to be just both by what we do (works) and what we say (I have faith).

 

[steido01]

Agreed! But, Luther and those who follow his teachings, do not confess to believe in ‘doing justice’ to be justified before God!

Neither does the Roman Catholic Church, unless it’s gone full-on Pelagian in the last five minutes.

 

[AugustTherese]

If demons had the same “faith” we have, then the only thing separating them from heaven would be their lack of works –

Exactly! Now, I am in no position to judge your faith, nor anyone else’s, but that is the entire point Saint James is making!

“Those who believe but who do not fear God are even worse than the devils. And those who believe and tremble but who do not practice what they preach are just like the devils.” Saint Hilary of Arles

“You can believe what God says, you can believe that God exists, and you can believe in him, which means that you love him so much that you want to do what he tells you. There are many evil people around who can manage the first two of these. They believe that God means what he says, and they are quite prepared to accept that he exists. But it takes someone who is not just a nominal Christian but who is one in deed and in living to love God and to do what he commands. Faith with love is Christian, but faith without love is demonic.” - Saint Bede

“James gives us the example of the devils, saying that those who profess faith with their lips only are really no better than they are. For even they believe that Christ is the Son of God, that he is the Holy One of God and that he has authority over them.” - Andreas

“The apostle says that a man who believes and does not act has the faith of demons.” - Caesarius of Arles

which would make our works what actually save us, not faith in Christ

Why dichotomize faith and works, and then say that only the works would save us, not faith?!

 

[steido01]

No translation that I am aware of uses those terms interchangeably. Here’re three Catholic translations

Douay Rheims:

But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

NAB:

Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

CEV:

Suppose someone disagrees and says, “It is possible to have faith without doing kind deeds.” I would answer, “Prove that you have faith without doing kind deeds, and I will prove that I have faith by doing them.” You surely believe there is only one God. That’s fine. Even demons believe this, and it makes them shake with fear.

 

[AugustTherese]

Neither does the Roman Catholic Church, unless it’s gone full-on Pelagian in the last five minutes.

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day, that is, mortifying the members of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still; and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.” - Council of Trent

 

[AugustTherese]

No translation that I am aware of uses those terms interchangeably. Here’re three Catholic translations

I used the Protestant ESV.

 

[steido01]

Faith with love is Christian, but faith without love is demonic.” - Saint Bede

Because it is not faith in God. It is faith in self, or something else. It is a false faith. The Caesarius of Arles quote fits there too.

As for the “Andreas” bit, I don’t know the quotee, but you seem to be misapplying him to conflate belief and faith again. Lutherans don’t do that, no matter how much you wish they did.

Why dichotomize faith and works, and then say that only the works would save us, not faith?!

Why does your church do the same? Is it because Christ’s work is greater? That He, alone, might deserve all the Glory? That it might cover all our sins in their entirety? That we receive it by grace and not because of any works we ourselves do to appease a bloodthirsty god?