How do Protestants deal with James on faith and works?

[lanman87]

Catholics call this prevenient grace. The only difference might be that we consider it to be a lot of “somethings” over a long period of time in some cases, not a once for all and for all time event.

Yes, but is also not effectual. Using this silly analogy, under Catholic teaching it is possible for God to change you so that you desire tomatoes, hunger for tomatoes and can’t do without tomatoes, yet still go, nevermind I don’t want a tomato.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, but is also not effectual.

I think you are saying that an authentic love relationship with tomatoes is a once for all event that happens at one point in time, and is effectual to the end. This would be consistent with the Calvin TULIP.

Yes, but is also not effectual. Using this silly analogy, under Catholic teaching it is possible for God to change you so that you desire tomatoes, hunger for tomatoes and can’t do without tomatoes, yet still go, nevermind I don’t want a tomato.

To some extent. We hold that the “change” can happen very gradually, and at any point, a person can continue to refuse the tomatoes. Or, a person can have an “event’” of spiritual enlightenment, become passionately in love with tomatoes - even eat nothing BUT tomatos for YEARS, then finally reject them.

It is also possible to go in and out of a love for those tomatoes throughout life.

 

[Agathon]

guanophore:

Catholics call this prevenient grace. The only difference might be that we consider it to be a lot of “somethings” over a long period of time in some cases, not a once for all and for all time event.

Yes, but is also not effectual. Using this silly analogy, under Catholic teaching it is possible for God to change you so that you desire tomatoes, hunger for tomatoes and can’t do without tomatoes, yet still go, nevermind I don’t want a tomato.

I guess the Parable of the Talents is silly.

 

[margaret42]

I think i understand you. Are you saying that faith must be backed up with works?

 

[guanophore]

I think i understand you. Are you saying that faith must be backed up with works?

For Calvanists, “true” faith or “true” believers are demonstrated by the good works in their lives. If the good works are not present, then there is a question that they were never really saved.

Since Catholics have a different understanding of salvation (we “work out salvation” during this lifetime) the good works are part and parcel of the process of sanctification, and therefore, cannot be separated from the saving grace that produces them.

 

[margaret42]

Jim, i agree with you. The two big belief systems are 1. " Faith alone will save you"; 2. “There’s no salvation outside of the Catholic church”. And Jesus is always right. “Your faith has saved you-go and sin no more”. A two-fold requirement

 

[lanman87]

For Calvinists, “true” faith or “true” believers are demonstrated by the good works in their lives. If the good works are not present, then there is a question that they were never really saved.

I’ve been away for a while and just now going back and checking the board…

This Sunday the church I attend is starting a teaching series on the book of James. We are encourage to do some research on our own to prepare us for the Study of James.

I ran across a Blue Letter Bible Study on James Here are a few snippets.

*Works must accompany a genuine faith, because genuine faith is always connected with regeneration - being born again, becoming a new creation in Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17). If there is no evidence of a new life, there was no genuine, saving faith.

As Charles Spurgeon is reported to have said: “The grace that does not change my life will not save my soul.” .

*Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead: This is the first time James speaks of a dead faith. Faith alone saves us, but it must be a living faith. We can tell if faith is alive by seeing if it is accompanied by works, and if it does not have works, it is dead.

i. A living faith is simply real faith. If we really believe something, we will follow through and act upon it. If we really put our trust and faith on Jesus, we will care for the naked and destitute as He told us to.

I also found this quote to be interesting. “Man is not justified by faith alone, that is, by a bare and empty knowledge of God; he is justified by works, that is, his righteousness is known and proved by its fruits.”- John Calvin

 

[Sean77]

The same way Paul does in Ephesians 2: As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient (απειθεια - meaning willful disbelief or disobedience). All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our transgression - it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show our incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that on one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Paul repeatedly emphasizes that we are saved by God’s grace, which is unmerited by our works, and in fact says we are not saved by works, but through faith. Notice that the verbs leading up to Paul’s great statement of how we are saved by grace through faith are all performed by God himself. Not by us. Why are we saved? So that we can be restored to do the good works that God has given us to do. Good works are the result of salvation by grace through faith, not the cause. All James is saying is that people who claim to have faith should demonstrate their faith by making their faith and practice consistent with one another.

 

[AugustTherese]

All James is saying is that people who claim to have faith should demonstrate their faith by making their faith and practice consistent with one another.

Why? What is the point of demonstrating our faith if that demonstration, i.e. ‘practice’, has nothing to do with our salvation?

 

[Sean77]

I don’t understand your statement, particularly in light of Paul’s statement that quite explicitly says you are not saved by works but by faith. We are saved by grace, through faith, the means by which we receive this grace. Not by works so that no one may boast. You are equating works with salvation which Paul explicitly says does not bring about salvation. That being said, we are saved and because we are saved (note the ίνα clause in vs 10) so that we can do what god created us to do in the first place before the fall, which is to serve him. We are saved so that we can do good works, not by our works. That is the distinction you are missing.

 

[AugustTherese]

you are not saved by works but by faith. We are saved by grace, through faith, the means by which we receive this grace. Not by works so that no one may boast

Correct, initially we are saved by grace through faith, not by works of our own. This is known as regeneration in Holy Baptism.

However, we must allow the life of God to continually possess us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison etc. to be further justified.

Salvation is not an oversimplification of Ephesians 2:8-9. Salvation is a lifelong journey of allowing God to infuse us with His life so that we may become perfect, as nothing unclean will ever enter heaven.

 

[Sean77]

Please provide the verse that says we are initially saved by grace but that at some point Jesus isn’t enough.

Colossians 1:13-14 NIV
[13] For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, [14] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. …

Looks to me like a done deal, completed by Christ. You are confusing salvation with sanctification.

 

[AugustTherese]

Please provide the verse that says we are initially saved by grace but that at some point Jesus isn’t enough

Where in the Bible does it say that we have to provide a verse for believing in a specific doctrine?

Also, I did not say that ‘Jesus isn’t enough’. Working out our salvation can only be done with, in, and through Jesus.

“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24 ESV

Looks to me like a done deal, completed by Christ

Then, you should be in Heaven right now. If there is nothing more you can do, then why are you still on this Earth?

You are confusing salvation with sanctification.

Why would you dichotomize the two? Only those who are perfectly sanctified will be finally saved.

 

[Sean77]

From where are you deriving any of your doctrine? First of all James is showing the difference between dead knowledge and faith, faith being something that guides our actions, and is speaking about living in a manner that provides testimony to others. The word justification in that context is not justification before god but to those who are witnessing that person’s bahavior. Once again though as Paul shows us throughout Ephesians and Galatians, actions are the response to salvation, not the cause.

The comment about heaven was just a grasping at straws. The fact that I am not in heaven awaiting judgment day has nothing to do with salvation. It means I’m not dead yet. But yes, once I die I will assuredly be before the throne of God with his saints, because I have been saved by grace through faith and transferred from the dominion of the devil to be an heir through Christ, eagerly awaiting the resurrection. Your last statement is easily answered. A) that’s incorrect. Christ what knew no sin became sin for us so that we might be credited his righteousness. B) I dichotomize salvation and sanctification because the apostles drew a distinction between the two.

 

[AugustTherese]

From where are you deriving any of your doctrine?

From the Person of Jesus Christ and the Church He founded, transmitted through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The word justification in that context is not justification before god but to those who are witnessing that person’s bahavior.

Notice that nowhere in the Epistle of Saint James does it state what you’re alluding to. In fact, Saint James uses the example of Abraham being justified by his works in front of God alone, tested by God alone (cf. Gen 22). Not only that, but Scripture alone attests that displaying justification before others to ‘witness’ is abominable:

“And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.” Luke 16:15 ESV

Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees. So, if you would like to justify yourselves by works before others, you would be akin to the Pharisees. Again:

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 6:1 ESV

 

[Sean77]

I am actually very happy that you bring up the subject of Abraham in the epistle of James. This actually highlights the theological mess created by the interpretation that you are offering. What is interesting is that the Pauline corpus makes specific reference to the passage referred to by James repeatedly, but he draws the exact opposite conclusion than what you would have us believe James is presenting.

Paul in Romans referring to Abraham’s faith and how we righteousness is by faith not works of the law:

• What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For IF Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness…
• For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
• That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring – not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all…
• That is why faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
• Therefore since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
• Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith - just as Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness?” Know then that it is those of faith who are sons of Abraham.
• Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
• You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Paul’s argument in Galatians and Romans regarding Abraham’s faith is that it was Abraham’s belief that God would honor his promise to raise up children through Isaac that justified him before God, this is before he had offered up Isaac on the altar, and similarly before he had received the convenant of circumcision. His faith caused his actions to walk in step by his faith, but Paul explicitly states, repeatedly, that is was faith, not works that justified Abraham.

James isn’t overturning salvation by grace, he is arguing for works to be in step with faith.

 

[Sean77]

Your quote of Luke and Matthew further shows you aren’t quite understanding what is going on in those passages. Christ constantly says you should have obeyed your traditions AND still observed the true spirit of the law. In that context he is showing that the Pharisees were concerned about being justified before men for show as hypocrites by observance of their traditions, all while disobeying the true intent of the law making them unrighteous before God. Jesus says, you should have been righteous before both.

 

[AugustTherese]

His faith caused his actions to walk in step by his faith, but Paul explicitly states, repeatedly, that is was faith, not works that justified Abraham.

Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
James 2:21

 

[tgGodsway]

That is a Puritan view and not fully reformed.

 

[tgGodsway]

Sure… But not before God. Rom. 4