How do Protestants deal with James on faith and works?

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Again, you are trying to play James against Paul. When your theology forces you to abandon one over the other, your interpretation is incorrect.
  • 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due…Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
If you follow Paul’s argument, the quote the Paul and James is citing is found in Genesis 15:6, “And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” You will note that Isaac’s birth does not occur until Genesis 21, and the incident with Isaac on the altar until Genesis 22. Paul’s point is that God credited Abraham as righteous long before he demonstrated his faith on Mount Moriah. Hebrews makes the same point. His actions walked in step with his faith, but according to Paul his righteousness is by faith. One is the result of the other.

James also is referring to the same quote. Again, Abraham’s faith made him righteous before God, and was later demonstrated outwardly. Hence, he was outwardly demonstrated to other men as righteous even though God had long before declared him as righteous in his sight.
 
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Sean77 said:
Again, you are trying to play James against Paul
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Really? By simply quoting a verse from James 2? Notice: I am quoting Scripture alone, and you are adding commentary, redefining Scripture.
Sean77 said:
When your theology forces you to abandon one over the other, your interpretation is incorrect
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First of all, it is not my theology; I subject myself to the teachings of the Church that Jesus Christ founded, safeguarding the apostolic understanding of Scripture. Second, Catholic theology does not separate faith from works, Protestant theology does!
Sean77 said:
James also is referring to the same quote. Again, Abraham’s faith made him righteous before God, and was later demonstrated outwardly. Hence, he was outwardly demonstrated to other men as righteous even though God had long before declared him as righteous in his sight.
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What ‘other men’? Read Genesis 22 where it states that God alone tested Abraham and Abraham even commanded his servants to stay behind while he sacrificed Isaac.

"After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” Genesis 22:1 ESV

"Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” Genesis 22:5

Did Abraham sacrifice Isaac to men? In front of men? No! God tested Abraham and Abraham performed a work before God alone as was justified for it!

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.” James 2:21-23

Did you notice that after Abraham offered up his son Isaac, it was then he was ‘called a friend of God’, not of men, but of God!

Nowhere in Saint James epistle does it even hint at being justified before men.
 
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tgGodsway said:
Sure… But not before God. Rom. 4
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Saint Paul is rebuking Judaizers in Romans 4, explaining to them that the works of the law, i.e. works of the Torah such as circumcision, does not justify oneself before God. Did you notice in Romans 4:1 it says:

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?”.

According to the flesh refers to circumcision, a work of the law:

“Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised”. Romans 4:9-12 ESV

So, no, we are not justified by circumcision (work of the law) before God. Those works do not justify us before God. But, works of charity, i.e. feeding the hungry, clothing the naked are works that will further justify us after Baptism.

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” Romans 2:13 ESV
 
I’m redefining scripture by showing you the verses and order that Paul referenced in genesis? If looking at the reference text is redefining scripture you have an interesting definition there. As Paul said explicitly in the passage I quoted from Romans Abraham was credited righteousness by god apart from works of the law. Genesis bears this out as Abraham is accounted as righteous in chapter 15. He actually tries to accomplish the promise by having sex with Hagar in chapter 16. He has eventually has Isaac as a fulfillment of promise in chapter 17, still being credited righteous apart from works. In Galatians Paul actually uses Isaac and Ishmael as the difference between righteousness as provided by works versus through god’s Promise. As stated it’s not till chapter 21 when Abraham attempts to sacrifice Isaac. If reading James and Paul in the full context of the text of Genesis is somehow redefining scripture then ok. I guess context isn’t important to catholic apologetics.
 
The quote from Romans is hilarious. Apparently you didn’t make it to Chapter 3 which states that no one is righteous before the law and introduces the concept that we are righteous by faith apart from the law.
 
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Sean77 said:
The quote from Romans is hilarious. Apparently you didn’t make it to Chapter 3
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Romans 3, where Saint Paul states we are not justified by circumcision; yeah,I have referenced that already. Do you know what Saint Paul means by ‘works of the law’?
 
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Romans 3:22-25 ESV
[22] … For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

You threw Romans 2 out there not realizing Paul condemned the gentiles for not having the law then to show that though the Jews have the law they are transgressors of it and equally condemned by it. His point concludes by showing none are righteous except by faith.

You are way out of context as you demonstrated.
 
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There are many Christians who say the right things, but do they do the right thing?
Practing the Ten Commandments. That is what we are asked to do.
We need to ALWAYS do what God wants.
 
I agree. Our good works are not ours. We are saved by grace through faith, not through works. Our works are the result of salvation not the cause of it. This is why it was so disturbing to hear you say that you aren’t in heaven because you aren’t sanctified yet. You completely missed the fact that sanctification is the result of salvation not the cause of salvation.
 
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Sean77 said:
Our good works are not ours
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I did not say that. God does not force grace and works down our throats. He establishes an eternal, loving covenant with us if we allow Him. The works that we perform are our works, but they are only done with, through, and in Christ Who dwells in us.

Also, how come you keep avoiding my question regarding ‘works of the law’?
 
Sean77 said:
This is why it was so disturbing to hear you say that you aren’t in heaven because you aren’t sanctified yet
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That’s exactly why I am not in Heaven! I am not purified of sin! Nothing unclean will ever enter Heaven.
 
Works of the law means two things. Good works according to the siniatic covenant when it’s used in reference to Jews. Works that comport with gods natural law when in reference to gentiles. That’s why Paul can say gentiles are law to themselves when they follow the law even though they were not recipients of the siniatoc covenant. It’s also how both groups are equally condemned under the law.
 
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You’re not in heaven because you are alive. No place in scripture ever even hints that you will instantly go to heaven when you have arrived at sanctification. That’s why we are resurrected and then judged after having been in heaven awaiting the last day.
 
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Romans 2:14-16 ESV
[14] For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them [16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. …
 
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