How do Protestants deal with James on faith and works?

[guanophore]

I would substitute “Christian” for Catholic. The church today looks very little like the 1st Century church(s) to which the New Testament was written.

I don’t think so. The Apostles did to tolerate schism, division, and heresy. Those who embraced heresies were considered outsiders.

The NT Church had visible authority. It was organized around the Apostles and their successors, the Bishops.

If you mean that there was chaos, abuses, and disorganization such as in the Church in Corinth, then I agree.

For Luther and Calvin and the early reformers works are a part of faith just as much as breathing is part of being alive.

Yes, they both retained Catholic Teaching on this point, what shifted was how salvation was defined. But yes, salvation is the hand that moves the glove through which the good works are completed.

One of the catch phrases I remember from my youth is “Saved to serve”. We are saved (regenerated/born again/justified) in order to serve God and minister to our fellow man. It seems to me that the Catholic church has it backwards. Instead of “saved to serve” the Catholic church teaching seems to “serve to be saved”.

No, this is indeed Catholic teaching. I think what you are describing is a great many poorly catechized Catholics, who have an insufficient understanding of grace, and how the works we do relate to that grace. Many work "on " salvation rather than working “out” salvation (living out what is already within), thereby making a shipwreck of their faith.

It is certainly something we could benefit from through our separated brethren! I personally have, sojourning among them for 20 some years gave me a much clearer understanding of my Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

That ^^^ is an addition to Scripture! Those are your added words to the epistle of Saint James.

Especially when there were no “men” present to see the act! They were alone on the mountain!

 

[lanman87]

Especially when there were no “men” present to see the act! They were alone on the mountain!

If you know about it, then it was presented to you. You are a witness to the act through the Scriptures.

 

[AugustTherese]

There is no doubt in my mind that James meant that one is justified by works

I appreciate this. Even if we disagree before whom we are justified, I at least appreciate your willingness to admit this.

However, if James meant that one is justified by works before God, this causes a problem seeing how the Apostle Paul was so adamant to say that no man is justified by doing good works

Saint Paul never says, “[N]o man is justified by doing good works”! What Saint Paul states, is that no one is justified by ‘works of the law’, i.e. the Jewish Law of Ceremonial Rites (circumcision), and that no man is justified before God by works of his own! In fact, Saint Paul does say that we are justified by good works:

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified..” Romans 2:13

The works that we do, after having been freely justified by faith through grace in Holy Baptism, are done only through, with, in, and by the life of God (grace) within us. The works are not works of our own that Saint Paul condemns, but works done with the grace of God; those works, together with our faith, justifies us before God.

I urge you to mediate and pray over this Scripture concerning Saint Paul’s letters:

" And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:15-16

There are “hard things” to “understand” in Paul’s “letters”; justification is one of them. This is where you need to be docile to the Church Christ founded in helping you understand that hard things of Saint Paul.

 

[AugustTherese]

If you know about it, then it was presented to you. You are a witness to the act through the Scriptures.

Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac to be justified before you, or anyone else. I, nor you, did not test Abraham; God alone did. To be justified before men is an abominable act of the Pharisees:

“You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God”. Luke 16:15

 

[AugustTherese]

I’m confused. First you ask me to substantiate that the Catholic church separates faith and works and then you say the can be separated?

I am asking you to substantiate the claim where the Catholic Church supposedly separates faith from works in the way you presented it.

 

[AugustTherese]

Either Eternal Life in Christ is a free gift that we receive by Grace through Faith. Or Eternal Life something we get by Grace through Faith plus “serving to be saved”

The words ‘Either’ and ‘Or’ I highlighted. You are separating faith and works into this either/or dichotomy when it comes to justification. You are saying it’s either this or that. I am asking you, why can’t it be both/and, especially how Scripture presents it. Eternal Life in Christ is a free gift that we receive by grace through faith. However, once we have received this free gift of faith, we must cooperate with it and bear fruit unto life everlasting:

“Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together.” John 4:36

 

[tgGodsway]

The works that we do, after having been freely justified by faith through grace in Holy Baptism, are done only through, with, in, and by the life of God (grace) within us. The works are not works of our own that Saint Paul condemns, but works done with the grace of God; those works, together with our faith, justifies us before God.

I’m guessing that only the Jews can be saved with this statement. Circumcision was the seal, agreed, but the whole law was required for eternal salvation. Every Jew knew this. “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2:10. Paul’s argument in Rom. 2:13 was designed (in it’s context) to show the utter hopelessness to be saved by keeping the law. The law offers no power to save. Only faith in Christ work justifies the ungodly.
I agree with you on one point. The works that we do, after having been freely justified by faith through grace in holy baptism, are done only through, with, in, and by the life of God WITHIN us.

 

[AugustTherese]

Paul’s argument in Rom. 2:13 was designed (in it’s context) to show the utter hopelessness to be saved by keeping the law

In it’s context? No, he is saying what he is saying. How is keeping the law possible? By having the life of God within us. If Christ is within us, we can do anything, even keeping the law, through Him who strengthens us. And, yes, without faith in Christ, without being reborn in Holy Baptism, without having grace within us, yes, absolutely, keeping the law is utterly hopeless! Hence, our need for Christ always!

 

[guanophore]

If you know about it, then it was presented to you. You are a witness to the act through the Scriptures.

Yes, after the fact, and long after Abraham was justified by his actions. “before men” is an addition to scripture. It is done to avoid the Catholic teaching that works justify us before God.

At best it is an inference

Is this not the case with all of our “doctrinal distinctives”?

if James meant that one is justified by works before God, this causes a problem seeing how the Apostle Paul was so adamant to say that no man is justified by doing good works.

But Paul did not say this. He was not referring to ergos hagios. Good Works are a movement from the Holy Spirit that are produced in us by the grace that saves us. This is why they bring justification. We are justified by grace, through faith. This flows through the ergos hagios that we were saved to do.

 

[guanophore]

Well, for this particular topic there is a dichotomy. Either Eternal Life in Christ is a free gift that we receive by Grace through Faith. Or Eternal Life something we get by Grace through Faith plus “serving to be saved”, which means it is not a free gift.

I think you misunderstand the concept of serving to be saved. The good works that God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them are moved in us by the same grace that saves us. The grace is a gift, the faith is a gift, and the ergos hagios are a gift.

 

[tgGodsway]

This is why they bring justification. We are justified by grace, through faith. This flows through the ergos hagios that we were saved to do.

I have no argument to how works play it’s part to justify. I agree with James. good works do justify. but it is not the kind of justification before God leading to eternal life. Nor do we find James discussing the merits to eternal life in chapter 2. Abraham received eternal life in Gen. 15, not Genesis 22. But who could recognize the seed planted in his heart until, or unless, it showed up in his works when he offered his only son on the altar in Gen. 22. Though Genesis doesn’t talk about Abraham in terms of justification, James does. It was Gen. 22 where Abraham became the friend of God. This was a justifying comfort to all.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with James. good works do justify. but it is not the kind of justification before God leading to eternal life.

It is your perogative to depart from what the Apostles taught. Everybody is doing it!

It is a fad today.

But who could recognize the seed planted in his heart until, or unless, it showed up in his works when he offered his only son on the altar in Gen. 22.

I think there is a good argument to support that Abraham was the one who needed to “know”, and that he had to be persuaded that he was justified before God.

 

[lanman87]

“You are those who justify yourselves before men , but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God”. Luke 16:15

The problem with the pharisees was that they acted one way and their heart was another way. If one’s heart has been changed and is right with God then you will not seek to “justify yourself before men”. If our motivation is for others to go “Wow, look how righteous he is” then our hearts are not right. If our motivation is to bring praise and glory to God through our good works then others will see our works and be encouraged by our works. They will see our faith in action. Just as we see Abraham’s faith in action.

 

[lanman87]

The grace is a gift, the faith is a gift, and the ergos hagios are a gift.

Yes, but if doing the ergos hagios are a condition of the gift of Eternal Life then eternal life really isn’t a gift, it is something you earned.

 

[AugustTherese]

I agree with James. good works do justify. but it is not the kind of justification before God leading to eternal life

“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?”. James 2:14

‘Can that faith save him’, is a direct alluding to ‘eternal life’.

 

[AugustTherese]

If one’s heart has been changed and is right with God then you will not seek to “justify yourself before men”

Then why do you suggest that Saint James is referring to justification before men, and not before God?

 

[lanman87]

Then why do you suggest that Saint James is referring to justification before men, and not before God?

The key word is “seek”. We aren’t to be like the pharisees and boast in our “holiness”. That is a self righteousness that is not of God. We are instead, to quietly live a life of faith, but that faith is a living faith that gives evidence in how we live our life. We don’t help the poor so others will see us and think better of us. We don’t help the poor so God will see us and give us favor. We help the poor because we trust and love God and want to please and honor Him and because His Spirit gives us a desire and burden to help the poor and needy. We are to let our light shine, with gives evidence of our faith, not for our glory (like the Pharisees did) but for the Glory of God. So while others do see our Good Works and they testify and give evidence of our faith, it is all for the Glory of God and not some self righteousness/self promoting agenda, which is what the Pharisees were doing.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, but if doing the ergos hagios are a condition of the gift of Eternal Life then eternal life really isn’t a gift, it is something you earned.

Ergos Hagios cannot, by nature, be a condition of the gift of free life in Christ. They cannot occur without that gift having already been given.

“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?”. James 2:14

Saving faith is a faith that works. On that I think we can all agree.

 

[AugustTherese]

We aren’t to be like the pharisees and boast in our “holiness”. That is a self righteousness that is not of God. We are instead, to quietly live a life of faith, but that faith is a living faith that gives evidence in how we live our life. We don’t help the poor so others will see us and think better of us. We don’t help the poor so God will see us and give us favor. We help the poor because we trust and love God and want to please and honor Him and because His Spirit gives us a desire and burden to help the poor and needy. We are to let our light shine, with gives evidence of our faith, not for our glory (like the Pharisees did) but for the Glory of God. So while others do see our Good Works and they testify and give evidence of our faith, it is all for the Glory of God and not some self righteousness/self promoting agenda, which is what the Pharisees were doing.

Absolutely flawless and beautiful!