How do Protestants deal with the KKK legacy?

[kalt]

Many Protestants on these boards have brought up the inquisitions which happened centuries ago. I wonder how they deal with the much closer (in time) KKK episodes in their own churches.

I’m not bringing this up today to talk about the Protestants’ acceptance of and participation in such an anti-Christian group. I bring it up today to ask, why, when Protestants bring up the Inquisitions of centuries ago, they don’t also bring up the organized attacks by the KKK, when many members of their Protestant churches today were members of the KKK when it perpetrated these atrocities and controlled the police headquarters, city halls, and state houses–when it had influence over the organizations that could have stopped the attacks.

Of course the KKK goes back further than the civil rights era–back to before people still alive today were born. So I’m talking only about the KKK atrocities perpetrated more recently.

How does the Protestant Christian community address this issue? Is it ever mentioned in sermons? Have former KKK members been asked to speak at Bible studies or other church-organized events? Have the churches made formal statements renouncing the KKK and accepting responsibility when appropriate (when their own congregants/ministers) were participants or supporters(members)?

And for individuals who belong to a church that had ministers and congregants involved, especially those who were actively involved (not just supporters (ie members), do you feel like you still have to prove that things are different now? Do you think that someone’s reluctance to accept that things have really changed so soon after the events (people who committed the acts are still alive) is justified?

Please, I’m not starting this thread to attack Protestantism over the evil of the KKK. I’m asking only to find out how Protestantism is dealing with this very recent episode in its history.

I would love to know how the CC dealt with the inquisitions after the fact. If they were asked to explain the behavior. I’m thinking that they probably weren’t. News traveled much more slowly then, and I wouldn’t be surprised, given the very small number of executions in any given year, that people outside of the immediate areas that were targeted would have very little knowledge of what happened. Without mass media, I wonder if people outside of the cities got much information about anything. If anyone knows, please post here.

 

[Darron_Steele]

Wow! This is pretty toxic.

It looks like an attempt at `tit for tat.’ You must have looked pretty hard for something that could be made to appear anything like the Inquisitions.

There is one important difference: the KKK was a socio-political group. It got support from congregations, but it was not an institution of any of them. The Inquisition was an institution sponsored by the Catholic church.

It might make you feel better do try to allege a strong parallel. Non-Catholics, however, will not be impressed.

Now, as for “Protestants” who “have brought up the inquisitions which happened centuries ago” I prefer a different route: ask them if they are aware that it is the 2000’s.

Anytime someone wants to criticize a group of people for things that happened hundreds of years ago, they are living in the past and not the present. Obviously, if they need fodder from hundreds of years ago, they do not have a whole lot that is current.

Also, they need to quit nursing grudges over things that happened centuries ago. It does not accord with the documented teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jon_Hus]

Not sure if this is going to be helpful kalt or not. My wife graduated from a state university last spring with a MA degree. Several times during her study I went with her to visit the campus library. I noticed that even this secular state owned college had 1000s of books on the Christian faith and history of the church. I was surprised to see that many of the books were written from a christian prespective, not all were from writers hostile to the faith.

May I suggest that you investigate your local university library? Curl up with a few books on the KKK/Baptists and the inquisitions after the fact. Then, bask in the knowledge of knowing a little more than an internet forums posters opinion on the matter.

Happy reading,
Jon

 

[AmericanJosiah]

.

I’m not aware that the KKK was made up of an unusual percentage of Lutherans…

I think the Inquasition was managed exclusively by Catholics.

Athough I leave this whole thing alone, I think the point of some bringing up The Catholic Church’s role in events like that is vis-a-vis the claim of The Catholic Church alone to infallibility and unaccountability. Since no other denomination in the world claims such for self, it’s kind of a moot point when applied to them. But I agree - all this is ancient history, NONE is infallible or unaccountable or what they say or do, and that goes for The Catholic Church too (which is one reason why I left The Catholic Church).

.

 

[KathleenGee]

The documents of the Inquisition were finally opened in and around 2003. I have not read them. I read an account of these documents that supported knowledgeable Catholics’ perception…the Catholic Dominicans, as most clerics, keep detailed documents of events.

These documents revealed that the Church spent most time exonerating and freeing most if not many of the accused.

Anyone who has working knowledge of the Church always knows there is a church, or a diocese, or a region that is hard headed and no matter how much the clergy preach, the laity will not listen.

The abuses were committed by lay people. And you have to also know the history of Spain. It was plundered for 700 years, battling to keep its faith. For a period of time, the Christians were labelled dhimmi in their own land.

The history of racism in this country is very well known throughout the world. And it was in a region of our country that was considered very religious and devoted to the bible.

In fact, it was because of this dimension of Christianity that the founders decided there would be separation of state, no acknowledgement of a particular religion, but freedom of religious expression.

I am now living in a state that harbored Klu Klux Klan. They used to come up to my former Catholic parish wearing their white robes and on horses…Fourteen year old boys through rocks at them and they ran off. This state was the only one with the vote of the people to shut down private schools, targeting Catholic ones, but these schools stayed open, and the case taken to the Supreme Court and they lost.

But the neighborhoods here had laws that blacks could not move into certain neighborhoods up into the sixties. And they had caricatures of black people on business signs. There are homes here in town that will not accept a blackperson into their home. I know because I work in home health.

My grandmother and grandfather were descendents of a plantation…and a great great uncle had the most slaves when his state was a territory. My grandmother would say she was a Christian, didn’t go to church, but still used names of blacks. My cousin and I talked about it a few years ago, finally unearthing alot of memories. My father was a devout Catholic, my mother converted and she was total opposite. We didn’t move out when African Americans moved to our neighborhood.

But yes, the blight of racism and slavery in this country is used as the symbol of Christianity in this country by the militant atheists and secularists. And the abuse of the Inquisition is used against Catholics.

By the way, the fellows that pulled the Inquisition, and ‘embellished’ it, were part of the Stone Campbell movement, Americans, from the 1800’s of the past century. So you also have to consider the source.

Finally, Pope Pius XII was smeared. You can go to www.pavetheway.org. They began researching him. They are Jewish. When they were allowed open access to Church documents, always there for the public to see, they were taken by how much Pius had done for the Jews. They researched further, and his smear began with the play, ‘The Deputy’. The playwright was set up by the KGB. First it was a very long play, and then reduced to 6 hours, but an art form does very well in moving peoples’ emotions. Just as movies do about racism in our country and using cariacatures of Christians and the institution of the Catholic Church.

 

[JustaServant]

Many Protestants on these boards have brought up the inquisitions which happened centuries ago. I wonder how they deal with the much closer (in time) KKK episodes in their own churches.

I’m not bringing this up today to talk about the Protestants’ acceptance of and participation in such an anti-Christian group. I bring it up today to ask, why, when Protestants bring up the Inquisitions of centuries ago, they don’t also bring up the organized attacks by the KKK, when many members of their Protestant churches today were members of the KKK when it perpetrated these atrocities and controlled the police headquarters, city halls, and state houses–when it had influence over the organizations that could have stopped the attacks.

Of course the KKK goes back further than the civil rights era–back to before people still alive today were born. So I’m talking only about the KKK atrocities perpetrated more recently.

How does the Protestant Christian community address this issue? Is it ever mentioned in sermons? Have former KKK members been asked to speak at Bible studies or other church-organized events? Have the churches made formal statements renouncing the KKK and accepting responsibility when appropriate (when their own congregants/ministers) were participants or supporters(members)?

And for individuals who belong to a church that had ministers and congregants involved, especially those who were actively involved (not just supporters (ie members), do you feel like you still have to prove that things are different now? Do you think that someone’s reluctance to accept that things have really changed so soon after the events (people who committed the acts are still alive) is justified?

Please, I’m not starting this thread to attack Protestantism over the evil of the KKK. I’m asking only to find out how Protestantism is dealing with this very recent episode in its history.

I would love to know how the CC dealt with the inquisitions after the fact. If they were asked to explain the behavior. I’m thinking that they probably weren’t. News traveled much more slowly then, and I wouldn’t be surprised, given the very small number of executions in any given year, that people outside of the immediate areas that were targeted would have very little knowledge of what happened. Without mass media, I wonder if people outside of the cities got much information about anything. If anyone knows, please post here.

Many Fundamentalist heroes of the past were VERY sympathetic to the Klan. William Bell Reilly, Bob Jones Sr. (one of the buildings on his campus is named after a Klan grand dragon), Bob Schuler, Frank Norris and many others.
Having said that, keep in mind not all Protestants would identify themselves with the fundamentalist movement. Historical context must be taken into consideration as well. This was primarily at that time a Protestant natiion.
The KKK of the post-Civil War era had different goals in mind than the KKK of the turn of the 20th century. The massive wave of immigration brought not just Catholics, but many of the Jewish faith to these shores.
Extremism begets extremism, no matter what side of the Tiber one is on.
So I don’t think it is quite fair to lay the legacy of the KKK at the Protestant doorstep.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think you’ve had an answer already. . .

The Inquisition is considered something that the big bad Catlicks did to kill off 'millions of Protestants". Actual knowledge of the Inquisition is virtually unknown except for the often wildly inaccurate pseudohistory fed to protestants.

But the KKK. . .oh, that’s a real NIMBY, ya know? They can pretend that since it wasn’t limited to say ‘only’ the Southern Baptists that the fact that the members were protestant AND that they specifically target Jews, Catholics, and blacks had nothing to do with their ‘religion’. . .whereas of course the Inquisition had EVERYTHING to do with the ‘catholicism’ of those involved.

And they can cry, “unfair!” or claim that the subject is an ‘attack’.

Well, silly us. Why didn’t we Catholics realize that all we had to do was start discussing the Protestant KKK back in, say, 1870, before they started to diss Catholics on the Inquisition? Heck, if we had ONLY been the first ones to bring up a subject, then we could greet Protestant discussion of the Inquisition with "Well of course you’re only bringing this up to attack us because we had been discussing YOUR tangled history in the KKK’.

We didn’t realize that discussion of certain aspects of Protestant history would be considered an attack itself. Mea culpa!

 

[shawn38]

Many Protestants on these boards have brought up the inquisitions which happened centuries ago. I wonder how they deal with the much closer (in time) KKK episodes in their own churches.

)

There’s a difference in sponsorship. The order and support for the inquisitions (Episcopal Inquisition (1184–1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s) and West African Slave Trade (Dum diversas and Romanus Pontifex) routes went out by papal bull. All of these situations were horrible. Are the people who conduct such acts christians? No. They will have their day in court.

Let me add that I don’t hold the past against Catholics people. I don’t think a true loving Christian would conduct such atrocities.

 

[Orchanian]

.

I’m not aware that the KKK was made up of an unusual percentage of Lutherans…

I think the Inquasition was managed exclusively by Catholics.

Athough I leave this whole thing alone, I think the point of some bringing up The Catholic Church’s role in events like that is vis-a-vis the claim of The Catholic Church alone to infallibility and unaccountability. Since no other denomination in the world claims such for self, it’s kind of a moot point when applied to them. But I agree - all this is ancient history, NONE is infallible or unaccountable or what they say or do, and that goes for The Catholic Church too (which is one reason why I left The Catholic Church).

.

The Church doesn’t claim infallibility on everything or unaccountability (at all). Infallibility (often misunderstood) is limited to specific teachings. It does not mean the absence of sin. It is not limited only to the Pope, but also belongs to the Magisterium of the Church who, in unity with the Pope, teach a doctrine as true. Once a doctrine is defined in this way, it cannot be changed. Two verses that support infallibility are Luke 10:16 and Matt 18:18.

The inquisition was not a teaching of the Church. The Church is, unfortunately, made up of human beings. And we human beings don’t always do what is pleasing in the sight of the Lord. History has shown us that nobody has a market on sinful behavior. Christians have killed other Christians, Muslims have killed other Muslims, and Muslims have killed Christians, and so on, and so on. God weeps. We must admit that we have not always done what serves God. Think about St. Paul. In his zeal, he killed and persecuted Christians. God showed him that this was misguided zeal and Paul became a great evangelist. We can accept and admit the sins of those in the Church without giving up on the Church that Christ founded.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The Very Rev. Fr. Coyle, pastor of the (now) St. Paul’s Cathedral in my hometown, was murdered by the pastor of First Methodist Church–a member of the clan–for marrying his daughter to a Catholic.

 

[Mark77]

**These arguments are designed & promoted to tear down Christianity!

"Throw out the baby with the bathwater!"**

To argue that Catholicism is false because Catholics & it’s Clergy are all flawed sinners & continue to be to this day, is a totally invalid argument.

To try to smear Protestants by bringing up the KKK connection is invalid as well, for the same reasons & is falling right into the trap set by the atheists and non believers to denigrate all Christians; “Divide & Conquer!”

**Sure we are all sinners, we all make mistakes & are selfish. The real question is;“Do you believe Jesus Christ is our Lord & Savior?”

If the answer is yes, then which religion contains the fullness of His Truth, without error or omission?**

i believe it is the Catholic Faith!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[adstrinity]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the KKK to the Inquisition. The KKK’s agenda was anti-God from the get-go, the Inquisition’s purpose was to help Christians.

 

[kalt]

There’s a difference in sponsorship. The order and support for the inquisitions (Episcopal Inquisition (1184–1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s) and West African Slave Trade (Dum diversas and Romanus Pontifex) routes went out by papal bull. All of these situations were horrible. Are the people who conduct such acts christians? No. They will have their day in court.

Let me add that I don’t hold the past against Catholics people. I don’t think a true loving Christian would conduct such atrocities.

We understand the hierarchical differences between the Catholic Church and the Protestant church(es), and that, even if every Protestant signed-on to something, it can never be considered a “Protestant church order”, since every church and every individual acts independantly and doesn’t answer to an authority save his own conscience.

However, the question isn’t about who ordered these acts, or even if there was an explicit order. (Though having a statement/order from the ministers (collectively) to members stating that the KKK is an evil that no Protestant should take part in would go a long way in proving that it wasn’t tacitly approved.) The question is, “How are Protestants dealing with the KKK legacy?”

To address issues others brought up -

As another poster pointed out, Protestants had formed the KKK before the civil rights era, and targets were the immigrant Catholics and Jews who they believed were impure and had no right to be here, hold office, etc. In the civil rights era, the Protestant KKK members still hated Catholics and Jews (among many), but their most important target was the AA population, especially the “uppity” members of the race.

Someone also said that we have to keep in mind that America was a Protestant country then. Well, the Catholic Church was 100 percent Catholic during the inquisitions. It’s not like the fact that the country was predominantly Protestant means that that’s why Protestants belonged as opposed to Catholics. Catholics were the victims. Protestants formed the KKK because they were Protestant, not because there were few others in the country. They were Protestant and wanted to preserve by law or force, if laws failed, as the default setting for the country, their religion/way of thinking/life. (Sounds a lot like ensuring that doctrinal error isn’t being spread, huh? )

At any rate, the question is “How are Protestants dealing with the KKK legacy?”

Those who don’t want this topic to be discussed will, rather than answer a very simple question, accuse the OP of having an agenda.

I’m sure there are Protestants on the board who can see that this is not a baiting question to start a debate about what the KKK did as compared to the inquisitions. I would like to know how Protestants today address the KKK issue, if they do at all. And that’s all. No agenda. I’m not even asking why you don’t, if you don’t. I’m just asking how you do, if you do.

 

[kalt]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the KKK to the Inquisition. The KKK’s agenda was anti-God from the get-go, the Inquisition’s purpose was to help Christians.

And I want to add that I didn’t ask the question to compare the two. I asked how Protestants deal with the KKK legacy today. Protestants routinely bring up the inquisisitons here, but don’t mention the KKK. They ask us to address the inquisitions which happened centuries ago, so I’m wondering how they address the KKK legacy in their own churches. I’m not asking them to explain the Protestant KKK members’ actions. To justify the actions. I’m not saying that the Protestant KKK is proof that the Protestant churches aren’t Christian. I’m not making any claims against the Protestant churches that supported the KKK through membership(support) or participation of its ministers and members like the Protestants do against the Catholic Church. I’m doing nothing like that. I’m simply asking how they deal with the Protestant KKK legacy. It’s a simple question with no agenda.

 

[JustaServant]

To address issues others brought up -

As another poster pointed out, Protestants had formed the KKK before the civil rights era, and targets were the immigrant Catholics and Jews who they believed were impure and had no right to be here, hold office, etc. In the civil rights era, the Protestant KKK members still hated Catholics and Jews (among many), but their most important target was the AA population, especially the “uppity” members of the race.

Someone also said that we have to keep in mind that America was a Protestant country then. Well, the Catholic Church was 100 percent Catholic during the inquisitions. It’s not like the fact that the country was predominantly Protestant means that that’s why Protestants belonged as opposed to Catholics. Catholics were the victims. Protestants formed the KKK because they were Protestant, not because there were few others in the country. They were Protestant and wanted to preserve by law or force, if laws failed, as the default setting for the country, their religion/way of thinking/life. (Sounds a lot like ensuring that doctrinal error isn’t being spread, huh?

I think if you study the history of the leaders of the KKK you will find it hard to call them even remotely ‘christian’.
Their was a social upheavel at the beginning of the 20th century. Remember these were the days of Presbyterian fundamentalist Billy Sunday and Prohibition. (Sunday BTW, was a liberal Democrat. ) It also marked the birth pangs of fundamentalism in America, which was a Protestant movement. But not all Protestants alligned themselves with it. If you do some research, you will find the Protestants who were part of the KKK were primarily fundamentalists.
A better question might be: how do fundamentalists and modern evangelicals deal with the KKK legacy.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

The history of religious conflict is littered with dead bodies and blood soaked into the ground. The KKK grew out of post-Civil War frustration on the part of poor whites in the south. They were, probably, all Protestant, since they had hate left over for Catholics and Jews. However, the Protestant movement was already hundreds of years old, and spread throughout many parts of the world, not just the American south.

Protestants, especially the Congregationalists, in the north were responsible for most of the abolition movement, they supported the underground railroads, and sheltered escaped slaves.

I don’t know the extent of Catholic support of the abolitionist movement, but I would be glad to learn more. The Catholic church at the time was relatively smaller than it is now, and then mostly a recent immigrant church, so it may not have produced important abolitionists, but I would be very happy to learn more.

The Spanish Inquisition was apparently mostly a lay activity conducted by civil authorities. The only credible source showing the Catholic church involved is a Monty Python sketch.

Lower the temperature. Just about every religion has had its share of extremist followers.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I think if you study the history of the leaders of the KKK you will find it hard to call them even remotely ‘christian’.
Their was a social upheavel at the beginning of the 20th century. Remember these were the days of Presbyterian fundamentalist Billy Sunday and Prohibition. (Sunday BTW, was a liberal Democrat. ) It also marked the birth pangs of fundamentalism in America, which was a Protestant movement. But not all Protestants alligned themselves with it. If you do some research, you will find the Protestants who were part of the KKK were primarily fundamentalists.
A better question might be: how do fundamentalists and modern evangelicals deal with the KKK legacy.

Never been a member and never known anyone who was. Not applicable to me or my church

 

[JustaServant]

Never been a member and never known anyone who was. Not applicable to me or my church

Nevertheless your fundamentalist forebearers, to whom I am sure are considered ‘heroes’ to your group, were pretty chummy with the Klan. Bob Jones Sr. is the most nortorious. One of the buildings on his campus is named after a state govenor and Klan grand dragon. The racism of his school continues to this very day.
Another ‘hero’ of fundamentalism was William Bell Reilly who not only was a supporter of the Klan (if they were members, they curiously kept it quiet), he also supported the infamous Protocols of Zion.
Nobody is laying this at your particular doorstep. Certainly their were Protestants who opposed the Klan. But the relationship between historic fundamentalism and the KKK cannot be easily dodged.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Nevertheless your fundamentalist forebearers, to whom I am sure are considered ‘heroes’ to your group, were pretty chummy with the Klan. Bob Jones Sr. is the most nortorious. One of the buildings on his campus is named after a state govenor and Klan grand dragon. The racism of his school continues to this very day.
Another ‘hero’ of fundamentalism was William Bell Reilly who not only was a supporter of the Klan (if they were members, they curiously kept it quiet), he also supported the infamous Protocols of Zion.
Nobody is laying this at your particular doorstep. Certainly their were Protestants who opposed the Klan. But the relationship between historic fundamentalism and the KKK cannot be easily dodged.

We are an independent church. As I have said repeatedly, we were founded by an unchurched atheist who was converted. I have never been to Bob Jones University or South Carolina. I have never heard anyone talk about Bob Jones. I am familiar with his school because of the South Carolina primary and the emphasis placed on whether or not candidates attend. Like I said, it is not applicable.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Nevertheless your fundamentalist forebearers, to whom I am sure are considered ‘heroes’ to your group, were pretty chummy with the Klan. Bob Jones Sr. is the most nortorious. One of the buildings on his campus is named after a state govenor and Klan grand dragon. The racism of his school continues to this very day.
Another ‘hero’ of fundamentalism was William Bell Reilly who not only was a supporter of the Klan (if they were members, they curiously kept it quiet), he also supported the infamous Protocols of Zion.
Nobody is laying this at your particular doorstep. Certainly their were Protestants who opposed the Klan. But the relationship between historic fundamentalism and the KKK cannot be easily dodged.

I suppose if we’re going to look for denominational failures, then I may as well add Aparthied in South Africa to the list. By and large the Dutch Reformed Church gave its spiritual imprimatur to aparthied.

And we could go on - Henry VIII’s bloodthirstiness, Cromwell’s massacre of the Irish, Luther’s violent polemic to slaughter peasants and Catholics.

However I don’t see the point in making current generations responsible for past abuses. I’m a real cynic when it comes to these official apologies for past abuses carried out by others. For example, not long ago we had our PM apologise to the aboriginal people for past abuses, not one of which he caused himself. But at the same time we kill 100,000 of our own unborn children every year, and no one apologises to them, or does much to stop the immense slaughter.

Anyone can apologise for someone else’s behaviour after the event. So what? Let the perpetrators themselves take the responsibility, in not in this world, then certainly in the next.