How do protestants determine heresy?

[Tiberius1701]

I find that your argument is mostly combative toward anything you perceive to be Protestant. I don’t wish to argue with you about this in long condescending dialogues due to the fact that Protestants like myself are much more likely to be kicked out of here for arguing than those like yourself. I simply showed where Jesus plainly in the Greek did not use the same word when dealing with Peter and then to deal with the foundation of the Church. Period. That is the fact. Say what you wish about dialects or Protestants trying to undermine the pope or whatever else you wish to throw at this but the facts are right there in Scripture.

The whole point, Kyle, is that it’s not “two words.” You define a word as something spelled differently. But that’s not how words are defined in Greek or dozens of other languages. Petr- is the root-word. -a and -os are merely word-endings, aka suffixes, denoting gender. petra and petros are the same word. Period.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Since it is a common Protestant belief that the Antichrist is the office of the Papacy, I suspect that most non-Catholic Christians believe the Catholic Church is the primary heresy. While I cannot speak for the actual Protestant teachings on heresy, it seems to me they are quite confused on the subject, since they are unaware of their own heresy.

Krakatoa,

Please get your facts straight before posting such an offensive accusation against Protestants and non-Catholics.

I am an Anglican Catholic in the Anglican Communion; and I do not believe the Pope is the anti-Christ or that the Catholic Church is “primary heresy.”

Granted, there are some Protestant Churches that teach the false idea that Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox are not Christians–but that is not a belief held by all Protestants.

Also, this thread is not about whether or not “Protestants are unaware of their own heresy.” The question of the OP is: How do protestants determine heresy?

Peace,
Anna

 

[MarkBrown]

You should change your user name to Krakasmile! Protestants don’t believe the pope is the antichrist, maybe some before 1930, and no denominations teach it. That would be a heresy. If you can’t speak on actual Protestant teachings then don’t. Protestants look to Scripture to determine heresies, if you have any specifics feel free to ask.

As a former protestant pastor/anglican priest, I can speak to actual protestant teachings.

If any person or church holds to the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 25, vi, states the Bishop of Rome is the antichrist. I sat in a PCA church in Pensacola which taught this as do many of the presbyterian and fundamental baptist, as well as other denominational churches teach this. I had friends who were Presbyterian pastors and Baptist pastors who still hold and teach this as fact. When I became an Anglican, my mentor, a presbyterian pastor, told me I was going to hell for joining the “little whore of babylon”. My grandfather was a Southern Baptist Convention pastor and association direction/missionary for about 60 years. He was the only SBC pastor in my area I know that did not teach that doctrine. He died in 2007. He was considered a liberal by the other SBC pastors in the area.

At the largest Baptist Church in my city, Pensacola, the pastor constantly mis-teaches catholic and calvinist beliefs. He has from the pulpit and I have heard in Sunday School classes anti catholic comments and teachings. On local tv and radio, protestant pastors of all denominations routinely teach/preach/proclaim anti catholic teachings such as Mary worship, anti-christ, whore of babylon etc. About 5 years ago, at Olive Baptist Church, the lead pastor, during a Christmas Eve service, when on about how Catholics got it wrong and worship Mary as the expense of Jesus. A Baptist friend of mine, when I told him I was converting to the Church, told me he was not happy about it, but he knew I was saved and God was probably moving me there as the Catholic Church needed the gospel.

I was constantly in trouble with my superiors and laity for being catholic friend as a pastor for not repeating this untruths.

Please do not try to say protestants do not teach these mistruths. JonNC, a fair and balanced Lutheran, has said how his confession has mistruths about catholicism in it and it saddens him. Protestants have been posting here for many years. So we know what is and is not taught in protestant churches. Many catholic on CAF are former protestants.

Mark

 

[JonNC]

As a former protestant pastor/anglican priest, I can speak to actual protestant teachings.

If any person or church holds to the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 25, vi, states the Bishop of Rome is the antichrist. I sat in a PCA church in Pensacola which taught this as do many of the presbyterian and fundamental baptist, as well as other denominational churches teach this. I had friends who were Presbyterian pastors and Baptist pastors who still hold and teach this as fact. When I became an Anglican, my mentor, a presbyterian pastor, told me I was going to hell for joining the “little whore of babylon”. My grandfather was a Southern Baptist Convention pastor and association direction/missionary for about 60 years. He was the only SBC pastor in my area I know that did not teach that doctrine. He died in 2007. He was considered a liberal by the other SBC pastors in the area.

At the largest Baptist Church in my city, Pensacola, the pastor constantly mis-teaches catholic and calvinist beliefs. He has from the pulpit and I have heard in Sunday School classes anti catholic comments and teachings. On local tv and radio, protestant pastors of all denominations routinely teach/preach/proclaim anti catholic teachings such as Mary worship, anti-christ, whore of babylon etc. About 5 years ago, at Olive Baptist Church, the lead pastor, during a Christmas Eve service, when on about how Catholics got it wrong and worship Mary as the expense of Jesus. A Baptist friend of mine, when I told him I was converting to the Church, told me he was not happy about it, but he knew I was saved and God was probably moving me there as the Catholic Church needed the gospel.

I was constantly in trouble with my superiors and laity for being catholic friend as a pastor for not repeating this untruths.

Please do not try to say protestants do not teach these mistruths. JonNC, a fair and balanced Lutheran, has said how his confession has mistruths about catholicism in it and it saddens him. Protestants have been posting here for many years. So we know what is and is not taught in protestant churches. Many catholic on CAF are former protestants.

Mark

I very much a gree, Mark. My biggest complaint is that these kinds of things aren’t taken off the table, so to speak. While in practice these kinds of things are rarely spoken of or taught by Lutherans, they remain in the confessions, while the fact is this isn’t 1535, its 2011, and much of what that language intended to portray either isn’t true anymore, or the usage/meaning of the words have changed.

Pope Benedict XVI is NEITHER the antiChrist, NOR antiChrist in his teaching or position.

Jon

 

[kylemccloughan]

When you respond in a quote, it makes it very hard to address all the points you raise.

Sorry

But Paul never mentioned it in Romans at the very time when Peter was in Rome. That is the crux of this. Something of this magnitude in Early Church history would have surely been first and foremost in Paul’s preaching to the Romans and we find that it exists nowhere. The Scriptures are silent on this. Period. That cannot be explained away.

 

[josephback]

I doubt that it is even close to true that it is a common protestant belief that the Pope is the antichrist. Most protestants, like the Orthodox Church, just doubt the Biblical authority of a supreme pontiff in Rome.

doctrine.

Luther called the Pope the anti-Christ, but happily that belief is going by the wayside Many of the various Protestant communities(from which I am a convert) are tripping over themselves to get along with Rome. And that will lead good places:yup: Re-union and assimilation

Acknowledging the authority of the Pope in any way, shape, or form has consequences. -Good ones

 

[kylemccloughan]

Luther called the Pope the anti-Christ, but happily that belief is going by the wayside Many of the various Protestant communities(from which I am a convert) are tripping over themselves to get along with Rome. And that will lead good places:yup: Re-union and assimilation

Acknowledging the authority of the Pope in any way, shape, or form has consequences. -Good ones

I do not share your opinion.

 

[ltwin]

While Protestants are happy to acknowledge the Pope as the bishop of Rome and the head of the Roman Catholic Church, that does not imply that they acknowledge his authority outside of the Roman Catholic Church so I guess you can celebrate the consequences of that if you want.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hmm??? I’m assuming that that was a joke.

Tongue in cheek. Sadly in many cases, it is not. Many groups nowadays would teach or accept something contrary to Catholic doctrine just because its unpopular, and they can possibly convert a few dissident Catholics because they went with the popular yet immoral stand on an issue.

You’re a better apologist than this.

I never claimed at any time I was an apologist.

Think about the fact the Lutherans and Catholics agree on the vast majority of doctrines. We both accept the first 7 councils, infant Baptism necessary for the forgiveness of sin, the real and substantial presence, and countless other things.

Jon

Then why be Lutheran if you completely agree with Catholics? The fact that there are Lutherans is because someone (ahem, Luther) thinks the Catholic Church was wrong on something. It has been a recurring theme for the last few centuries.

 

[JonNC]

=ConstantineTG;8095716]
I never claimed at any time I was an apologist.

I stand corrected.

Then why be Lutheran if you completely agree with Catholics?

I never claimed at any time I was in complete agreement with Catholics.

The fact that there are Lutherans is because someone (ahem, Luther) thinks the Catholic Church was wrong on something. It has been a recurring theme for the last few centuries.

Luther, and many others who were Lutheran reformers. But its not an all-or-nothing situation. Those things we agree on we must celebrate. THose things we have yet to reconcile we must prayerfully dialogue.

Jon

 

[ConstantineTG]

I stand corrected.

I never claimed at any time I was in complete agreement with Catholics.

Luther, and many others who were Lutheran reformers. But its not an all-or-nothing situation. Those things we agree on we must celebrate. THose things we have yet to reconcile we must prayerfully dialogue.

Jon

And that was my point. When people find something they disagree about Catholics, then suddenly its a “Catholic thing” and its what makes the Catholic Church evil or heretic in their eyes. Then someone puts up what is supposedly the true Church or the correct way of worshiping. No one of course can totally be in disagreement with the Catholic Church and still remain Christian.

 

[JonNC]

=ConstantineTG;8096564]And that was my point. When people find something they disagree about Catholics, then suddenly its a “Catholic thing” and its what makes the Catholic Church evil or heretic in their eyes. Then someone puts up what is supposedly the true Church or the correct way of worshiping.

Well, maybe for some. As I said before, we are more likely to use the term heterodox, or the phrase *error mixed with truth. * But the same could be said regarding Reformed. When I disagree regarding perseverence of saints, for example, as its a Calvinist thing, and its what makes them heterodox.

No one of course can totally be in disagreement with the Catholic Church and still remain Christian.

This of course is true, but could also be said of Lutherans or Anglicans, etc.

Jon

 

[josephback]

I do not share your opinion.

That acknowledging the Pope leads good places?

Oh how this thread has gotten off topic.

 

[kylemccloughan]

That acknowledging the Pope leads good places?

Oh how this thread has gotten off topic.

I just said that I don’t share your opinion. That’s all…

 

[x1980x]

There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to heresies, new ones are rehash of old ones.Our Lutheran Confessions condemn the errors of the Anabaptist, Schwenfeldians, New Arians, and the Anti-Trintarians.

Do your confessions still teach that Anabaptists should be forced with violence to accept your teachings? The fact that some Lutherans nominally believe this is a pain point for us.

 

[JonNC]

Do your confessions still teach that Anabaptists should be forced with violence to accept your teachings? The fact that some Lutherans nominally believe this is a pain point for us.

That was not in the confessions, but the practice was a tragic part of our history.

Jon

 

[ChurchAuthority]

kylemccloughan:
How did **Paul **die?
How did Peter die?

I have listened to Protestant theologian after Protestant theologian and they ALL say that Peter was crucified upside down and that Paul was beheaded - in ROME. Why are the Scriptures silent about this - and yet it is believed by many, if not most Protestant denominations?
One word:
TRADITION.

 

[Nicea325]

I doubt that it is even close to true that it is a common protestant belief that the Pope is the antichrist. Most protestants, like the Orthodox Church, just doubt the Biblical authority of a supreme pontiff in Rome.

Not entirely true about the Orthodox Church. You are stating the more current position of the Orthodox Church,but not the much older Orthodox Church. Many Eastern bishops did support the priamcy of Rome.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not entirely true about the Orthodox Church. You are stating the more current position of the Orthodox Church,but not the much older Orthodox Church. Many Eastern bishops did support the priamcy of Rome.

From what I understand is that the Eastern Churches always have viewed the Pope as the first among equals. Which means he does have some authority especially in a Church council, but not Supreme Authority as what it is today that the Pope can have direct authority in the Churches of the other Patriarchs. I don’t see that coincide with any Protestant view I know of.

 

[rinnie]

Can you show me where you get any of this from Scripture?

Sure but I doubt if it would help.

Christ said You are Peter and to you I give the keys to the kingdom. Now people will argue with me up and down that Jesus did not say this, But he did here is the scripture.

Matt 16:18 This scripture ties into Is. 22, 15-16 It means the keys of David which mean authority.

Next we do not have the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture.

Read Col 2:4 It will tell you Walk in the Lord rooted IN him and build UPON him and established int he faith as YOU WERE TAUGHT.

See that NO ONE captivate you with an empty seductive philosophy according to human tradition according to the elemental power of the world and not according to Christ.