How do protestants explain history

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That is what some times happens away from the Roman Catholic Church but they did the following

1- baptized babies
2- believed in the real presence of the Eucharist
3- believed in all 7 sacraments
4-believed you could loose your salvation no once saved always saved
5- believed marriage is permanent
No, you’re incorrect about the real presence, and the indissoluble nature of marriage. The Goa Christians believed the Eucharist was a symbol of Christ, and marriage was dissolvable. Those where errors that the Goa Christians believed prior to the Portuguese arrival. They called a synod to correct the errors called the Synod of Diamper. Research the synod and their condemnations.
 
If the view is not supported by historical evidence, not only the Protestant view is dismissed but any other view as well.
There is no “Protestant” view. The OP’s question may have been innocent enough but when “we” do answer we are dismissed and the personal comments that follow the “dismissal” tend to be rather insulting.

I stated that the history I’ve read. Including some of the “faith affirming history” that we’ve compared to a more “secular” understanding of history that has no interest in proving or dismissing religious beliefs.

I have found the “secular” histories of early Christianity more credible and truthful than the “religious history”…whether it be early Christianity as a whole, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Catharism, Quakerism,or Mormonism in particular, the secular is more credible still.
 
There is no “Protestant” view. The OP’s question may have been innocent enough but when “we” do answer we are dismissed and the personal comments that follow the “dismissal” tend to be rather insulting.

I stated that the history I’ve read. Including some of the “faith affirming history” that we’ve compared to a more “secular” understanding of history that has no interest in proving or dismissing religious beliefs.

I have found the “secular” histories of early Christianity more credible and truthful than the “religious history”…whether it be early Christianity as a whole, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Catharism, Quakerism,or Mormonism in particular, the secular is more credible still.
Like I said before: You are free to have your **personal **opinion. However, unless you can refute the historical facts given, all you are left with is an opinion or a preference of source that is more aligned to what you personally estimate to be more reliable. Even if, in reality and in evidentiary value, they are not.
 
Like I said before: You are free to have your **personal **opinion. However, unless you can refute the historical facts given, all you are left with is an opinion or a preference of source that is more aligned to what you personally estimate to be more reliable. Even if, in reality and in evidentiary value, they are not.
As stated friend Isaiah I have no interest in providing “you” evidence. The information and writings are readily available to anyone interested in the subject of the development of early Christianity. I have availed myself to that information for my own study and search of Truth. You of course you have your own personal beliefs which you find evidence fo as well.

We all form our personal understanding that color our world views that help us make choices concerning faith.
 
House belongs to the Wisconsin Evangelical Synod (Lutheran). They have no bishops let alone women bishops. Just saying.
Well, we have folks that are more or less bishops. We just don’t call them that. That would sound way too Catholic. That’s a bad word, please don’t say it around me.
 
Like I said before: You are free to have your **personal **opinion. However, unless you can refute the historical facts given, all you are left with is an opinion or a preference of source that is more aligned to what you personally estimate to be more reliable. Even if, in reality and in evidentiary value, they are not.
History is history whether Catholic Protestant secular even pagan or heretic. What matters is the recorded detail factual and objective, and is there sufficient detail to properly view the matter. Nothing wrong with comparing Christian with secular history for a perspective as long as both are true.

The Holy Bible is the overwhelmingly thorough and reliable resource for our history. But much has happened since then and the responsibility for the best report falls on the shoulders of those who saw and understood the events. 1500 years of history was recorded before the Reformation took place, none of those 1500 years belong to Protestant events or interpretations. For the remaining 600 years protestants have added to church history their own actions, thoughts, and experiences.
Beloved in Christ we must let history speak to us and objectively examine it. If we choose to cherry pick events to suit our own presuppositions we are being untruthful to our Lord, towards each other, and even to ourselves.

Example: earlier it was mentioned how Eskimos experienced Holy Mass in Newfoundland ca. 1000AD. How do we know? The Eskimos recorded the event using figurines, the means they used to observe history. Here is a picture of that figurine showing a priest wearing vestments and a cross. forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=19369&stc=1&d=1393199411
Did the Eskimo confess Father Son and Holy Ghost? Did he receive communion? Did he even understand the words of the homily? We can only hope so but we don’t know. What we do know from this record is that missionary priests went across the ocean, they risked their lives for Jesus, they tended to the farthest corners of the world. If we let history speak to us it should encourage us to do the same and judging from the spirit of this board it truly does.
 
As stated friend Isaiah I have no interest in providing “you” evidence. The information and writings are readily available to anyone interested in the subject of the development of early Christianity. I have availed myself to that information for my own study and search of Truth. You of course you have your own personal beliefs which you find evidence fo as well.

We all form our personal understanding that color our world views that help us make choices concerning faith.
Absolutely we all for our own personal understanding, with prejudices and all. However, I suspect I am not alone in having had the wrong concept and/or understanding of history. In other words, I have been wrong and might be wrong and will probably be wrong. However, I also use reason and just because I don’t like some facts or they don’t align with my personal choices - I am to discard them as not being true.

Further, when both our evidence collides - more likely than not, one of us is wrong. At that point we can look at things as preponderance of evidence and beyond a reasonable doubt evidence. If one of is happens to have beyond a reasonable doubt evidence, well then the matter is closed.

Not all truth is agnostic. While we might not be able to attain full knowledge of the truth, that doesn’t deny that we can attain elements of the truth - without falling into relativism, hopefully.
 
We all form our personal understanding that color our world views that help us make choices concerning faith.
But my friend there is only one truth about Christ’s Church, notwithstanding various opinions.
 
History is history whether Catholic Protestant secular even pagan or heretic. What matters is the recorded detail factual and objective, and is there sufficient detail to properly view the matter. Nothing wrong with comparing Christian with secular history for a perspective as long as both are true.

The Holy Bible is the overwhelmingly thorough and reliable **resource **for our history. But much has happened since then **and the responsibility for the best report falls on the shoulders of those who saw and understood the events. ** 1500 years of history was recorded before the Reformation took place, none of those 1500 years belong to Protestant events or interpretations. For the remaining 600 years protestants have added to church history their own actions, thoughts, and experiences.
Beloved in Christ we must let history speak to us and objectively examine it. If we choose to cherry pick events to suit our own presuppositions we are being untruthful to our Lord, towards each other, and even to ourselves.
Indeed

[bibledrb]1 Timothy 3:15[/bibledrb]

😃
 
Well, we have folks that are more or less bishops. We just don’t call them that. That would sound way too Catholic. That’s a bad word, please don’t say it around me.
Doesn’t that present a problem when saying the creeds that have the word catholic in them?
 
Well, we have folks that are more or less bishops. We just don’t call them that. That would sound way too Catholic. That’s a bad word, please don’t say it around me.
That made me chuckle. A couple years ago when our new District President visited our congregation, our Pastor introduced him as our new Bishop. He blushed a bit, but nobody in the congregation batted an eye. Everyone dutifully greeted him as Bishop as they left after the service. We are such obedient sheep - if our shepherd says it’s so, it is so. 😉
 
As friend Isaiah wrote when our views collide one of us is wrong…not completely wrong of course as we are viewing the same “evidence” and weighing the " preponderance" of “evidence”" to our best ability and to each of our own personal satisfaction. It the “personal weighing” that seems to separate us…it is T this junction we make personal choices concerning evidence…whether Catholic. Quaker. Orthodox, or Profestant of any other stripe…our choices ARE personal.
 
As friend Isaiah wrote when our views collide one of us is wrong…not completely wrong of course as we are viewing the same “evidence” and weighing the " preponderance" of “evidence”" to our best ability and to each of our own personal satisfaction. It the “personal weighing” that seems to separate us…it is T this junction we make personal choices concerning evidence…whether Catholic. Quaker. Orthodox, or Profestant of any other stripe…our choices ARE personal.
Truth is truth, whether your Orthodox, Protestant or whatever. It’s the dinosaur thing all over again.
 
I would say that they aren’t even Jon’s views. They have always been that of Lutheranism, just as Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism long for reunion amidst the often venomous polemics that we sinful creatures are so quick to spew. All sides act with limited charity at times, but the reality, at least for us Lutherans, remains essentially as Melancthon stated in his subscription to the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope:

Quote: “Regarding the Pope I hold that, if he would allow the Gospel, his superiority over the bishops which he has otherwise, is conceded to him by human right also by us, for the sake of the peace and general unity of those Christians who are also under him, and may be under him hereafter.”
This is charity? I am more than a little surprised that you would bring this quote up, because what it actually proves is nothing like what you must think. First of all, you didn’t post the source of the quote, which of course makes it ‘difficult’ to check, or at least it would have if I didn’t already know of it. What the quote actually proves is an unbelievable arrogance on the part of Melanchthon.

In regards to Melanchthon’s ‘attitude’ towards papal authority:

“Melanchthon’s letters during the summer of 1534 show much anxiety in regard to the peace and safety of the Church. He expresses the conviction that the commotions cannot be settled by human counsels. Only God can prevail. About the middle of the summer he wrote a long Opinion on the Settlement of the Controversies in Religion? He concedes that for the sake of harmony some abuses may be overlooked and condoned, but not those which destroy the necessary articles of faith, or are idolatrous, or drive men to open sin. He is willing that the government of the Pope, and of the bishops, shall remain for the sake of unity throughout the world, provided they do not abuse their authority by suppressing sound doctrine. He also favours common rites in the Church, but on the condition that such rites are to be regarded as indifferent things, which do not make for righteousness, and are not to be used to foster superstition. Confession may be retained, but an enumeration of sins must not be required. Justification is not bestowed on account of our contrition, or works, “but alone through the mercy of God apprehended by faith, that is, trust in Christ.” (Philip Melanchthon: The Protestant Preceptor of Germany, James William Richard [Lutheran], New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1898, 213 [online link] )

So – Melanchthon is ‘willing’ to allow the authority of the pope BUT ONLY under an astonishing set of conditions. In order for Lutherans to recognize the authority of the Pope, the Church had to capitulate and stop opposing what it considered to be heresy. Specifically, the Pope would be recognized IF the Church would allow ‘common rites’, but only if those common rites were to be regarded as indifferent things. In addition, the Lutherans would allow the Church to retain confession, but not unless the enumeration of sins were eliminated. Of course, justification by faith alone was a Lutheran requirement for recognition of the authority of the Pope. The Church could never agree to such conditions, but it is EXTREMELY telling that the Lutherans would even think to propose them.
And oh can forget Luther’s unquestionable stance on defending the Sacraments?

Quote: “I would rather drink pure blood with the Pope than mere wine with the Enthusiasts.”
Context is everything Steido. First of all you failed to document the source of this quote. It is from LW, Vol. 37, pg. 317, “Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper”, (1528). This tract was a response to Zwingli, with whom he was having a very heated debate over the nature of the Holy Eucharist. In fact, Zwingli had been accusing Luther of being a liar.

“Over and over again he roundly accuses Luther of “lying” and “falsehood,” though his language is not so lurid as his adversary’s.” Grisar, Vol. III, pg. 380 Luther considered Zwingli to be: “ a child of his loins " who had betrayed him.” Ibid, pg. 380 As a result of their disagreements: “Luther refused to recognize Zwingli and his followers as brothers, in spite of all the prayers of his opponents. He would not concede to them Christian brotherhood but merely “Christian charity,” that charity, moreover, which, as he declared, we owe even to our enemies.” Grisar, Vol. III, pg. 381 So great was Luther’s hatred of Zwingli that: “Luther was in high glee when news of Zwingli s death reached him.” Grisar, Vol. pg. 383

It may be true that Luther would have actually preferred to share the Eucharist with Catholics rather than the ‘enthusiasts’ like Zwingli, but the fact is that he hated both although maybe not equally in every moment.

As for Luther defending the Sacraments? Certainly you don’t mean the 7 Catholic Sacraments, 5 of which he denied as being Sacraments in the same way that he ‘demoted’ 4 books of the NT to a lesser status. Sorry but I cannot bring myself to see Luther as a defender of the Sacraments, nor of Scripture for that matter.

We know that Luther hated the Pope and also individual Catholics:

“Luther hated the pope as antichrist and Catholics as the agents of Satan.” (Lutheran Professor) Mark U. Edwards, “Luther’s Last Battles”, pg. 36

In all honestly that kind of sentiment does not sound like Luther was all that ‘loving’ or charitable towards Catholics. Yet, amazingly, it seems that Luther hated the ‘enthusiasts’ as much or more than he did Catholics.

For the record, it bothers me when historical events and circumstances are inaccurately portrayed, even when it is done innocently. In my experience, when these errors are made they are ALWAYS in Luther’s favor. I call this the propensity to ‘clean up history’ the “Legend of Luther”.
 
Wow:shrug: Changing doctrine with the times is never Christian.
Catholics don’t have much room to give any lectures about changing doctrine, or adding to the creed, wouldn’t you say?

Even so, when we recite the Creed, we have a little footnote that shows the original wording. I don’t have a problem with it.
 
Catholics don’t have much room to give any lectures about changing doctrine, or adding to the creed, wouldn’t you say?

Even so, when we recite the Creed, we have a little footnote that shows the original wording. I don’t have a problem with it.
I don’t know of any doctrine being changed in Catholicism or adding to the creed, in the way I have heard non-catholics and Orthodox misunderstand them.

I don’t know if you know, but it is an anathema if anyone changes the creed or changes a defined doctrine. I assure you, no Bishop of Rome or the Catholic Church has ever changed the Creed by adding to it, or changed a defined doctrine. You are grossly mislead and have been grossly decieved.

Clarifying and defining a doctrine is never changing a doctrine no matter in what age it was clarified and defended against heretics and heresies.

I was given a post shock when I came across your post, I meant no negativity by it.

I respect your position of your creed. We Catholics do not have the liberty of moving or adding professed doctrines, in fact we can’t. We are not a democracy in the Kingdom of God, we are governed by our heavenly King, and we the body of Christ cannot move without our head Jesus Christ. So it is not easy for Catholics to change doctrine on the whim, without Jesus binding and loosing them from heaven.

Peace be with you, and please forgive me if my shocked post mistakenly offended you:blush:.
 
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