Did you read the documents I provided? It tells you how it works. If you choose to believe only your own interpretation about it, fine, but don’t ask the same questions about it over again. Lutherans believe that Catholics, and yes the pope and the cardinals, and bishops and priests and deacons are all Christian. The Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome is a Christian Church, because it preaches the word and administers valid sacraments.
I very much appreciate your attempt to answer my questions, but it seems that our mutual frustration though is due to the nature of those questions. You seem to be getting frustrated because I don’t accept your answers and I am frustrated because you are answering questions that are very different from the ones I am asking.
I apologize to you if you are becoming frustrated. That is not my aim. The problem as I see it is NOT whether Lutherans consider Catholics to be Christians, but more how you can hold that belief when it is clearly against the teachings of your authoritative confessional documents. I posted text from the Formula of Concord, and in response, you linked me to a Lutheran blogger’s post. It would seem that what I posted is much more authoritative than what your Lutheran blogger wrote.
My ‘problem’ (so to speak) is that I don’t seem to be able to get an answer about the specific meaning of the specific text of the Formula of Concord on this matter. At the risk of being repetitive, and because I sense that you really do want to answer my concerns, the quotes which have still not been explained are as follows:
The Formula of Concord - A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Treatise Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald – 1537
INTRODUCTION TO THE TREATISE ON THE POWER AND PRIMACY OF THE POPE
“39] Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents.
57] Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist.
59] But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity…”
#39 makes it very clear that ‘all the marks of antichrist’ are on ‘Roman pontiffs, with their adherents’. #57 makes it very clear that the Pope – ‘him’ is antichrist. The ‘him’ is personal. There is absolutely NO mention of the ‘office’ in this document. #59 again mentions the Pope AND his ‘adherents’.
So – what I really want to know if this: Who, specifically and exactly are these ‘adherents’ who ‘bear the marks of the antichrist along with the pope?
What’s really odd about this is you seem to want to believe we think you are not Christian. I would have thought your reaction would be, “Whew, thank God. Its really good to here that Lutherans aren’t monsters I thought they were.” But you seem to want to make us defend something we don’t believe. Read the links I provided. Read what the Lutherans on this board tell you we believe. And please stop trying to tell us what we believe. You’re wrong, and its just as annoying as when protestants try to tell Catholics what they believe.
Please let me get this straight. You find it annoying that I supposedly tell you what you think, while in the same breath tell me “what you seem to believe”, and you get it wrong to boot? First of all, you are wrong in that I personally believe that the most Lutherans believe that Catholics are Christians, but then that isn’t the point, which you seem not to understand. At least we agree that that is annoying. Maybe that is a start.
I hear over and over that it is ‘only’ the office of the papacy which Lutherans consider to be the Anti-Christ, AS IF that isn’t extremely offensive, especially in the midst of your chiding of me for my ‘lack’ of charity.
That blogger you linked me to comments that “Luther asserts that the Papacy is the Antichrist. This is a statement that shocks most modern Christian ears, striking many as an outrageous excess of rhetoric.” (I could not agree more, in addition to it be being completely unnecessary – Topper.) “Confessional Lutherans must be sensitive to the degree to which this assertion in our Book of Concord is deeply offensive to other Christians when they learn of this teaching.” To me that is a classic understatement. In fact, all of the ‘explanation’ which attempts to justify such language only makes it more offensive. Personally I would prefer to see Lutherans eliminate this part of the F of C entirely.
Here’s the problem Jon – both you and the blogger refer to the ‘office’ of the papacy as being the antichrist, yet the confessional documents do not refer to the ‘office’. This blogger also wrote:
“The person and office that continues, to this day, to best fit this description (of the antichrist), is the office of the Papacy in Rome, which continues to claim for itself supreme rule and ultimate doctrinal authority in the Christian Church on earth.”
These are NOT reassuring words to Catholics.
