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jjm5588
Guest
We got into this conversation with one of our Parish Deacons over dinner. His explanation was short and simple…“Jesus created the Catholic Church. Man created all the others. Who are you going to believe?”
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Hi jjm, and welcome to CAF. Honestly, I would be rather astonished if a Catholic deacon were to say anything else. I would predict that an Orthodox priest might say the same. As a Lutheran, I would say there is only one Church, and we, and you, and they, and others are members.We got into this conversation with one of our Parish Deacons over dinner. His explanation was short and simple…“Jesus created the Catholic Church. Man created all the others. Who are you going to believe?”
Jon
P
pablope
Guest
And here is the rub or the question…how come Jerome and Cajetan can remain in good standing and Luther cannot?B
Quote:
Why did all Christians view Maccabees as scripture until Martin Luther used his knife to cut it out and through it away?
They didn’t, many Christians questioned its place in the canon from Jerome all the way to Cajetan. And they remained in good standing, Luther was in bounds to question them so to speak, as they weren’t formally canonized until Trent. Luther was before Trent.
And here is where you omit the following: Jerome deferred to the Church for guidance on such matters, Luther took it upon himself and told everyone who would listen to decide for themselves, instead of, and in contrast to Jerome, seeking the guidance of the Church.
S
SyCarl
Guest
In regards to 2 Tim 3:16, I replied on another thread:
Let’s look at that entire paragraph:
2 Tim 3:10 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions, my sufferings, what befell me at Antioch, at Ico′nium, and at Lystra, what persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and[a] profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,* 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Paul says:
*]You have observed my teaching.
*]**Continue **in what you have learned.
*]**Knowing **from **whom **you learned.
It then says:
Scriptures are profitable. **Not **the **sole **and **single **authority, not that it is exclusive, but that they are **profitable **to maintain teaching, learning — and more importantly: from whom you learned!
So, who teaches Scriptures in a wrong way should be **avoided **and this bad teacher destroys any profitability that the Scriptures offer.
And how do you know from **whom **you should learn?
1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Paul clearly understands where to go for the truth. Alas, we should as well. And the Church is one, not many.
Let’s look at another interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” All what Scripture? all that sacred writing, he means, of which I was speaking. This is said of what he was discoursing of; about which he said, “From a child you have known the holy Scriptures.” All such, then, “is given by inspiration of God”; therefore, he means, do not doubt; and it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
F
FathersKnowBest
Guest
Why, to the Old Testament, of course! Since that is ALL the scripture that we had at the point that St. Paul is talking about (the sacred writings with which he was acquainted from childhood).Let’s look at another interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16
John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm
If we have any questions, where does he tell us to go?
Jesus tells us where we should go if we have a dispute that can’t be solved in other ways:
Mt 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Much better advice than to take your interpretation of St. Chrysostom’s homily where he was waxing somewhat hyperbolic.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Are you suggesting Chrysostom was implying Sola Scriptura? Not even close!Let’s look at another interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16
John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm
If we have any questions, where does he tell us to go?
D
dronald
Guest
It really surprises me when people say “Scripture” meant only the OT only because the NT hadn’t been completed. This is certainly false.Why, to the Old Testament, of course! Since that is ALL the scripture that we had at the point that St. Paul is talking about (the sacred writings with which he was acquainted from childhood).
Jesus tells us where we should go if we have a dispute that can’t be solved in other ways:
Mt 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Much better advice than to take your interpretation of St. Chrysostom’s homily where he was waxing somewhat hyperbolic.
F
FathersKnowBest
Guest
It’s pretty easy to cherry-pick St. John Chrysostom, since his manner of speaking was to ask rhetorical questions with hyperbole for effect.Let’s look at another interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16
John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm
If we have any questions, where does he tell us to go?
This is the same guy who said (in Homilies on 2 Thess 2:15):
Hence it is manifest, that they [the Apostles] did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit.
F
FathersKnowBest
Guest
That would surprise me, too (although it is true).It really surprises me when people say “Scripture” meant only the OT only because the NT hadn’t been completed. This is certainly false.
But that isn’t what I said.
I said that the NT hadn’t been completed in the time frame that St. Paul was referring to: St. Timothy’s childhood. I thought I was pretty explicit.
Re-read the scripture passage, please.
S
spina1953
Guest
Have to agree with you on what you have posted since it is true that St. Paul was talking about the O.T and when he was talking about what is learned from him it is what The Apostles were teaching that they themselves learned from Jesus.That would surprise me, too (although it is true).
But that isn’t what I said.
I said that the NT hadn’t been completed in the time frame that St. Paul was referring to: St. Timothy’s childhood. I thought I was pretty explicit.
Re-read the scripture passage, please.
D
dronald
Guest
But hadn’t some of the NT been written by Timothy’s letter, and hadn’t the truth of Christ already been proclaimed as Scripture by then?That would surprise me, too (although it is true).
But that isn’t what I said.
I said that the NT hadn’t been completed in the time frame that St. Paul was referring to: St. Timothy’s childhood. I thought I was pretty explicit.
Re-read the scripture passage, please.
S
SyCarl
Guest
Jesus is talking about if someone sins against you. Both Augustine and Chrysostom indicate the aggrieved person does the binding and loosing.Why, to the Old Testament, of course! Since that is ALL the scripture that we had at the point that St. Paul is talking about (the sacred writings with which he was acquainted from childhood).
Jesus tells us where we should go if we have a dispute that can’t be solved in other ways:
Mt 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Much better advice than to take your interpretation of St. Chrysostom’s homily where he was waxing somewhat hyperbolic.
Augustine (Homilies on the Gospels, Homily 32, Paragraph 7)But “if he will not hear thee,” that is, if he will defend his sin as if it were a just action, “take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established; and if he will not hear them, refer it to the Church; but if he will not hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Reckon him no more amongst the number of thy brethren. But yet neither is his salvation on that account to be neglected. For the very heathen, that is, the Gentiles and Pagans, we do not reckon among the number of brethren; but yet are we ever seeking their salvation. This then have we heard the Lord so advising, and with such great carefulness enjoining, that He even added this immediately, “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.” Thou hast begun to hold thy brother for a publican; “thou bindest him on earth;” but see that thou bind him justly. For unjust bonds justice doth burst asunder. But when thou hast corrected, and been “reconciled to thy brother,” thou hast “loosed him on earth.” And when “thou shalt have loosed him on earth, he shall be loosed in heaven also.” Thus thou doest a great thing, not for thyself, but for him; for a great injury had he done, not to thee, but to himself.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf106.vii.xxxiv.html
Chrysostom is even clearer.
John Chrysostom (Homilies on Matthew, Homily 60)But why did He set him with these? To soothe the person wronged, and to alarm him. Is this only then the punishment? Nay, but hear also what follows. “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven.” And He did not say to the ruler of the church, “Bind such a man,” but, “If thou bind,” committing the whole matter to the person himself, who is aggrieved, and the bonds abide indissoluble. Therefore he will suffer the utmost ills; but not he who hath brought him to account is to blame, but he who hath not been willing to be persuaded.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LVII.html
S
SyCarl
Guest
But it had been completed by the time Chrysostom wrote and he indicates we have the Scriptures instead of Paul and if we would learn anything we can learn it from them. He sends people to the Scripture when he could just as easily have said ask the Church.That would surprise me, too (although it is true).
But that isn’t what I said.
I said that the NT hadn’t been completed in the time frame that St. Paul was referring to: St. Timothy’s childhood. I thought I was pretty explicit.
Re-read the scripture passage, please.
S
SyCarl
Guest
Why is it cherry-picking when a Protestant quotes a Church father? Did Chrysostom accept tradition. Yes. But he also says all the necessary things are plain and clear on Scripture.It’s pretty easy to cherry-pick St. John Chrysostom, since his manner of speaking was to ask rhetorical questions with hyperbole for effect.
This is the same guy who said (in Homilies on 2 Thess 2:15):
Hence it is manifest, that they [the Apostles] did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit.
John Chrysostom, (Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain.
newadvent.org/fathers/23053.htm
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
I love St. John Chrysostom, I love Scriptures more than I love St John Chrysostom. He was known as the “Golden Mouth” for a reason.Let’s look at another interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16
John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm
If we have any questions, where does he tell us to go?
But… (Oh noes…)
He is not the sole authority of the Church.
Further, he is not saying all you would like him to be saying. Scriptures are true, absolutely.
He is not saying they are the only truth. He is not saying they are the only source.
Can we learn from Scriptures? By Jolly, Can I get an Amen!!!??? Amen!!!
But what happens when we interpret on our own? Or any other help?
A new denomination is born.
The sad part is that every denomination thinks they are right and led by the Holy Spirit. Even when there is contradiction…
You are trying to make more of what “Golden Mouth” is saying.
I will never doubt I can find truth in Scriptures, I read them daily and use them daily. In fact, when I don’t read them I feel like I can’t breath.
I feel that same way without my Church too, after all — I know Scriptures are true because they are part of Christ’s body - not alone, not apart - together in the unity of the Holy Spirit, Amen.
Can I get another Amen?
[sign]AMEN![/sign]
S
SyCarl
Guest
I am not claiming that any of the Church fathers is the sole authority of the Church. What I am saying is that Protestant ideas are not alien to the early Church. For example can you show me any definitive teaching against the formal sufficiency of Scripture before Trent?I love St. John Chrysostom, I love Scriptures more than I love St John Chrysostom. He was known as the “Golden Mouth” for a reason.
But… (Oh noes…)
He is not the sole authority of the Church.
Further, he is not saying all you would like him to be saying. Scriptures are true, absolutely.
He is not saying they are the only truth. He is not saying they are the only source.
Can we learn from Scriptures? By Jolly, Can I get an Amen!!!??? Amen!!!
But what happens when we interpret on our own? Or any other help?
A new denomination is born.
The sad part is that every denomination thinks they are right and led by the Holy Spirit. Even when there is contradiction…
You are trying to make more of what “Golden Mouth” is saying.
I will never doubt I can find truth in Scriptures, I read them daily and use them daily. In fact, when I don’t read them I feel like I can’t breath.
I feel that same way without my Church too, after all — I know Scriptures are true because they are part of Christ’s body - not alone, not apart - together in the unity of the Holy Spirit, Amen.
Can I get another Amen?
[sign]AMEN![/sign]
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
I can show you an Apostle!I am not claiming that any of the Church fathers is the sole authority of the Church. What I am saying is that Protestant ideas are not alien to the early Church. For example can you show me any definitive teaching against the formal sufficiency of Scripture before Trent?
[bibledrb]2 Peter 3:16[/bibledrb]
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
How about Christ?I am not claiming that any of the Church fathers is the sole authority of the Church. What I am saying is that Protestant ideas are not alien to the early Church. For example can you show me any definitive teaching against the formal sufficiency of Scripture before Trent?
[bibledrb]John 5:39-40[/bibledrb]
Christ is saying - It is not enough to search and study the Scripures - We have to follow Him!
S
SyCarl
Guest
Peter is saying some things are difficult not all. That is not denying the formal sufficiency of Scripture.I can show you an Apostle!
[bibledrb]2 Peter 3:16[/bibledrb]
S
SyCarl
Guest
Jesus is not saying the Scriptures are not sufficient. He is in fact telling them to search the Scriptures because they give testimony of Him. If you read further He is saying they do not believe the Scriptures and that is their problem.How about Christ?
[bibledrb]John 5:39-40[/bibledrb]
Christ is saying - It is not enough to search and study the Scripures - We have to follow Him!
How do we know how to follow Jesus? Because Scripture contains what we need to know and do. There may be other things we can do, but those found in Scripture are sufficient.You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"
(Joh 5:39-47 ESV)
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