How do protestants explain history

[Topper17]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your response.

The simple proof would be that Germans worshiped with the same priests and bishops before, during, and after the reformation.

Yes but those priests and bishops had apostatized. They had turned their back on their oaths and on the teachings of the Church which had ordained them. By their apostasy, they had cut themselves off from the Church, renounced their ordinations, and forfeited the right to consider themselves as a ‘continuation’ of the western church. It wasn’t like a lot of other situations in Christian history where those proclaiming new doctrines could argue that they were teaching things that were not new and radical. Can you possibly imagine the 16th century Catholic Church deeming the Reformers as a ‘continuation of the western Church’? Not hardly.

You’re extending the Lutheran judgment of the office of the Pope to all Catholics? Please don’t do that.

I am not extending anything. The meaning of the Formula of Concord leaves absolutely no doubt – that is that the popes ‘AND their adherents’ bear the ‘marks of Antichrist’. If you have an ‘alternate’ way to interpret that particular text, please give it a shot and we can all take a look and make a determination.

39] Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents.

59] But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity [in the sight of all the world and to the injury of all descendants].”

I very much appreciate that you recognize that this accusation, made in official Lutheran teaching, is false. However, your disagreement with the Formula of Concord does not change the fact that it is official Lutheran doctrine.

I agree with FoC and the whole Book of Concorde. Didn’t stop my family from having my third child’s sponsors (godparents) be Catholic.

Ben – IF you believe the ‘whole Book of Concord’ then you believe what it says about the Popes and their adherents bearing the mark of the antichrist. You can’t have it both ways.

Your opinion of the document, not ours.

Again, its not my opinion but the very clearly stated text.

I think this world will give Catholic and Lutherans so much trouble in the upcoming years, that we’ll be driven together regardless of our differences.

So, I guess by your response you agree that there is no possibility that the Lutherans will withdraw or renounce even those wild accusations about the papacy and it’s adherents bearing the mark of antichrist? Should we Catholics be expected consider a real and meaningful communion with Lutherans without a retraction of those statements? The problem I think is that Lutheranism recognizes the retraction of ANY of their confessional statements as being an extremely slippery slope. Once even one statement is retracted, then the question would have to be asked as to the ‘nature’ of the ‘authority’ of all the rest.

BTW, what is it, specifically and exactly, which makes the Lutheran Book of Concord authoritative for Lutherans?

God Bless You Ben, Topper

 

[Isaiah45_9]

churchhistory101.com/century4-p6.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity
amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Sabbath_change_Constantine

The original Sabbath that Jesus celebrated (Hebrew calendar) was Saturday. I mean, why on earth do think it was changed to Sunday?

From your own link (Al Baker’s website):

Many pagans accused the Christians of Sun worship because they met on Sunday mornings - the early Christians did this to celebrate “the Lord’s Day” as opposed to the Jewish Sabbath.

Early like since the Apostles.

You need to read your sources better. Drop all presumptions and read what the text says, little by little.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Our historical woes are attributed to sinners within the Church acting outside of Church teaching. And much of it is incredibly over exaggerated by enemies of the Church. And I whole heartedly disagree that our history is “not very nice.” You can thank us for birth of western civilization, the worldwide spread of Christianity, the scientific method, universities, hospitals, classic art and music, beautiful architecture, the lives of the saints,THE BIBLE, etc, etc. And the history of our theological origins and foundational origins go all the way back to Christ and the Apostles and the Early Church itself.

YES, YES, this!!!

Great post, thank you!

Paul

 

[Isaiah45_9]

churchhistory101.com/century4-p6.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity
amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Sabbath_change_Constantine

The original Sabbath that Jesus celebrated (Hebrew calendar) was Saturday. I mean, why on earth do think it was changed to Sunday?

From your wiki article:

On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[22] except for the purpose of freeing slaves.

Constantine declared Sunday as an official day of rest.

He did not instituted the Worship on Sunday. Christ did and the Apostles followed and the Apostles disciples followed as well. You can see this from the sources we have given you.

You are misinterpreting what the text actually says.

It makes a significant difference to actually read.

Your 3rd link, conveniently, leaves out the Scriptures and the Letters from the Church Fathers. Wrongly given the impression that it started in the 4th century, when in fact it started with Christ’s resurrection.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Our historical woes are attributed to sinners within the Church acting outside of Church teaching. And much of it is incredibly over exaggerated by enemies of the Church. And I whole heartedly disagree that our history is “not very nice.” You can thank us for birth of western civilization, the worldwide spread of Christianity, the scientific method, universities, hospitals, classic art and music, beautiful architecture, the lives of the saints,THE BIBLE, etc, etc. And the history of our theological origins and foundational origins go all the way back to Christ and the Apostles and the Early Church itself.

Protestants/Evangelical historical woes come from the fact that their existence nor their theology can be traced back any earlier than the Reformation era. Any honest study of the Early Church shows that it was incredibly Catholic. Protestant theology on the other hand was an invention stemming from the Reformation that ended going in thousands of different directions. Theological anarchy.

YES, YES, this!!!

Great post, thank you!

Paul

You can add: Human Rights to the list. See Bartolome de las Casas!

 

[dmwessel]

From your wiki article:

Constantine declared Sunday as an official day of rest.

you should be a politician - obviously it was a *political *move, after all if they can’t work on Sunday, why not make it the official new Sabbath! It was a way to bring change without actually forcing it.

He did not instituted the Worship on Sunday. Christ did and the Apostles followed and the Apostles disciples followed as well. You can see this from the sources we have given you…

Jesus would have celebrated the Sabbath as all Hebrews did, on Saturday, as would the Apostles.

And Constantine’s sun worship is well documented in history and the fact that he did not embrace Catholicism until almost on his death bed.

This is a weak rebuttal indeed.

 

[dmwessel]

That’s an interesting, and, alas, commonly held belief among those who don’t subscribe to actual facts to prove their point.

Please do explain then how the Saturday Sabbath (which Jesus celebrated) came to be changed to Sunday - and under who’s orders was the whole affair conducted?

I find it disturbing when otherwise intelligent people continue to give credence to misinformation when the truth is right there staring them in the face.

 

[dmwessel]

Saturday, the day named after the pagan Roman god Saturn.

The Hebrew Sabbath was Saturday, but of course it wasn’t called Saturday by the Hebrews until some time later, now was it??

 

[Isaiah45_9]

you should be a politician - obviously it was a *political *move, after all if they can’t work on Sunday, why not make it the official new Sabbath! It was a way to bring change without actually forcing it.

Jesus would have celebrated the Sabbath as all Hebrews did, on Saturday, as would the Apostles.

And Constantine’s sun worship is well documented in history and the fact that he did not embrace Catholicism until almost on his death bed.

This is a weak rebuttal indeed.

You are in denial and I have refuted your sources.

You have not refuted mine. Calling me names and my refutations weak does nothing but show a childish attitude.

 

[Buddyroe]

Please do explain then how the Saturday Sabbath (which Jesus celebrated) came to be changed to Sunday - and under who’s orders was the whole affair conducted?

I find it disturbing when otherwise intelligent people continue to give credence to misinformation when the truth is right there staring them in the face.

The sabbath day issue predates Constantine, it goes back to the time the Apostles were still recording the New Testament. These words from St. Paul…

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Don’t know what this has to do with protestants explaining history though, Presbyterians weren’t yet born, can’t pin that rap on us

Seriously though Christians have had liberty to worship Our Lord even on Sunday almost from the beginning, the ‘sun’ god has nothing to do with it. Also it is significant that Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday which is a special reason to worship on that day.

 

[dmwessel]

Actually, the Catholic-Orthodox distinction we have today didn’t exist in the whole first millennium. Having said that, I find it absurd to describe the early church as un-Catholic.

Where did it all have it’s beginnings?

And I don’t believe that history shows the Apostles running around in Catholic habits carrying crosses, etc. and holding High Mass. In fact Paul strictly forbade institutionalized partisan-style worship with a tiered government form of leadership, why else do you think Jesus was so hard on the teachers of the law.

 

[dmwessel]

The sabbath day issue predates Constantine, it goes back to the time the Apostles were still recording the New Testament. These words from St. Paul…

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The manner in which you are bringing this up is not in tune with the conversation. The gist of the topic is that the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and changed by Constantine rather strategically, to Sunday. You must not be Catholic?? Because try telling the Vatican that you’d like to institute a new Sabbath day (on any day that hits your fancy).

Don’t know what this has to do with protestants explaining history though, Presbyterians weren’t yet born, can’t pin that rap on us

Guess you just don’t know your Protestant history well enough.

Seriously though Christians have had liberty to worship Our Lord even on Sunday almost from the beginning, the ‘sun’ god has nothing to do with it. Also it is significant that Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday which is a special reason to worship on that day.

Jesus rising from the grave has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[dmwessel]

Demonstrate your sources and their validity.

We have given you our valid ones. Which only leads to one conclusion. Yours are wrong.

I gave valid sources, you just choose to ignore them in favor of your traditional ideologies.

 

[dmwessel]

You are in denial and I have refuted your sources.

You have not refuted mine. Calling me names and my refutations weak does nothing but show a childish attitude.

You had no sources. Calling other people childish is how immature people act when they lose an argument.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Jesus rising from the grave has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

My goodness…

It has everything to do with the resurrection:

Not once did the Apostles gathered to worship on a Saturday.

All appearances of Jesus after the resurrection happen on Sunday:

[bibledrb]Mark 16:9[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]John 20:19[/bibledrb]

Pentecost was on a Sunday

You are ignoring the text I showed you from Acts and 1 Corinthians and Justin Martyr’s 1st Apology.

You have showed nothing but gossip and false facts.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You had no sources. Calling other people childish is how immature people act when they lose an argument.

You only wish.

 

[dmwessel]

My goodness…

It has everything to do with the resurrection:

Not once did the Apostles gathered to worship on a Saturday.

All appearances of Jesus after the resurrection happen on Sunday:

[bibledrb]Mark 16:9[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]John 20:19[/bibledrb]

Pentecost was on a Sunday

You are ignoring the text I showed you from Acts and 1 Corinthians and Justin Martyr’s 1st Apology.

You have showed nothing but gossip and false facts.

This is completely out of context of the conversation we’ve been having.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I gave valid sources, you just choose to ignore them in favor of your traditional ideologies.

Prove that the Apostles and the early Christians worshiped and met to break the bread on Saturday.

Prove it.

 

[Buddyroe]

The manner in which you are bringing this up is not in tune with the conversation. The gist of the topic is that the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and changed by Constantine rather strategically, to Sunday. You must not be Catholic?? Because try telling the Vatican that you’d like to institute a new Sabbath day (on any day that hits your fancy).

Guess you just don’t know your Protestant history well enough.

Jesus rising from the grave has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The Sabbath is of course Saturday as established in scripture it begins sundown Friday and continues for 24 hours. However we are instructed to not allow ourselves to be judged on a choice of Sabbath days, this is an authorization by St Paul for us to have communion on Sunday, Lord’s Day.

Whether Constantine weighed in on Sunday worship is after the fact, Sunday worship was in practice 300 years prior (St Paul dealt with the issue). The Lords Day is broadly understood in Christendom as being Sunday based on the resurrection of Our Lord.

Did I miss something?

 

[dmwessel]

Prove that the Apostles and the early Christians worshiped and met to break the bread on Saturday.

Prove it.

You’re kidding right?? The Jewish Sabbath is not our Sunday. You must know that Jesus and the Apostles were Jews?

Sunday Sabbath only came about after Constantine.

The point of this whole conversation is that the Hebrew Sabbath was Saturday prior to the time of Constantine and afterwards it was Sunday, and as Constantine was by all historical records known to be a pagan (worshipper of the sun god), it’s no surprise he chose to name his new rest day, Sunday.

I’m sorry if it doesn’t sit well. I was rather upset myself when I learned of it for the first time as I had long thought that Constantine was a champion of the faith.