How do protestants explain history

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Adamski said:
Wouldn’t it be more logical that the Holy Spirit moved the apostles and those apostles appointed other who appointed others (which it says in the bible) and we have pope Francis today
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Nothing against the Pope.

But what about you and your own personal relationship to God?
 
dronald said:
Tertullian was the first; and many Saints after him who had Bishops as fathers weren’t Baptized until their 30’s. Peter Waldo carried on the claim, and his followers in the midst of the persecution that I’ve already posted about.

On top of this; even Catholics don’t believe that water Baptism is necessary for Salvation. Both our Church’s accept that it’s not the water that saves you.
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Hi dronald: As Isaiah 45-9 said in his post it is the “exception not the rule/norm.”
 
Adamski said:
Wouldn’t it be more logical that the Holy Spirit moved the apostles and those apostles appointed other who appointed others (which it says in the bible) and we have pope Francis today
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That is right except that at the beginning they were ONE, then it became “catholic” , then “Catholic and Orthodox” and then Protestant, all from the same beginning. Pope Francis is from one branch that developed from original, of which the Orthodox seem to be closest to (the original).
 
benhur said:
That is right except that at the beginning they were ONE, then it became “catholic” , then “Catholic and Orthodox” and then Protestant, all from the same beginning. Pope Francis is from one branch that developed from original, of which the Orthodox seem to be closest to (the original).
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So you are Orthodox?🙂
 
dronald said:
So then it’s not fair to say anyone after was “the first.”

Even one exception proves that the water is not what saves us.
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Of course. No one thinks the water, in itself, saves us. That’s a straw man.

Edwin
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Exceptions not the rule/norm.
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This is one of the things that causes problems for me.

God is perfect. His plans are perfect. Perfect plans don’t need exceptions.

The Catholic Church teaches there are exceptions.

To me this means either God is not perfect or the Catholic Church is wrong. I will go with God being perfect.
 
SyCarl said:
This is one of the things that causes problems for me.

God is perfect. His plans are perfect. Perfect plans don’t need exceptions.

The Catholic Church teaches there are exceptions.

To me this means either God is not perfect or the Catholic Church is wrong. I will go with God being perfect.
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In the perfect world all men would be saved, Catholic, and sainted. The fact that it is not is evidence of exceptions.
 
SyCarl said:
This is one of the things that causes problems for me.

God is perfect. His plans are perfect. Perfect plans don’t need exceptions.

The Catholic Church teaches there are exceptions.

To me this means either God is not perfect or the Catholic Church is wrong. I will go with God being perfect.
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In your own logic, it would then make sense that only God is absolute.

Everything else has exceptions.

In addition, your logic also demands that the Church is also one and not have exceptions. That puts you in a dangerous category, does it not?

But not only is God perfect but He is merciful. In His mercy, our short comings and inefficiencies are overcome by His Will for His purpose as well. IOW - any and all exceptions are overcame by His Mercy.

The question that remains is:

How much accountability do we have over our actions?

Also, for a much better explanation and for actual Catholic teaching, you can check Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott) - Book Four, Part 3, Section 2.1 on Baptism.
 
There is no perfection on earth. Only in heaven will we experience heaven.

So the Church stumbles along, guided by the light of Christ.
 
SyCarl said:
God is perfect. His plans are perfect. Perfect plans don’t need exceptions.

The Catholic Church teaches there are exceptions.

To me this means either God is not perfect or the Catholic Church is wrong. I will go with God being perfect.
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This is a logical fallacy.

Why do you believe that perfect plans cannot contain exceptions? Because you identify an exception as a correction of a mistake or an improvement of something that is flawed.

But wouldn’t it be completely reasonable to say that a perfect plan COULD include an exception?

If not, could you explain how God becoming a man is not the greatest exception in the history of humanity and part of a very perfect plan?

Thanks.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
In your own logic, it would then make sense that only God is absolute.

Everything else has exceptions.

In addition, your logic also demands that the Church is also one and not have exceptions. That puts you in a dangerous category, does it not?
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The Church is one but not in the way Catholics believe. Augustine recognized that “church” when used in Scripture has various meanings. The true Church is the body of believers who will be with Jesus in eternity.
The second rule is about the twofold division of the body of the Lord; but this indeed is not a suitable name, for that is really no part of the body of Christ which will not be with Him in eternity. We ought, therefore, to say that the rule is about the true and the mixed body of the Lord, or the true and the counterfeit, or some such name; because, not to speak of eternity, hypocrites cannot even now be said to be in Him, although they seem to be in His Church. And hence this rule might be designated thus: Concerning the mixed Church. Now this rule requires the reader to be on his guard when Scripture, although it has now come to address or speak of a different set of persons, seems to be addressing or speaking of the same persons as before, just as if both sets constituted one body in consequence of their being for the time united in a common participation of the sacraments
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Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 3:32)
newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm

Augustine’s view appears to be that the true body was within the institution called the Catholic Church but that doesn’t follow from his statement. Once the visible organization divides the true Church resides in the resulting visible institutions. It could also be that the true body of Christ contains individuals who are not part of any visible institution.

Divisions in the visible institution arise because humans are not perfect. There can be errors in each of the visible churches which leads to division but the true Church remains one.

God’s plan is perfect but men are not. God’s plan can take this into account without having to make exceptions. The idea that all rules have exceptions is a human concept. It would not apply to God. God is perfect. A rule that requires exceptions is not perfect. Therefore such a rule cannot be of God but is one of human conception. God knows man makes errors and His plan takes into account those errors and does not require exceptions.
 
Randy_Carson said:
This is a logical fallacy.

Why do you believe that perfect plans cannot contain exceptions? Because you identify an exception as a correction of a mistake or an improvement of something that is flawed.
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An exception is needed when things are not covered or contemplated by the original plan. So yes a perfect plan cannot have exceptions.
Randy_Carson said:
But wouldn’t it be completely reasonable to say that a perfect plan COULD include an exception?
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If an exception is part of the plan or rule then it is no longer an exception. If this is true, then what was originally viewed as the rule was not a correct statement of the rule.
Randy_Carson said:
If not, could you explain how God becoming a man is not the greatest exception in the history of humanity and part of a very perfect plan?

Thanks.
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God becoming a man is not an exception. It is the whole basis for God’s plan for salvation.
 
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