How do protestants explain history

[dronald]

Sigh… Is this about just being right?

Can you please read the following:

Memory and Reconciliation: The Church and the Faults from the Past.

Confession of Sins and Asking for Forgiveness.

Tertio Millennio Adveniente.

And please find it in your heart to stop pointing at the plank in our eye? Or do I have to hunt down how many times you have posted about this to prove I’m right? (Sorry had to throw a little jab)

Read it. So you and the Catholic Church officially admit they were wrong about what they said in the fourth lateran council and likely many other councils?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The Church is one but not in the way Catholics believe. Augustine recognized that “church” when used in Scripture has various meanings. The true Church is the body of believers who will be with Jesus in eternity.

The Church does have various meanings in regards to the context on which it is used.

But in your understanding, if the true Church is the one in eternity. Then there is no true Church on earth.

Christ said take it to **the **Church - He [did not] say take it to *one *of the Churches.

Paul said **the **Church is **the **Pillar and Bulwark of **the **Truth - not one of the pillars (or {a} pillar like the ESV agenda wants to say). And for Timothy to go to this one Church if Paul is delayed. I doubt Paul is talking about being delayed for eternity.

So this **one **Church is on earth as well.

(On Christian Doctrine, 3:32)
newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm

Augustine’s view appears to be that the true body was within the institution called the Catholic Church but that doesn’t follow from his statement. Once the visible organization divides the true Church resides in the resulting visible institutions. It could also be that the true body of Christ contains individuals who are not part of any visible institution.

Divisions in the visible institution arise because humans are not perfect. There can be errors in each of the visible churches which leads to division but the true Church remains one.

God’s plan is perfect but men are not. God’s plan can take this into account without having to make exceptions. The idea that all rules have exceptions is a human concept. It would not apply to God. God is perfect. A rule that requires exceptions is not perfect. Therefore such a rule cannot be of God but is one of human conception. God knows man makes errors and His plan takes into account those errors and does not require exceptions.

I take it, you have not read the link I provided?

Augustine was a great theologian. But he was a man - was he not? Not only was he a man, but he also was a Bishop of the Catholic Church - who also said:

On the profit of believing:

33. Wherefore, although I am not able to teach, yet I cease not to advise, that, (whereas many wish to appear wise, and it is no easy matter to discern whether they be fools,) with all earnestness, and with all prayers, and lastly with groans, or even, if so it may be, with tears, you entreat of God to set you free from the evil of error; if your heart be set on a happy life. And this will take place the more easily, if you obey with a willing mind His commands, which He has willed should be confirmed by so great authority of the Catholic Church

He also said in Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus:

For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichæus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you—If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichæus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;— Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichæus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason?

God’s plan is interpreted by these erratic humans. Are there errors in how we interpret them? If there are - how do we even know His correct and infallible plan?

As a Catholic, this doesn’t pose a problem for me. I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church guided by the Holy Spirit and by the God Son - Jesus Christ the only Son of God, who sits at the right hand of God the Father. And whose earthly appointed leader is the successor of Peter, the rock - on whom the Church is built by Christ. Who is an imperfect human, but who is infallible by the Grace of God when speaking in matters of Faith and Morals. Because that is His plan. And His plan is perfect, indeed.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Read it. So you and the Catholic Church officially admit they were wrong about what they said in the fourth lateran council and likely many other councils?

Please explain what you mean and include the 4th Lateran and the many (This is way too general) other councils in context please.

And please get a computer . You can get a chromebook for under $150. I know, I have 4 kids - 3 of them teenagers

 

[dronald]

Please explain what you mean and include the 4th Lateran and the many (This is way too general) other councils in context please.

And please get a computer . You can get a chromebook for under $150. I know, I have 4 kids - 3 of them teenagers

The words of the third canon as I’ve posted before; calling for the extermination of heretics and saying many other things.

 

[spina1953]

I would like to chime in and say that while man is of a fallen nature he has free will and God being perfect will not interfere with mans free will so if man makes mistakes in and out of the Church He founded through Jesus His Son and the Apostles He choose to preach that Good News that the Catholic Church teaches, God will in His own way and time bring together those willing to submit to the will of God, instead of self, and the power some think they must have and those who think that when things go wrong the only way to fix it is to start a new church. This is exactly what happened when Luther and others decided that the only way abuses could be fixed is by starting a new church where one can believe whatever is decided to be the truth. I think that there is a big difference between what the Church teaches and what those who have authority practice. This by no means is that all who have authority abuse it but only those who seek power to further their own agenda. We have had Popes who lived a life of sin and Bishops as well as priests that live or had lived a life of sin but the teachings that have been passed on by the Apostles have not changed.

it is only by those who saw the abuses and did their best to correct them by staying within the Church and not outside of it.

 

[dronald]

it is only by those who saw the abuses and did their best to correct them by staying within the Church and not outside of it.

Try saying that when you disagree (again fourth lateran; canon 3) and are condemned to a burning stake.

Did you read how serious they were about conforming to the official Catholic/Orthodox teaching on exterminating people like me or Peter Waldo?

 

[spina1953]

Try saying that when you disagree (again fourth lateran; canon 3) and are condemned to a burning stake.

Did you read how serious they were about conforming to the official Catholic/Orthodox teaching on exterminating people like me or Peter Waldo?

My understanding of history is that it was not the Church burned people at the stake but the secular authorities who did. Now I also know that Protestants also burned people at the stake for example the Salem witch hunt where some were burned a the stake or tossed into the water to see if they could swim and if they did they were a witch and if they did not swim and drowned then they were not a witch. I will read the fourth Lateran canon 3 and reply to it later. thanks.

 

[dronald]

My understanding of history is that it was no the Church burned people at the stake but the secular authorities who did. Now I also know that Protestants also burned people at the stake for example the Salem witch hunt where some were burned a the stake or tossed into the water to see if they could swim and if they did they were a witch and if they did not swim and drowned then they were not a witch. I will read the fourth Lateran canon 3 and reply to it later. thanks.

Yeah, I look at the Catholic Church similarly to that of Pontius Pilate when it comes to “turning them over to secular authorities.” Except the CC was worse because they encouraged others everywhere to exterminate heretics as you’ll find when you read it.

 

[GKC]

My understanding of history is that it was no the Church burned people at the stake but the secular authorities who did. Now I also know that Protestants also burned people at the stake for example the Salem witch hunt where some were burned a the stake or tossed into the water to see if they could swim and if they did they were a witch and if they did not swim and drowned then they were not a witch. I will read the fourth Lateran canon 3 and reply to it later. thanks.

Salem witches were hung, not burned. One individual was crushed by heavy weights, in an attempt to force testimony/confession.

The relationship, in Europe, between the secular and sacred authorities, with respect to
dealing with heretics (or witches) was complicated, as history usually is. I don’t have time to address it, but Peters/INQUISITION is a good intro to that portion of it.

GKC

 

[spina1953]

Salem witches were hung, not burned. One individual was crushed by heavy weights, in an attempt to force testimony/confession.

The relationship, in Europe, between the secular and sacred authorities, with respect to
dealing with heretics (or witches) was complicated, as history usually is. I don’t have time to address it, but Peters/INQUISITION is a good intro to that portion of it.

GKC

Many of the history books I have read say that witches were burned as well as hung and crushed by heavy weights etc. I agree that it is very much complicated some due to the many wars over religion etc. and emerging nationalism in Europe which continued in the New world. One think I will point out is that whether Catholic or Protestant or non-Christian, there are those who use cruel methods in order to either make one convert to their beliefs or to punish them as God’s representative on earth, somehow thinking it is God’s will to do so. This going on today as we can readily see in the Middle East and elsewhere.

 

[spina1953]

Yeah, I look at the Catholic Church similarly to that of Pontius Pilate when it comes to “turning them over to secular authorities.” Except the CC was worse because they encouraged others everywhere to exterminate heretics as you’ll find when you read it.

I rather doubt that the CC was any more worse then any of the Protestants who did likewise to those opposed to whatever beliefs they had. It is not what the Church teaches but those who decide for themselves what they think the Church is to do. As I said it is not the Church but those who run it being fallible men and of a fallen nature who do as they will against what the Church really teaches.

 

[dronald]

I rather doubt that the CC was any more worse then any of the Protestants who did likewise to those opposed to whatever beliefs they had. It is not what the Church teaches but those who decide for themselves what they think the Church is to do. As I said it is not the Church but those who run it being fallible men and of a fallen nature who do as they will against what the Church really teaches.

The Church actually taught it as truth though. I really don’t see a good argument besides the Church has officially declared that said councils were false and they ask forgiveness. That seems right to me.

I don’t condone anything the Protestant Church’s have taught that has led to the deaths of “heretics” or those outside the Protestant Religion. The issue I have is that the fourth lateran council; canon 3 (as well as certain papal bulls against Luther) were evil. There’s no excuse; the Church and the Holy Spirit were used as an excuse to murder and Catholics justify it instead of admitting the Church was teaching falsehood.

 

[GKC]

Many of the history books I have read say that witches were burned as well as hung and crushed by heavy weights etc. I agree that it is very much complicated some due to the many wars over religion etc. and emerging nationalism in Europe which continued in the New world. One think I will point out is that whether Catholic or Protestant or non-Christian, there are those who use cruel methods in order to either make one convert to their beliefs or to punish them as God’s representative on earth, somehow thinking it is God’s will to do so. This going on today as we can readily see in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Certainly. But you mentioned Salem. No one was burned at Salem, they were hung. And one suffered peine fort et dure.

Otherwise, I agree.

GKC

 

[spina1953]

The Church actually taught it as truth though. I really don’t see a good argument besides the Church has officially declared that said councils were false and they ask forgiveness. That seems right to me.

I don’t condone anything the Protestant Church’s have taught that has led to the deaths of “heretics” or those outside the Protestant Religion. The issue I have is that the fourth lateran council; canon 3 (as well as certain papal bulls against Luther) were evil. There’s no excuse; the Church and the Holy Spirit were used as an excuse to murder and Catholics justify it instead of admitting the Church was teaching falsehood.

I have a problem believing that the CC taught what you are suggesting. However, one must remember that it is men who think they arte guided by the Holy Spirit
when in fact they are not. I still do not believe that the CC taught that burning people at the stake or hanging them or whatever death preformed as punishment is Church teaching.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The words of the third canon as I’ve posted before; calling for the extermination of heretics and saying many other things.

*II. CONFESSION OF SINS COMMITTED IN THE SERVICE OF TRUTH

A representative of the Roman Curia:

Let us pray that each one of us,
looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart,
will recognize that even men of the Church,
in the name of faith and morals,
have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel
in the solemn duty of defending the truth.

Silent prayer.

The Holy Father:

Lord, God of all men and women,
in certain periods of history
Christians have at times given in to intolerance
and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love,
sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse.
Have mercy on your sinful children
and accept our resolve
to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity,
in the firm knowledge that truth
can prevail only in virtue of truth itself.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

R. Amen.

R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.*

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The words of the third canon as I’ve posted before; calling for the extermination of heretics and saying many other things.

*V. CONFESSION OF SINS COMMITTED IN ACTIONS AGAINST LOVE, PEACE, THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLES, AND RESPECT FOR CULTURES AND RELIGIONS

A representative of the Roman Curia:

Let us pray that contemplating Jesus,
our Lord and our Peace,
Christians will be able to repent of the words and attitudes
caused by pride, by hatred,
by the desire to dominate others,
by enmity towards members of other religions
and towards the weakest groups in society,
such as immigrants and itinerantes

Silent prayer.

The Holy Father:

Lord of the world, Father of all,
through your Son
you asked us to love our enemies,
to do good to those who hate us
and to pray for those who persecute us.
Yet Christians have often denied the Gospel;
yielding to a mentalíty of power,
they have violated the rights of ethnic groups and peoples,
and shown contempt for their cultures and religious traditions:
be patient and merciful towards us, and grant us your forgiveness!
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

R. Amen.

R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison.*

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The words of the third canon as I’ve posted before; calling for the extermination of heretics and saying many other things.

This is still very general and this is a different thread.

All in context.

It makes it much easier to have the specific source of your allegations. And the way things are said makes all the difference as well.

You can’t really expect me to agree on a general statement I am not seeing or that is absent of the source.

 

[spina1953]

Try saying that when you disagree (again fourth lateran; canon 3) and are condemned to a burning stake.

Did you read how serious they were about conforming to the official Catholic/Orthodox teaching on exterminating people like me or Peter Waldo?

Hi: I just got off several internet sites concerning the 4th Lateran council canon 3, I did not realize that there were so many site about this canon3. That being said I have not seen anything that says that the CC taught that Heretic’s were to be burned, hung, drowned, killed etc… So far what I have been able to gather is that the CC itself never actually inflected punishments on heretic’s as they were turned over to the civil or secular authorities. Canon 3 so far as it can be seen is a disciplinary action not dogma nor doctrine that says that heretic’s were to be killed. Actually they were to be driven off, by secular authorities, and exterminated by the spiritual sword.

So I am thinking that you somehow misread this canon 3 or have some different interpretation contrary to what it actually said. Apparently in the middle ages they had a far different meaning of the word exterminated then we as modern man does in our day and age.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hi: I just got off several internet sites concerning the 4th Lateran council canon 3, I did not realize that there were so many site about this canon3. That being said I have not seen anything that says that the CC taught that Heretic’s were to be burned, hung, drowned, killed etc… So far what I have been able to gather is that the CC itself never actually inflected punishments on heretic’s as they were turned over to the civil or secular authorities. Canon 3 so far as it can be seen is a disciplinary action not dogma nor doctrine that says that heretic’s were to be killed. Actually they were to be driven off, by secular authorities, and exterminated by the spiritual sword.

So I am thinking that you somehow misread this canon 3 or have some different interpretation contrary to what it actually said. Apparently in the middle ages they had a far different meaning of the word exterminated then we as modern man does in our day and age.

Indeed. That is why I’m asking for the specific sources.

 

[spina1953]

Indeed. That is why I’m asking for the specific sources.

Hi Isaiah 45-9" I understand what you are asking and I concur with you that specific sources are needed if one is to believe that somehow the Church actually taught that heretic’s were to be killed.