How do protestants explain the 1500 year gap.

[Denise1957]

Then they better do away with it…Sola Scriptura only agitates/ delays reunion of all Christians. LOL…Just having some fun; it’s late…

Papal infallibility can be replaced with everyone deciding for themselves what truth is. I can see how Lutherans would like a plan like this. In such a scenario, I would think that there would be fracturing of Catholics into thousands of different denominations who would be an authority unto themselves, as are Protestants. Sounds more like disunity to me. Lutherans themselves aren’t unified, from what I can tell. And they’re only one denomination among many.

 

[JonNC]

Papal infallibility can be replaced with everyone deciding for themselves what truth is. I can see how Lutherans would like a plan like this.** In such a scenario, I would think that there would be fracturing of Catholics into thousands of different denominations who would be an authority unto themselves,** as are Protestants. Sounds more like disunity to me. Lutherans themselves aren’t unified, from what I can tell. And they’re only one denomination among many.

I think that’s exactly what happened in the 1500’s.

Seriously, Denise,

Papal infallibility can be replaced with everyone deciding for themselves what truth is. I can see how Lutherans would like a plan like this.

You set up a false choice here. For example, Orthodoxy does not hold to papal infallibility, either. Are you willing to say that they allow everyone to decide for themselves?
Of course not, and from a Lutheran perspective, neither are we. To be Lutheran, one is bound to the confessions, just as you are to the Magisterium. So, no, this would not please us at all.

You make the statement that Lutherans aren’t unified. Actually, we are more unified than our family squabbles would allow outsiders to believe. But that said, the LCMS continues to maintain the scriptural and historical practice of an all-male priesthood, while, for example, the ELCA practices the ordination of women. Which would it be better: for the sake of “unity”, we share altar and pulpit fellowship with the ELCA, or maintain this division based on our adherence to scripture and the tradition of the historic Church?

Few things displease me more than our divisions within Lutheranism. I was raised LCA/ELCA by an LCA/ELCA pastor. Most of my family remains in the ELCA There are huge numbers of confessional Lutherans in the ELCA, with whom I believe, teach and confess the catholic faith that we share.
I know for a fact that were I to present myself to the pastor of my brother’s parish to receive the sacrament, he would receive me. I know for a fact that were my brother to present himself at my parish, the same would occur.

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

I think that’s exactly what happened in the 1500’s.

Seriously, Denise,

You set up a false choice here. For example, Orthodoxy does not hold to papal infallibility, either. Are you willing to say that they allow everyone to decide for themselves?
Of course not, and from a Lutheran perspective, neither are we. To be Lutheran, one is bound to the confessions, just as you are to the Magisterium. So, no, this would not please us at all.

You make the statement that Lutherans aren’t unified. Actually, we are more unified than our family squabbles would allow outsiders to believe. But that said, the LCMS continues to maintain the scriptural and historical practice of an all-male priesthood, while, for example, the ELCA practices the ordination of women. Which would it be better: for the sake of “unity”, we share altar and pulpit fellowship with the ELCA, or maintain this division based on our adherence to scripture and the tradition of the historic Church?

Few things displease me more than our divisions within Lutheranism. I was raised LCA/ELCA by an LCA/ELCA pastor. Most of my family remains in the ELCA There are huge numbers of confessional Lutherans in the ELCA, with whom I believe, teach and confess the catholic faith that we share.
I know for a fact that were I to present myself to the pastor of my brother’s parish to receive the sacrament, he would receive me. I know for a fact that were my brother to present himself at my parish, the same would occur.

Jon

I don’t think that you’ve disproven anything that I said. Let’s take the ordination of women, for example, which will never happen in the Catholic church. Why? Because the Catholic church does not have the authority to ordain women. Yet the ELCA ordains women. From where did they get the authority to do so?

Hopefully this isn’t going too far off-topic.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t think that you’ve disproven anything that I said. Let’s take the ordination of women, for example, which will never happen in the Catholic church. Why? Because the Catholic church does not have the authority to ordain women. Yet the ELCA ordains women. From where did they get the authority to do so?

Hopefully this isn’t going too far off-topic.

Oh, I wasn’t trying to disprove anything, only saying that the choice you provided - either papal infallibility, or everyone decides for him/herself - is a false choice, that there are in fact more choices available, and that Lutherans, frankly, aren’t in favor of either that you provide.

You are asking me to state why the ELCA ordains women, or where they get their authority from. Since I am not an ELCA Lutheran, I won’t speak for them, but regardless of where they claim authority from, I see the practice as being heterodox.
OTOH, the question of where the Catholic Church gets the authority to claim for the Bishop of Rome infallibility (ex cathedra) is also one that deserves answering, since from our POV, neither scripture nor any truly ecumenical council determined it (my understanding is that Orthodoxy holds a similar view).

On the topic, even this dispute doesn’t mean that there has been this mythical gap, since Christ’s Spirit continues to work through the Catholic Church, Orthodoxy, and others.

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

Oh, I wasn’t trying to disprove anything, only saying that the choice you provided - either papal infallibility, or everyone decides for him/herself - is a false choice, that there are in fact more choices available, and that Lutherans, frankly, aren’t in favor of either that you provide.

You are asking me to state why the ELCA ordains women, or where they get their authority from. Since I am not an ELCA Lutheran, I won’t speak for them, but regardless of where they claim authority from, I see the practice as being heterodox.
OTOH, the question of where the Catholic Church gets the authority to claim for the Bishop of Rome infallibility (ex cathedra) is also one that deserves answering, since from our POV, neither scripture nor any truly ecumenical council determined it (my understanding is that Orthodoxy holds a similar view).

On the topic, even this dispute doesn’t mean that there has been this mythical gap, since Christ’s Spirit continues to work through the Catholic Church, Orthodoxy, and others.

Jon

Are the ELCA still considered to be valid and legitimate Lutherans by the LCA? I don’t really know much about them.

 

[JonNC]

Are the ELCA still considered to be valid and legitimate Lutherans by the LCA? I don’t really know much about them.

American Lutheran alphabet soup.

The Lutheran Church in America (LCA) is a predecessor body to the ELCA. The ELCA was a unification (ironically enough) of a number of Lutheran synods in the United States.

When you use “valid and legitimate”, it isn’t typically terminology we use. As a member of the LCMS, I would say, by and large, members of the ELCA are Lutheran. I believe further, though, that some of their practices are heterodox, one which I’ve already mentioned.
Over the spectrum of confessional teaching, however, one would not find a significant difference. Justification, sanctification, the sacraments, etc. one would find little or no difference. Church polity has always been adiaphoron (a thing indifferent) for us, so that wouldn’t matter. The clergy, fellowship, and some social issues or the dividers.

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

American Lutheran alphabet soup.

The Lutheran Church in America (LCA) is a predecessor body to the ELCA. The ELCA was a unification (ironically enough) of a number of Lutheran synods in the United States.

When you use “valid and legitimate”, it isn’t typically terminology we use. As a member of the LCMS, I would say, by and large, members of the ELCA are Lutheran. I believe further, though, that some of their practices are heterodox, one which I’ve already mentioned.
Over the spectrum of confessional teaching, however, one would not find a significant difference. Justification, sanctification, the sacraments, etc. one would find little or no difference. Church polity has always been adiaphoron (a thing indifferent) for us, so that wouldn’t matter. The clergy, fellowship, and some social issues or the dividers.

Jon

I couldn’t think of better terms to use to ask about the ELCA. What I’m trying to get is this: so even though the ELCA ordain women to the Lutheran priesthood, they aren’t like, excommunicated or anything like that, right? So even though you consider that the practice is heterodox, other Lutherans can legitimately disagree. Is that correct?

 

[JonNC]

I couldn’t think of better terms to use to ask about the ELCA. What I’m trying to get is this: so even though the ELCA ordain women to the Lutheran priesthood, they aren’t like, excommunicated or anything like that, right? So even though you consider that the practice is heterodox, other Lutherans can legitimately disagree. Is that correct?

I don’t think their disagreement over ordination is legitimate at all. As I said, it is heterodox. That isn’t a minor disagreement. It is significant. I would not attend a worship, much less receive absolution or the Eucharist from a women priest. I would transfer my membership to an ELCA parish if I moved, but I wouldn’t judge their faith either

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

I don’t think their disagreement over ordination is legitimate at all. As I said, it is heterodox. That isn’t a minor disagreement. It is significant. I would not attend a worship, much less receive absolution or the Eucharist from a women priest. I would transfer my membership to an ELCA parish if I moved, but I wouldn’t judge their faith either

Jon

I should maybe ask the question differently. The ordination of women to the Lutheran priesthood isn’t an impediment to them (the women) being a legitimate and practicing part of the Lutheran church according to the leadership of the Lutheran church. I guess I’m asking about what the leadership thinks about this. I’m sorry that I didn’t make this clear.

 

[JonNC]

I should maybe ask the question differently. The ordination of women to the Lutheran priesthood isn’t an impediment to them (the women) being a legitimate and practicing part of the Lutheran church according to the leadership of the Lutheran church. I guess I’m asking about what the leadership thinks about this. I’m sorry that I didn’t make this clear.

We in the LCMS do consider it so much an impediment that it keeps our synods from being in communion. Again, I won’t attempt to provide the ELCA reasons for ordaining women, out of respect for them, but we in the LCMS consider it invalid, and heterodox when one looks at the scriptural and historic practice of the Church Catholic.

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

You probably know where I’m going with this, Jon.

No where in the history of the Catholic Church have women received holy orders. You claim that the Lutheran church is a continuation of the Catholic church, but the ordination of women to the Lutheran priesthood means that it is not true. And there’s no one supreme authority in the Lutheran church that can make the decision that women cannot be ordained. This is where papal infallibility comes in handy.

You are probably aware of the penalty that a Catholic bishop receives if he ordains a woman to the priesthood. He is excommunicated. Plain and simple. He can no longer receive the sacraments.

You and other Lutherans here want the Catholic Church to get rid of papal infallibility. But then how will the integrity of the faith be ensured? Pope John Paul ll declared that the church does not have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood. We will never have women ordained to the Catholic priesthood (unless, of course the Catholic Church decides to become Lutheran or adopt the Lutheran way of doing things).

Yet if the Catholic church were to adopt the Lutheran view, then we risk fracturing due to no central or supreme authority to maintain the integrity of the Faith. And then truth will be determined by individuals rather than maintained by a central or supreme authority.

 

[JonNC]

You probably know where I’m going with this, Jon.

No where in the history of the Catholic Church have women received holy orders. You claim that the Lutheran church is a continuation of the Catholic church, but the ordination of women to the Lutheran priesthood means that it is not true. And there’s no one supreme authority in the Lutheran church that can make the decision that women cannot be ordained. This is where papal infallibility comes in handy.

You are probably aware of the penalty that a Catholic bishop receives if he ordains a woman to the priesthood. He is excommunicated. Plain and simple. He can no longer receive the sacraments.

You and other Lutherans here want the Catholic Church to get rid of papal infallibility. But then how will the integrity of the faith be ensured? Pope John Paul ll declared that the church does not have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood. We will never have women ordained to the Catholic priesthood (unless, of course the Catholic Church decides to become Lutheran or adopt the Lutheran way of doing things).

Yet if the Catholic church were to adopt the Lutheran view, then we risk fracturing due to no central or supreme authority to maintain the integrity of the Faith. And then truth will be determined by individuals rather than maintained by a central or supreme authority.

You know, Denise, that there are Catholics in the Old Catholic Church that now ordain women. Of course, the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not responsible for them. Similarly, our synod cannot be held accountable for the practices of others.

For me, the issue of infallibility is woven into that of papal supremacy. I do not see supremacy in the early Church. Poster and friend Pablope has linked interesting documents regarding this, and I am grateful to him, but I am not convinced that it was the intention of Christ or the early Church.

Further, Orthodoxy has maintained itself without this claim of infallibility ex cathedra for any one bishop and in fact, division seems to have been a bigger problem here in the west.

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

You know, Denise, that there are Catholics in the Old Catholic Church that now ordain women. Of course, the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not responsible for them. Similarly, our synod cannot be held accountable for the practices of others.

For me, the issue of infallibility is woven into that of papal supremacy. I do not see supremacy in the early Church. Poster and friend Pablope has linked interesting documents regarding this, and I am grateful to him, but I am not convinced that it was the intention of Christ or the early Church.

Further, Orthodoxy has maintained itself without this claim of infallibility ex cathedra for any one bishop and in fact, division seems to have been a bigger problem here in the west.

Jon

The Orthodox do not ordain women to the priesthood. They have at least maintained that integrity. So…your Lutheran communion believe that the women who are ordained are legitimate priests? I’m not asking what you personally believe, though I understand that individual belief is very important to Lutherans. What does the leadership of your communion have to say about the legitimacy of the women in the other Lutheran communion as priests?

 

[JonNC]

The Orthodox do not ordain women to the priesthood. They have at least maintained that integrity. So…your Lutheran communion believe that the women who are ordained are legitimate priests? I’m not asking what you personally believe, though I understand that individual belief is very important to Lutherans. What does the leadership of your communion have to say about the legitimacy of the women in the other Lutheran communion as priests?

No, the LCMS does not consider them valid. Concerning doctrine, to be Lutheran means one accepts the teaching of the Church.

lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1099

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The Orthodox do not ordain women to the priesthood. They have at least maintained that integrity. So…your Lutheran communion believe that the women who are ordained are legitimate priests? I’m not asking what you personally believe, though I understand that individual belief is very important to Lutherans. What does the leadership of your communion have to say about the legitimacy of the women in the other Lutheran communion as priests?

Yes, Lutheran priests are legitimate regardless of gender. There is difference among us on this issue and even in the ELCA as well as some national/ state churches in Europe/ Africa there is disagreement and some latitude. I was reading on the Liturgy and Sacraments forum a discussion of a female Episcopal priest giving the homily in a Catholic parish forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=898274

The archbishop of Uppsala, the primate of the Lutheran See in Sweden is a woman and there are other female bishops in Lutheran Synods/ Diocese.

 

[Denise1957]

No, the LCMS does not consider them valid. Concerning doctrine, to be Lutheran means one accepts the teaching of the Church.

lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1099

Jon

I can’t find anywhere in the document where it says that the ordination of women is invalid. Could you please point it out?

 

[JonNC]

I can’t find anywhere in the document where it says that the ordination of women is invalid. Could you please point it out?

I’m on my phone at the moment, so let’s try this; can you find a single instance of a female pastor in the LCMS, either by ordination, or more important to your question, via transfer from another Lutheran synod that does ordain females?
If you can’t, that should answer the question, just as surely as it would regarding a transfer from Old Catholic into communion with the Bishop of Rome

Jon

 

[Denise1957]

I’m on my phone at the moment, so let’s try this; can you find a single instance of a female pastor in the LCMS, either by ordination, or more important to your question, via transfer from another Lutheran synod that does ordain females?
If you can’t, that should answer the question, just as surely as it would regarding a transfer from Old Catholic into communion with the Bishop of Rome

Jon

I was hoping that you could provide documentation on the subject. EvangelCatholic says that Lutheran priests are valid regardless of gender. So obviously, there’s disagreement about the validity of women as Lutheran priests.

In Catholicism, only a few women have been illicitly ordained, and they don’t have a large following. There are Catholics who support the idea, but they are in the minority. I hope that your communion can maintain its stance against Lutheran women priests (or ministers). I have to wonder if it’s been infallibly declared by your communion that women cannot receive holy orders. Otherwise, isn’t there a chance they your communion may someday allow women to be ordained?

 

[JonNC]

=Denise1957;12202097]I was hoping that you could provide documentation on the subject. EvangelCatholic says that Lutheran priests are valid regardless of gender. So obviously, there’s disagreement about the validity of women as Lutheran priests.

Yes there is a disagreement, just like there is a disagreement between Catholics on the matter - Rome, and Old Catholics (Utrecht Union).
EC is a member of the ELCA, and his synod does ordain women. I am a member of the LCMS. We, like the Catholic Church and EO, do not ordain women, and do not consider the ordinations valid.

In Catholicism, only a few women have been illicitly ordained, and they don’t have a large following. There are Catholics who support the idea, but they are in the minority. I hope that your communion can maintain its stance against Lutheran women priests (or ministers). I have to wonder if it’s been infallibly declared by your communion that women cannot receive holy orders. Otherwise, isn’t there a chance they your communion may someday allow women to be ordained?

We don’t make infallible declarations, but we do point to scripture. Thanks for your hopes that we maintain orthodoxy on the issue. If the synod does drift from scripture and orthodox Lutheranism, they will do it without me.

Jon

 

[joe371]

Keep in mind that the Church has never accepted human infallibility. This dogma from 1869 as well as the immaculate conception/ assumption of Mary are probably a mistake. Though Lutherans can accept the primacy of the Pope and these Marian beliefs, we can never affirm human infallibility.

That is why I always say that God guides fallible leaders, within His church, including the fallible apostles, who taught infallibly.