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ptisme
Guest
What heresy from a Catholic Theologian would you like answered?
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KjetilK
Guest
You completely missed my point. Just as you are not bound to answer for heretic Catholic theologians, I am not bound to answer for something some ‘Protestant’ somewhere have said. The problem, which I have highlighted several times in this thread, is that the Catholics here are comparing apples and oranges. You aren’t comparing one particular Church with another (say, the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Norway or the Church of England). You are comparing one particular Church with an abstract entity (‘Protestantism’).
The Church of Norway, of which I’m part, was founded long before the Reformation, in 995, and I am not bound to answer for everything said by someone claiming to be a ‘Protestant.’ It would be like demanding that I answer for everything said by Europeans.
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ptisme
Guest
Our beliefs, if grounded in truth, can withstand all scrutiny. The thread is challenging Protestants regarding the merit of them splitting. If you don’t feel bound to answer for the reformation or if you don’t consider your denomination to be part of the Protestant reformation simply ignore the thread.
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Tomyris
Guest
Sorry, the thread is a comic exercise in Catholics insisting that Protestants believe in something (the gap) that the Protestants have said they do not believe in. Catholics charge ahead anyway.
What a waste of time.
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KjetilK
Guest
But you are acting as if ‘Protestantism’ is a meaningful term. It is not. It is a overly general term. Instead you should be taking each particular Church at its own terms. When I’m talking to a member of the Church of England, I don’t make him answer for something said and/or done by a member of the Church of Sweden.
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KjetilK
Guest
And as to the topic of this thread: There is no gap. My Church, the Church of Norway, was founded in 995, and has been going on since then. If we took this ‘gap theory’ far enough, we would have to ask what, say, the Church of Russia should do about the 900 year gap, since it was founded in the 900s. It would be impossible to do missionary work.
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ptisme
Guest
Do you consider yourself a Protestant?
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benhur
Guest
Well it was Constantine that called for some unity and not your version of Apostolic See.You might be on to something… A bunch of little Churches running amock, requiring the Apostolic See to set things straight.
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benhur
Guest
Thanks.Sorry for my generalization on that. I will try to be more careful Benhur (cool name
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KjetilK
Guest
No.
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guanophore
Guest
Jesus only founded one Church therefore, all who belong to Him belong to his One Church.
Jesus’ church is visble, aurhorative and unified.
Jesus commands unity, submission and obedience to authority.
The Reformation occurred because those who were in positions of authority abused their power, so that Christ’s Church could not be recognized, so the flock rebelled, and chose theri own leaders, and moved away from those successors of the Apostles.
Well, to be fair, when they read the New Testament, they could not recognize in the leadership the qualities that should belong to the shepherds of the flock.
And the average person of Europe never heard of the Eastern Orthodox, or ever saw one, so the existence of them was not taken into account by most. Those of the Reformers tht did consider or approached the Orthodox decided their ideas about doctrine were closer to the Truth than what was being taught.
Yes. There are many ways to look at it. There is a significant myth that Constantine started the CC, and that up until then it was pure and on track.
Most Protestants will claim that there have always been"true believers" in the Church, despite the fact that it went off the rails at some point. During the Reformation the Gospel had to be restored because it had gotten lost among indulgenes, purgatory, and the corruption of clerics.
Most Protestants will admit that there has always been a “remnant” within the Church that lost it’s way.
The key issue is authority. We are not to rebel against the authority appointed by Christ,so some say that God tore the rightful authority away from the CC because they fell away from the faith. Some say that authority that the Orthodox and the Catholics claim came from the apostles does not exist.
Some Protestants do believe it, but I agree, it is not useful to ascribe beliefs to those that don’t.
So why are you here?What a waste of time.
For those who have never considered why and how it came to pass that Jesus abandoned His very great and precious promises to the Church, it is a valuable endeavor.
Unlike your self, those of us who are seeking to follow Christ recognize that He calls us to unity,and that it is our responsibility to work toward that unity, and remove all the human institutions that create and maintain it.
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guanophore
Guest
Why is your Church not in unity with the other successors of the Apostles?
You make a good point. If there was a gap, no authority exists to evangelize, because evangelists must be sent.
You may not see yourself as a Protestant, but Lutheranistm did not exist in 995, nor did any “church of Norway”, so at some point a separation occured between the commuion to which you now belong and the successors of the Apostles in the Church founded by Christ. Protest evidently occurred, even if it was not yours.
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ptisme
Guest
Then you probably shouldn’t feel compelled to answer for them.
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steido01
Guest
What else can he do when you lump “us” all together?
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estesbob
Guest
The Church of Norway was established as a CATHOLIC CHURCH in 995. In 1600 it rejected the Church and joined the Lutheran Church
britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/420282/Church-of-Norway
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ptisme
Guest
But he’s not being “lumped” because he doesn’t consider himself part of the Luther originated reformation movement.What else can he do when you lump “us” all together?
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steido01
Guest
No Lutheran would; we believe we are a continuation of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church (we’d say we are the most-correct continuation, too). That’s why this thread is so silly. Unless you’re talking solely to Restorationists (which excludes the vast majority of protestants and consists almost exclusively of modern cults), then no “Protestant” believes in any sort of gap.
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estesbob
Guest
So where was the Lutheran Church prior to Luther? Why did God not reveal the doctrines of Sola Fidelis and Sola Scriptura until Luther came along? You simply can not paper over the theological difference between Luther’s Church and the Church he rejected.
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KjetilK
Guest
Why isn’t the Orthodox Churches in communion, yet are still called Churches in the proper sense? Clearly you do not need to be in communion with the Pope to be a Church, but we should.
The reason we are out of communion with the Roman pontiff is, just like the Orthodox Churches, political.
Yes.
And neither did Eastern Orthodoxy.
That is simply not true. The Church of Norway was established in 995, as a particular Church. You seem to be uninformed about also the Roman Catholic Church. Each diocese and each archdiocese is a particular Church. The archbishopric of Norway was separated from the communion with the pope in 1537, like the Church of Russia was (gradually) separated from the communion with the pope in the middle ages.
Yes, just like the Orthodox Churches, the Polish National Catholic Church, etc.
So? ‘Protestant’ is now a word that has become equivalent, especially in the English language, with low, free church evangelicalism. Therefore I am not Protestant. I am a Catholic of the Latin rite, unfortunately out of communion with the Roman Pontiff.
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KjetilK
Guest
And where was the Orthodox Church before Photios I of Constantinople?
The reason I ask that is that the Roman Catholic Church recognises the Patriarchate of Constantinople as a valid Church, yet they are not in communion, and there was no independent Orthodox Church before the Great Schism.
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