How do protestants explain the 1500 year gap.

[Isaiah45_9]

That wasn’t my point. I said that I do not go to the Roman Catholic Church to ask if the Church of Sweden had valid orders after the Reformation.

Your only other option would be Orthodox. You can have all the opinions in the world, but the bottom line is that there are only two ways to have valid orders with Apostolic Succession. And that is you have it either from the Catholic or Orthodox Church. You can claim Anglican - they used to be Catholics, Lutherans - they used to be Catholic, Old Catholics - well… you know…

There is no escape! We are everywhere at the same time all the time

 

[KjetilK]

Old Catholics - well… you know…

So you actually disagree with your own magisterium, then? They recognise the validity of Old Catholic orders.

 

[KjetilK]

It is quoted in Appendix II, footnote 3, in Fr. John J. Hughes’ STEWARDS OF THE LORD. That book, and Fr. Hughes’ ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID, are 2 titles I often recommend, on the history, personalities, politics and the theology involved in the story of Apostolicse curae. For a good treatment of the basic RC position, Francis Clark’s (at the time, Fr. Clark, SJ) ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION is recommended.

Thanks.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So you actually disagree with your own magisterium, then? They recognise the validity of Old Catholic orders.

Where did I say that? What I meant was the obvious… you know… Old Catholics still get their AS and Holy Orders from whom? Catholics.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So you actually disagree with your own magisterium, then?

Oh and BTW, I disagree with my Magisterium all the time. They put me straight… but that doesn’t mean I don’t disagree.

 

[KjetilK]

Where did I say that? What I meant was the obvious… you know… Old Catholics still get their AS and Holy Orders from whom? Catholics.

They get it from their own bishops.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

They get it from their own bishops.

And their own Bishops from Catholic Bishops

 

[GKC]

Thanks.

You are very welcome.

GKC

 

[KjetilK]

And their own Bishops from Catholic Bishops

Your point being?

 

[awsiukiewicz]

I wonder about these things…also.particularly how anyone studying in a Protestant Seminary’school…don’t reach points where they really have to question what they are being taught…asside from great aplogists like Dr. Scott Hahn…(read his conversion story) it’s really fascinating…I always…wonder …who they/Protestants think actually put the Bible together…decided what books would be kept etc. etc. not to mention the fact that Monks copied them…PAX

 

[Per_Crucem]

I wonder about these things…also.particularly how anyone studying in a Protestant Seminary’school…don’t reach points where they really have to question what they are being taught…asside from great aplogists like Dr. Scott Hahn…(read his conversion story) it’s really fascinating…I always…wonder …who they/Protestants think actually put the Bible together…decided what books would be kept etc. etc. not to mention the fact that Monks copied them…PAX

The Orthodox.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Your point being?

To give you a remedy for that Catholic allergy.

But on a serious note. Your posts seem to ignore the fact that without us (Catholics), you would have absolutely not Apostolic Succession or Holy Orders. Stressed on you insistence of calling us Roman Catholic Church, pointing to the unpleasantness of calling us the actual name we bear: Catholic Church. We also have Eastern Catholics, and while the Latin Rite comprises the vast majority, your use of the “gentilicio” (Sorry, I don’t know how to translate that word in English) Roman, only demonstrates a weakness in recognizing our true name and hints at minimizing our true universality.

Not once did you mention that your AS and Holy Orders come from the Catholic Church and have, in fact, mentioned Sweden, Anglican and Old Catholics. All of which [also] derive it from us.

Thanks,

A Catholic Church member.

 

[KjetilK]

But on a serious note. Your posts seem to ignore the fact that without us (Catholics), you would have absolutely not Apostolic Succession or Holy Orders.

And neither would the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC), yet your Church doesn’t seem to have a problem saying they have valid orders. And you seem to forget that this thread is not about ‘ideal circumstances’ but about whether or not ‘Protestants’ need to explain some ‘gap.’ Since the PNCC doesn’t need to explain its ‘1897 or 1907 year old gap,’ Lutherans who have valid orders doesn’t need to explain some ‘gap’ either.

And IIRC, Pope Pius X did call your Church the Roman Catholic Church in one of his encyclicals, and he included in this all the particular Churches (including the eastern rites). And the full name of the Orthodox Churches is the Orthodox Catholic Churches.

 

[guanophore]

And neither would the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC), yet your Church doesn’t seem to have a problem saying they have valid orders. And you seem to forget that this thread is not about ‘ideal circumstances’ but about whether or not ‘Protestants’ need to explain some ‘gap.’ Since the PNCC doesn’t need to explain its ‘1897 or 1907 year old gap,’ Lutherans who have valid orders doesn’t need to explain some ‘gap’ either.

And IIRC, Pope Pius X did call your Church the Roman Catholic Church in one of his encyclicals, and he included in this all the particular Churches (including the eastern rites). And the full name of the Orthodox Churches is the Orthodox Catholic Churches.

This is quite true, but the thread is really not directed at Lutherans, since that communion is only 500 some years old. It is directed toward those evangelical/fundamentalists who believe that the CC went “off the rails” about the time of Constantine. In fact, there are many of them who believe that Constantine founded the CC.

So if Christians “lost” the true gospel from that time until this, how is this “gap” explained? Did the visage of the powerful Jesus shepherding His Church we seen in the book of Revleation get tired, or sick? Was the Holy Spirit unable to communicate with the faithful until the modern birth of fundamentalism?

 

[KjetilK]

This is quite true, but the thread is really not directed at Lutherans, since that communion is only 500 some years old. It is directed toward those evangelical/fundamentalists who believe that the CC went “off the rails” about the time of Constantine. In fact, there are many of them who believe that Constantine founded the CC.

So if Christians “lost” the true gospel from that time until this, how is this “gap” explained? Did the visage of the powerful Jesus shepherding His Church we seen in the book of Revleation get tired, or sick? Was the Holy Spirit unable to communicate with the faithful until the modern birth of fundamentalism?

I’m not entirely sure about that. Adamski, who started this thread, explicitly mentioned Lutherans in the OP.

 

[ragsbinwashed]

This is quite true, but the thread is really not directed at Lutherans, since that communion is only 500 some years old. It is directed toward those evangelical/fundamentalists who believe that the CC went “off the rails” about the time of Constantine. In fact, there are many of them who believe that Constantine founded the CC.

So if Christians “lost” the true gospel from that time until this, how is this “gap” explained? Did the visage of the powerful Jesus shepherding His Church we seen in the book of Revleation get tired, or sick? Was the Holy Spirit unable to communicate with the faithful until the modern birth of fundamentalism?

So, this “gap” is finally explained. Your post seems to assume that in the CC are the only Christians. The fact is that there has always been a “remnant” “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Rev.12:17. So, there is no “gap”.

rags

 

[JonNC]

So, this “gap” is finally explained. Your post seems to assume that in the CC are the only Christians. The fact is that there has always been a “remnant” “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Rev.12:17. So, there is no “gap”.

rags

I don’t think Guanophore is claiming that Christians are only in the CC.
The reason there is no gap is because the word has been preached and the sacraments administered since Pentecost in the Catholic Church, in Orthodoxy, and in other traditions of Christ’s Church.

Who were the remnant ?

Jon

 

[ragsbinwashed]

I don’t think Guanophore is claiming that Christians are only in the CC.
The reason there is no gap is because the word has been preached and the sacraments administered since Pentecost in the Catholic Church, in Orthodoxy, and in other traditions of Christ’s Church.

Who were the remnant ?

Jon

The question probably should be, Who are the remnant?
Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

rags

 

[guanophore]

I’m not entirely sure about that. Adamski, who started this thread, explicitly mentioned Lutherans in the OP.

I think it would be fair to say that Luther believed the Gospel had been obscured, but Luther was more Catholic than anyone else in the Reformation. He never claimed that the Church went off the rails, only that the present leaders had.

As far as I cn tell, Lutherans consider themselves a valid continuation of hte Catholic faith, so I don’t think there is any 1500 year “gap” to explain.

 

[guanophore]

So, this “gap” is finally explained. Your post seems to assume that in the CC are the only Christians. The fact is that there has always been a “remnant” “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Rev.12:17. So, there is no “gap”.

rags

I don’t think I assumed or purported anything of the kind.

The question, though is not about individual Christians, it is about the Church. Jesus established a visible, authorative church that He promised to lead into “all Truth”. This Church was founded upon the apostles and prophets. The Apostles passed the authority given them by Christ to their successors, the Bishops.

So if Christians claim that the Church somehow got “lost” between the NT and the Reformation, one has to wonder where, how, and why? Were all those people who believed they were “church” just deceiving themselves?