How do Protestants interpret 2 Corinthians 5:18?

[Third_Day]

So then, was Zacharias a pagan priest because he is described as hiereus in Luke 1? Or what about Jesus himself who is refered to as archiereus in Hebrews? Then when 1 Peter 2 calls us a royal priesthood it uses hieratuma. Are all these referring to pagan priesthoods?

From my limited knowledge the Greek *hiereus *is a general term that refers to any priest that offers sacrifice whether he is Jewish or pagan but Kohen is a Hebrew word for a Jewish priest.

 

[Third_Day]

**Third Day **"Could a Baptist Minister ever say, “Repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of repentance?”

=Zenas;7602904] Yes but he probably would not. Baptists don’t go in for penance. Baptists believe once a sin is forgiven, there is nothing else to be done–no works, no penance–because it’s not necessary. He more likely would advise the person refrain from further sinning.

Those words were said by Paul in Acts 26:20. Seems like a Baptist minister would want to say those words since they believe Paul was Protestant and believed in faith alone.

 

[Third_Day]

The ministry of reconciliation is not limited to those who have been formally ordained. Are we not all called upon to evangelize? By telling others of Jesus, through whom reconcilation takes place, we are performing a ministry of reconciliation.

There is nothing to indicate that Paul is referring to two different groups when he says God reconciled us to Himself (this clearly is not limited to those ordained) and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

Would you say that your ministery of reconcillation includes forgiving sins like adultery, fornication etc?

 

[Esdra]

If your neighbor commits adultery with your spouse can you forgive him of that adultery and that means he is also forgiven by God?

You maybe can’t - but with God’s help you can.
If he repents, he’s forgiven by God, yes. If he is a Child of God. (i.e. not a non-Christian) - As far as I know.

Jesus told the apostles “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive the sins of any they are not forgiven.” John 20:23

Does that verse apply to every Christian?

Actuallly yes, I’ve always interpreted this verse to apply to every Christian. Even before I became a Baptist and was searching for a Church that believe more or less the same than I do.

 

[Zenas]

Those words were said by Paul in Acts 26:20. Seems like a Baptist minister would want to say those words since they believe Paul was Protestant and believed in faith alone.

Baptists don’t quote everything Paul said. Some more of the seldom quoted passages:

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. Colossians 1:24.

I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:27.

If it has to do with works, suffering or disciline, you won’t hear it often from a Baptist pulpit.

 

[Esdra]

Would you say that your ministery of reconcillation includes forgiving sins like adultery, fornication etc?

We, as priests (priesthodd of all), don’t forgive sins at all! Only Jesus does so.

1. I think you have to devide between forgiving one’s neighbour, if he has hurt you (either way: psychological or physical).
2. And the forgiving of sins against God. If you are a Child of God, and you repent, God will forgive you in His mercy. - No Priest, and not other person can forgive such sins except God Himself!

And if he really has repented before God and God has forgiven him, the sinning person should go to the person whom he has sinned against and ask for forgiveness. So we are at point 1 again.

What Jesus meant with 2 Cor 5:18 is IMO, the first type of sins. The same with Jn 20:23!

Because we simply can’t forgive sins against God (No. 2)! Only God can and He will in His mercy, because (after we have accepted Him as our Saviour), are His adopted children whom He loves above anything!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We, as priests (priesthodd of all), don’t forgive sins at all! Only Jesus does so.

1. I think you have to devide between forgiving one’s neighbour, if he has hurt you (either way: psychological or physical).
2. And the forgiving of sins against God. If you are a Child of God, and you repent, God will forgive you in His mercy. - No Priest, and not other person can forgive such sins except God Himself!

And if he really has repented before God and God has forgiven him, the sinning person should go to the person whom he has sinned against and ask for forgiveness. So we are at point 1 again.

What Jesus meant with 2 Cor 5:18 is IMO, the first type of sins. The same with Jn 20:23!

Because we simply can’t forgive sins against God (No. 2)! Only God can and He will in His mercy, because (after we have accepted Him as our Saviour), are His adopted children whom He loves above anything!

To read in context, I think a person has to read who was being addressed by Christ. There were times He spoke to everyone and there were times He addressed the men He chose and appointed over His Church.

Start at John 13 and read through. Pay specific attention to the audience Christ spoke to.

Jesus only told those He chose and appointed that those sins they forgave would be forgiven and the sins they retained would be retained. This was not said to the multitudes in a sermon.

 

[Third_Day]

=Esdra;7603393]You maybe can’t - but with God’s help you can.
If he repents, he’s forgiven by God, yes. If he is a Child of God. (i.e. not a non-Christian) - As far as I know.

In my example the man confessed his adultery only to you. He never asked God to forgive him. Was that sin forgiven by you?

Actuallly yes, I’ve always interpreted this verse to apply to every Christian. Even before I became a Baptist and was searching for a Church that believe more or less the same than I do.

So you are saying that in John 20:22-23 Jesus is giving the Holy Spirit to every Christian and the authority to forgive or not forgive sins?.
Are you saying that a stranger could come up to you and ask you to forgive him of his sin of adultery and you could forgive him and that sin is forgiven in heaven?

 

[Third_Day]

=Esdra;7603426]We, as priests (priesthodd of all), don’t forgive sins at all! Only Jesus does so.

According to scripture God gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles. John 20:23

1. I think you have to devide between forgiving one’s neighbour, if he has hurt you (either way: psychological or physical).

If your neighbor sins against you then, yes, you need to forgive him. But what if a stranger comes to you and asks to be forgiven of his adultery, can you forgive the stranger?

1. And the forgiving of sins against God. If you are a Child of God, and you repent, God will forgive you in His mercy. - No Priest, and not other person can forgive such sins except God Himself!

Can’t God use a priest as his instrument to forgive? In 2 Cor. 2:6-11 isn’t Paul saying that he forgave a man in the " personna" person of Christ?

No Priest, and not other person can forgive such sins except God Himself

How do you explain Matthew 9:6-8 “But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he then said to the paralytic, " Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it they were afraid and they glorified God who had given such authority to men."

What Jesus meant with 2 Cor 5:18 is IMO, the first type of sins. The same with Jn 20:23

In John 20:23 Jesus gave the apostles the Holy Spirit and told them whose sins they forgive are forgiven and whose sins they do not forgive are not forgiven.

Because we simply can’t forgive sins against God (No. 2)!

Could the apostles forgive sins?

 

[Esdra]

In my example the man confessed his adultery only to you. He never asked God to forgive him. Was that sin forgiven by you?

If he only confessed to me and not to God, no then I could not forgive him his sin.
But actually, can a Catholic forgive sins if someone only confesses to him and not to God. (?)

So you are saying that in John 20:22-23 Jesus is giving the Holy Spirit to every Christian and the authority to forgive or not forgive sins?.
Are you saying that a stranger could come up to you and ask you to forgive him of his sin of adultery and you could forgive him and that sin is forgiven in heaven?

Actually yes, if it applies to point 1 in my last post.

 

[Esdra]

According to scripture God gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles. John 20:23

If your neighbor sins against you then, yes, you need to forgive him. But what if a stranger comes to you and asks to be forgiven of his adultery, can you forgive the stranger?

No, then I can’t. Because only Christ can forgive sins. But I can tell the foreigner to go to the person whom he sinned against and tell him that he should ask for forgiveness. And I can tell him that he should take Jesus as his Saviour. And then ask for forgiveness directly at God. And I can tell him that He will surely forgive him, as He loves Him. And I could give him the bible-verse: "7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. " (Mattehw 7:7-8)

Can’t God use a priest as his instrument to forgive? In 2 Cor. 2:6-11 isn’t Paul saying that he forgave a man in the " personna" person of Christ?

How do you explain Matthew 9:6-8 “But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he then said to the paralytic, " Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it they were afraid and they glorified God who had given such authority to men."

Uhm, Jesus is God, the Son of God, isn’t He? He has the authority of God, because He IS God. ( “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30) Didn’t I before say that ONLY Jesus (and God) can forgive sins?

In John 20:23 Jesus gave the apostles the Holy Spirit and told them whose sins they forgive are forgiven and whose sins they do not forgive are not forgiven.

Yes, because this links to type nummer 1 I wrote in my previous post.
By the way: The HS wasn’t only promised to the Apostles but to ALL believers:

15** And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.**
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
(Acts 11:15-18)

Could the apostles forgive sins?

No, but they asked God to do so, and He did.

 

[Third_Day]

=Esdra;7603957]If he only confessed to me and not to God, no then I could not forgive him his sin.

Jesus clearly told the apostle," As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" Wasn’t Jesus sent to forgive the sins of all men?

Jesus then tells the apostles, “Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you retain they are retained.”
Clearly the apostles were sent, just like Jesus was, to forgive the sins of all men not just men that they personally offended.
Can you forgive the sins of any man?

But actually, can a Catholic forgive sins if someone only confesses to him and not to God. (?)

No. I can’t forgive anyone sins. If someone offends me I can forgive them personally but I hcan’t forgiven the sin they commited against God. If somone bears false witness against me that is not only an offense against me but it is also a sin against God.

Actually yes, if it applies to point 1 in my last post.

Christ gave the power to “retain” sins. If we are to go to God alone, how can you retain a sin?

 

[Esdra]

Oh God, I’m getting a headache with you.

Jesus clearly told the apostle," As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" Wasn’t Jesus sent to forgive the sins of all men?

Of course ALL Christians are sent to preach the gospel?!

Jesus then tells the apostles, “Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you retain they are retained.”
Clearly the apostles were sent, just like Jesus was, to forgive the sins of all men not just men that they personally offended.

Well, then the apostles did have the power to forgive sins. I don’t know any other argument against an organized priesthood… which is apparently your point.

Can you forgive the sins of any man?

No, as I have stated before.

No. I can’t forgive anyone sins. If someone offends me I can forgive them personally but I hcan’t forgiven the sin they commited against God. If somone bears false witness against me that is not only an offense against me but it is also a sin against God.

Isn’t that exactly the same thing I mentioned above?

Btw, I’ve made a mistake: I wanted to write

Esdra:

But actually, can a Catholic **priest **forgive sins if someone only confesses to him and not to God. (?)

Christ gave the power to “retain” sins. If we are to go to God alone, how can you retain a sin?

At the moment I don’t know what it means to retain sins… If I happen to know, I’ll tell you.

Btw, could a (Catholic) priest (as he can, according to CC teaching, forgive sins) retain sins? And when would he do so?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Of course ALL Christians are sent to preach the gospel?!

Well, then the apostles did have the power to forgive sins. I don’t know any other argument against an organized priesthood… which is apparently your point.

Btw, could a (Catholic) priest (as he can, according to CC teaching, forgive sins) retain sins? And when would he do so?

Using the concept you apparently use when reading scriptures I’d like to ask that you please show us in scriptures where Christ commanded the multitudes, in one of His sermons, to go out and preach the Gospel?

As I said in my previous post, that you evidently missed, starting at John 13 we see the only audience Christ addresses until His arrest is the Apostles. There were times Christ taught the multitudes and times He taught His Apostles/Disciples. It appears a lot of Protestants apply everything to themselves. Why didn’t Christ grant ‘blanket’ authority to the multitudes, if Protestants are right today in assuming everything to themselves?

If someone was not contrite in a confession, a priest might retain the sin.

 

[Third_Day]

=Esdra;7604228]Of course ALL Christians are sent to preach the gospel?!

Not exactly. How can someone be sent by God to teach error? Some Protestants say you can lose your salvation some say you can’t. One of them is teaching error. Were the ones teaching error sent by God to teach error or did they send themsleves?

Well, then the apostles did have the power to forgive sins.

I thought your argument was that no man has the power to forgive sins.

At the moment I don’t know what it means to retain sins… If I happen to know, I’ll tell you

.
Yes please do.and then answer this question. If the meaning of John 20:23 is that we are to confess to God alone, without the absolution of a priest, how could sins be retained?

Btw, could a (Catholic) priest (as he can, according to CC teaching, forgive sins) retain sins? And when would he do so?

Yes, a Catholic priest according to scripture can forgive or retain sins. If a man were to confess his sins of adultery and after talking to him the priest determined the man was not sincere of repenting the priest could decide not to forgive the man’s sins.

 

[Esdra]

Not exactly. How can someone be sent by God to teach error? Some Protestants say you can lose your salvation some say you can’t. One of them is teaching error. Were the ones teaching error sent by God to teach error or did they send themsleves?

Man, you are asking things. I am not an apologetic…

I believe that if we are once saved, we are always saved… So this group is right.

I thought your argument was that no man has the power to forgive sins.

I don’t know… I think the Apostles themselves can’t forgive sins (at least not the sins of foreigners against other foreigners. Which would be point 2.). But they can ask Jesus to do so and He will forgive.

Yes please do.and then answer this question. If the meaning of John 20:23 is that we are to confess to God alone, without the absolution of a priest, how could sins be retained?

I’ve really never thought of the thing with retaining sins. Even when I was a (more or less uncatechised) Catholic. I’ll ask our (Baptist) pastor and then tell you the position of “my Church”.

Yes, a Catholic priest according to scripture can forgive or retain sins. If a man were to confess his sins of adultery and after talking to him the priest determined the man was not sincere of repenting the priest could decide not to forgive the man’s sins.

I’ve never heard of that…
Also not in (Catholic) Religious Instruction in school. (And actually I was quite good in that subject! ) (The thing that a priest could retain sins. Not the fact that he can, according to Catholic doctrine, forgive sins.)

 

[Esdra]

Using the concept you apparently use when reading scriptures I’d like to ask that you please show us in scriptures where Christ commanded the multitudes, in one of His sermons, to go out and preach the Gospel?

As I said in my previous post, that you evidently missed, starting at John 13 we see the only audience Christ addresses until His arrest is the Apostles. There were times Christ taught the multitudes and times He taught His Apostles/Disciples. It appears a lot of Protestants apply everything to themselves. Why didn’t Christ grant ‘blanket’ authority to the multitudes, if Protestants are right today in assuming everything to themselves?

If someone was not contrite in a confession, a priest might retain the sin.

For me the multitude that listened to Jesus were not “Christians”. However, the Apostles were. And everything, IMO, that was given to the Apostles was also given to us present day Christians.

Of course there are also offices, as not everyone has the same gifts of the Holy Spirit.
(cf. 1 Cor. 12:1-11) → Btw, our pastor has held a nice sermon about 1 Cor 12.

So there are pastors, presbyters etc. But those are only offices. There is nothing “special” linked with these offices. That they’d be superior to the “laity” (which doesn’t exist in Baptist Churches - as everyone’s a priest) and they can do no thing that the others can’t, except i.e. a preacher can preach BETTER.
I think you got me…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

For me the multitude that listened to Jesus were not “Christians”. However, the Apostles were. And everything, IMO, that was given to the Apostles was also given to us present day Christians.

Of course there are also offices, as not everyone has the same gifts of the Holy Spirit.
(cf. 1 Cor. 12:1-11) → Btw, our pastor has held a nice sermon about 1 Cor 12.

So there are pastors, presbyters etc. But those are only offices. There is nothing “special” linked with these offices. That they’d be superior to the “laity” (which doesn’t exist in Baptist Churches - as everyone’s a priest) and they can do no thing that the others can’t, except i.e. a preacher can preach BETTER.
I think you got me…

The multitudes were not Christians, yet multitudes followed Him anytime they heard He was around? Also, He preached the good news to them teaching them His way? I’m afraid I strongly disagree with you. Were the disciples that left Him and walked with Him no more not ‘Christians’? (John 6:66)

There is nothing special about the offices?

**

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church

; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. **

We are all equals?

Heb 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

 

[Third_Day]

=Esdra;7604341]Man, you are asking things. I am not an apologetic…
I believe that if we are once saved, we are always saved… So this group is right.

Since you believe the other group is wrong and is teaching error, do you still hold that everyone is sent by the Holy Spirit to preach?

I don’t know… I think the Apostles themselves can’t forgive sins (at least not the sins of foreigners against other foreigners. Which would be point 2.). But they can ask Jesus to do so and He will forgive.

That’t not what the text says. The apostles, by God-given authority, could forgive sins or they could retain sins. Matthew 9:8 says that same authority **that Jesus had **to forgive sins on earth was given to MEN.

I’ve really never thought of the thing with retaining sins. Even when I was a (more or less uncatechised) Catholic

.
It is somthing to thnk about.

I’ll ask our (Baptist) pastor and then tell you the position of “my Church”.

Please do. I will be interested in what he says.

 

[jericho777]

Have you checked a concordance for word usage in the scriptures? The NT does not differentiate between pagan Jewish or Christian usage. This is what I have found used in context speaking about Jesus.

KJV with Strong’s
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place Thou (Jesus) art a priest (2409.hiereus) for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Here even Jesus is identified with the word you say is only used for pagan priests.

There is no office of priest in the NT Jesus only specified Pastor/shepheard for the church.

Ephesians 4:10-12 (New International Version, ©2010
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors (4166. Poimén) and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

You are correct with this usage.

The Greek word presbuteros has many meanings.
4245 presbuteros {pres-boo’-ter-os} comparative of presbus (elderly); TDNT - 6:651,931; adj 1) elder, of age, 1a) the elder of two people 1b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior 1b1) forefathers 2) a term of rank or office 2a) among the Jews 2a1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably 2c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God.