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How do Protestants rationalize King Henry VIII, and his selfish non-spiritual motivation?
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GKC
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Pretty close.I thought it looked like Space Mountain at Disneyworld…
As to the actual discussion at hand - I am admittedly the most amateur of historians, but I have always chalked the Henry VIII vs. Rome as mainly political, not religious. I believe that Henry wanted to keep most of the Catholic beliefs intact, he just didn’t want Rome having power and money that he felt was a threat to him.
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GKC
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Cela suffit.Amateurs, aren’t we all! It does look like Space Mountain! Or perhaps Snake Mountain where Skeletor lived on He-Man!
Henry VIII was political. Dynastic marriages, as GKC points out, were political and religious intertwined and to be fair, other Catholics had been given decrees of nullity (gotta get that verbage right or GKC, my Jedi Master, will fillet me) with much less of a cause than Henry. But the family conflicts of interest really influenced the pope more than Henry. I look at the pope as being more driven by power plays and intimidated by the ramifications of granting a decree of nullity to Henry in that he’d irk the family of Catherine of Aragon…Holy Roman Empire ramifications. I think the pope wasn’t behaving out of pure morally-pure motivations either.
GKC could make the case better than moi…
GKC
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aicirt
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I’m not sure just how the Anglican Church is set up but during the recent wedding, a commentator noted that the Archbishop of Canterbury answers only to the Queen. Gave me the feeling that maybe there was a board of some kind but when it gets to that level, the Queen has the final say.
Also the Chruch of England would not allow Princess Anne etc. to marry because she was divorced so she went to Scotland and wed there through the Church of Scotland.
Also the Chruch of England would not allow Princess Anne etc. to marry because she was divorced so she went to Scotland and wed there through the Church of Scotland.
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GKC
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The Queen is titiualr head of the CoE, no real power.
At one point recently, the CoE had stricter rules on marriages than did the RCC. No provision for things like decrees of nullity, in the 1950s.
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GKC
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Look what you might have had. Scroll down to the sketch of Lutyen’s proposal.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Metropolitan_Cathedral
GKC
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Metropolitan_Cathedral
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gurneyhalleck1
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That thing totally reminds me of the IO tower in the 1982 classic “Tron!”
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gurneyhalleck1
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Watch this Tron clip at look at the scene at the time of 1:11 exactly. It’s this church! 
youtube.com/watch?v=LFBzQ7rUW5U&NR=1
youtube.com/watch?v=LFBzQ7rUW5U&NR=1
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Izdaari
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Among Protestant historical figures, I owe some of my theology to Martin Luther and John Calvin, and some to John Wesley, and at least a little to Aimee Semple McPherson. I owe none at all to Henry VIII.
The sins of Henry VIII are his own problem, in whatever afterlife he’s in. They’re not my problem. You know, as I remember my Catholic Church history, some Popes weren’t very good people either.
The sins of Henry VIII are his own problem, in whatever afterlife he’s in. They’re not my problem. You know, as I remember my Catholic Church history, some Popes weren’t very good people either.
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Eric_Hilbert
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And the topic is…?
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KathleenGee
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I have to put this in…humor wise…the Cathedral in Japan reflects the native people’s way of reflecting…I also see origami…don’t mean to be disrespectful…but growing up with Japanese Americans and having Japanese exchange students – great gift bearers as well, you do see artistic lines as such…and I think the Japanese among the most respectful and honest people in the world…you lose your purse there, you get it back. I love their manners…
But my question about Henry the VIII, a church founded on him, his behaviors, etc…makes me recall my Episcopalian friends who converted to Catholicism…one of the things that made them convert was recognizing their church based on Henry and his lusts that conflict with Catholic/Christian morality. The husband eventually joined the very first diaconate in Seattle and was ordained, wonderful, nurturing family.
One of the practices of the earliest gatherings of Eucharistic Christians was to make solemn oaths…to not lie or steal or commit adultery…
But my question about Henry the VIII, a church founded on him, his behaviors, etc…makes me recall my Episcopalian friends who converted to Catholicism…one of the things that made them convert was recognizing their church based on Henry and his lusts that conflict with Catholic/Christian morality. The husband eventually joined the very first diaconate in Seattle and was ordained, wonderful, nurturing family.
One of the practices of the earliest gatherings of Eucharistic Christians was to make solemn oaths…to not lie or steal or commit adultery…
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The_Old_Medic
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The Presbyterian Church had absolutely NOTHING to do with Henry VIII. The Presbyterian church came from The Church of Scotland, which was primarily framed by Henry Knox. He believed that the Anglican Church was far too “Popish”, and he despised it with a passion.
If you are going to make an argument, it helps if you actually know something about the history of the various Protestant churches. Henry VIII had ONLY to do with the Anglican church, which he kept as Catholic as possible, just breaking it off from Rome. This had absolutely nothing to do with the German Protestants (at least 5 different forms), the French Protestants (3 major forms), the Swiss Protestants (two major churches) and so on.
In fact, Henry VIII was given the title of “Defender of the Faith” by the pope, because he wrote a rather brilliant article about why the Continental Protestants were absolutely wrong in what they proposed.
If you are going to make an argument, it helps if you actually know something about the history of the various Protestant churches. Henry VIII had ONLY to do with the Anglican church, which he kept as Catholic as possible, just breaking it off from Rome. This had absolutely nothing to do with the German Protestants (at least 5 different forms), the French Protestants (3 major forms), the Swiss Protestants (two major churches) and so on.
In fact, Henry VIII was given the title of “Defender of the Faith” by the pope, because he wrote a rather brilliant article about why the Continental Protestants were absolutely wrong in what they proposed.
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Dave_B
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As someone who attends a Church of England church most weeks, I can say its a subject thats never been mentioned. I agree with other posters who have said that protestants generally are ignorant of how their church was founded.
The church of England is a bit peculiar in that it is protestant in its theology and catholic in its appearance. Certainly at the church I attend their is a lot of history, as the church predates the reformation and was originally run by monks. But the vicar teaches the protestant creeds of faith alone and bible alone.
The church of England is a bit peculiar in that it is protestant in its theology and catholic in its appearance. Certainly at the church I attend their is a lot of history, as the church predates the reformation and was originally run by monks. But the vicar teaches the protestant creeds of faith alone and bible alone.
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Dave_B
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This is true, but later in his life, he dissolved the monastaries, broke the British Isles from the Catholic religion to get a divorce, he refused to accept Papal authority, stole the church wealth in the UK to fight wars in France, and established a new Church with himself as Head of this church. Hardly a good catholic
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gurneyhalleck1
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Depends on the Anglicans. There are Anglo-Catholics that would disagree with your assessment that Anglicans are Protestant in their theology/content and just show. Some Anglo-Catholics have worship and beliefs that are more catholic than a lot of Catholic dioceses!
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GKC
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And the reason Henry got the title of Defensor Fidei was not merely because of the Assertio Septum Sacramentorum. Like history in general, the story is more complicated than that. Interesting, too. I’ve posted it a couple of times, but only when invited.This is true, but later in his life, he dissolved the monastaries, broke the British Isles from the Catholic religion to get a divorce, he refused to accept Papal authority, stole the church wealth in the UK to fight wars in France, and established a new Church with himself as Head of this church. Hardly a good catholic
Oh, and decree of nullity.
GKC
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KathleenGee
Guest
I guess I must say here I am sharing from an intuitive experience I had…and I know Catholics who have left the Church, and joined the Episcopalian because it is more inclusive…
I was watching a liturgy of the Mass on television, not EWTN…then some movements were different, yes, language in British English…at first I thought it Roman Catholic…but something was different…turned out it was Protestant Episcopalian.
They have followers of Saint Francis, Mother Mary…their own Franciscans and Marians…third orders…assume it is Anglican…but I did not experience the presence of the sacrament, the Eucharist…
I pray every day for the unity of Christians…Lord, make us One…I say that especially now after having just read an article that interdenominational Christian churches are being burned down to the ground all over the world and the media is not reporting it.
I was watching a liturgy of the Mass on television, not EWTN…then some movements were different, yes, language in British English…at first I thought it Roman Catholic…but something was different…turned out it was Protestant Episcopalian.
They have followers of Saint Francis, Mother Mary…their own Franciscans and Marians…third orders…assume it is Anglican…but I did not experience the presence of the sacrament, the Eucharist…
I pray every day for the unity of Christians…Lord, make us One…I say that especially now after having just read an article that interdenominational Christian churches are being burned down to the ground all over the world and the media is not reporting it.
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gurneyhalleck1
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You were Episcopalian then? I’m confused. Are you saying you didn’t feel you experienced the Sacrament of the Eucharist when you were with TEC? You were talking about seeing something on TV then it sounded like you were there once?
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psychicharvard
Guest
So basicly no one has a solid answer. Okay, that’s fair. To address
A king, president, sultan, emperor can be overthrown. But, a prophet can’t. Perhaps Henry VIII learned history of King David (regarded as a King-Prophet) and Muhammad (self regard as prophet-king). Those Prophet-King cannot be overthrown. In both cases, they hold the highest spiritual as well as physical power among their people.
In regards to King David, the Jewish religion was existed prior to King David, and Muhammad is founder of Islam, not considered a Christian religion, so that is difficult to accept.
And as far as lumping all Protestants into this historical action, well yes, this is where all Protestant religions came from, because without the Reformation and the decision of King Henry the VIII most of North and Northwestern Europe would still be Catholic, and thus their descents into the Americas. Also I understand that a flawed man can create something great, I believe this too, but there is a difference between flawed and murderous and ego-menical not to mentioning murderous of the women you married, bed, and even had a child with and setting that child’s mother up to be murdered because she wouldn’t go away quietly and let you marry another woman. Also it wasn’t that Henry was just flawed but he put the whole of Europe and England into chaos because he couldn’t get his way with an annulment. And I know there are issues with the Pope, and we’re suppose to believe he is infallible, but most Catholics will roll their eyes to this and shake their heads. One thing about Catholicism is that you can disagree and still be considered Catholic. Also I guess you could say how nice it was for King Henry VIII was for allowing new prayer books and the like, but these things were done because Henry was putting in place a new religion that would allow him to do what he wanted and he needed to replace the things he was tearing away by taking away the Catholic religion. No more rosary, but look here’s a prayer book, and thanks for letting me get married a few more times. Again, he wasn’t doing this for spiritual reasons, only to put his power into place The one thing that does bother me is that someone mentioned that many Protestants don’t know the history of how it came about very well, and this disturbs me because I think as a human being it’s our duty to know where and how are spiritual beliefs evolved especially when it comes from recent history, and such a well known figure like King Henry VIII, I mean it’s all over tv and the history books, how can it be ignored. Now I know not all Protestants (and yes, everyone who came about as a result of the Reformation are considered Protestants, although Mormonism is debatable) think poorly of Catholics, but many do try to tell us how wrong we are. I compare this to me, a Catholic telling a Buddhist how they are. I mean their religion is 500 years older than Christianity and centers on a peaceful former prince, rather than the dramatic killing of the savior who sent by his father to be killed, and I’m going to attempt to tell them how I am correct, and expect them to listen. I mean…In short, I just when and if Protestants have issue with Catholics they should really remember history, and not conveniently. I a myself am friends with different people and never make an issue of religion because I haven’t sat with God face to Deity so how do I really know what the Almighty would like us to do, but I have noticed that many Protestant friends will bring it up sooner or later. But from what it looks like to me it’s that just thinking about the origins would mess up their sense of faith so it’s forgotten, which I understand but in that case you really don’t have the standing to look down or question another person’s belief system.
A king, president, sultan, emperor can be overthrown. But, a prophet can’t. Perhaps Henry VIII learned history of King David (regarded as a King-Prophet) and Muhammad (self regard as prophet-king). Those Prophet-King cannot be overthrown. In both cases, they hold the highest spiritual as well as physical power among their people.
In regards to King David, the Jewish religion was existed prior to King David, and Muhammad is founder of Islam, not considered a Christian religion, so that is difficult to accept.
And as far as lumping all Protestants into this historical action, well yes, this is where all Protestant religions came from, because without the Reformation and the decision of King Henry the VIII most of North and Northwestern Europe would still be Catholic, and thus their descents into the Americas. Also I understand that a flawed man can create something great, I believe this too, but there is a difference between flawed and murderous and ego-menical not to mentioning murderous of the women you married, bed, and even had a child with and setting that child’s mother up to be murdered because she wouldn’t go away quietly and let you marry another woman. Also it wasn’t that Henry was just flawed but he put the whole of Europe and England into chaos because he couldn’t get his way with an annulment. And I know there are issues with the Pope, and we’re suppose to believe he is infallible, but most Catholics will roll their eyes to this and shake their heads. One thing about Catholicism is that you can disagree and still be considered Catholic. Also I guess you could say how nice it was for King Henry VIII was for allowing new prayer books and the like, but these things were done because Henry was putting in place a new religion that would allow him to do what he wanted and he needed to replace the things he was tearing away by taking away the Catholic religion. No more rosary, but look here’s a prayer book, and thanks for letting me get married a few more times. Again, he wasn’t doing this for spiritual reasons, only to put his power into place The one thing that does bother me is that someone mentioned that many Protestants don’t know the history of how it came about very well, and this disturbs me because I think as a human being it’s our duty to know where and how are spiritual beliefs evolved especially when it comes from recent history, and such a well known figure like King Henry VIII, I mean it’s all over tv and the history books, how can it be ignored. Now I know not all Protestants (and yes, everyone who came about as a result of the Reformation are considered Protestants, although Mormonism is debatable) think poorly of Catholics, but many do try to tell us how wrong we are. I compare this to me, a Catholic telling a Buddhist how they are. I mean their religion is 500 years older than Christianity and centers on a peaceful former prince, rather than the dramatic killing of the savior who sent by his father to be killed, and I’m going to attempt to tell them how I am correct, and expect them to listen. I mean…In short, I just when and if Protestants have issue with Catholics they should really remember history, and not conveniently. I a myself am friends with different people and never make an issue of religion because I haven’t sat with God face to Deity so how do I really know what the Almighty would like us to do, but I have noticed that many Protestant friends will bring it up sooner or later. But from what it looks like to me it’s that just thinking about the origins would mess up their sense of faith so it’s forgotten, which I understand but in that case you really don’t have the standing to look down or question another person’s belief system.
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