How do Protestatnts defend the canon of the NT

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The Councils of Hippo and Carthage did not determine the canon of the New Testament. The historical fact of the matter is that the NT was in use by the Church since it was written. By the year 200, 95% of the NT books were widely used. Athanasius listed our modern NT canon in 367. .
The term NT presupposes that it was canonized. It was not even by the end of the 2nd century. Writings that much later comprised the canon were used **along with many other non-canonical writings **in the Church. The NT did not canonize itself.
 
It’s incorrect to say Hippo & Carthage didn’t set the NT canon, there were Deuterocanonical books in the new testament as well including Revelation and Hebrews.
 
Not by any authority, but by a judicious application of Scripture, Tradition, Reason and Experience. (AKA the Wesleyan Quadrilateral – which not all Protestants believe in using, but I do.)
Scripture, tradition and historical succession. Reason and experience are great but the gnostics used reason and experience as well as a multitude of other heretics. Many modern liberal scholars use reason and experience to deconstruct Jesus.
 
TriuneUnity,

The tripod of rule of faith, scripture and apostolic succession all presuppose authority in one way or another. Do we use inspiration as the defining criteria for scripture that became canonized?
Inspiration is the sole basis for which the canon is the canon. If God inspired a book, it is canonical, if it isn’t inspired, it isn’t canonical.
 
Jon Hus,

There is no dispute in the NT Canon because the issue was settled at Hippo and 2 councils of carthiage and finally made doctrinal at trent… Before all of this there was a lot of dispute about the NT canon as well as the OT… Hebrews and Revelation are two notables…
As other posters have mentioned, there are a number of lists of NT canon in the writings of the ANFs, some with slight variation. The subject was debated apparently outside of any council for years. The fact that any council approved the canon is actually the weakest arguement for the listing. If you were really interested in knowing the standards used to define the canon you would be asking that question instead of trying to make the case that because a group of bishops in Asia Minnor in the 4th century voted on a list of NT books to be considered the canon and therefore anyone who claims to be a Christian better be subject to the Roman Pope today.
In fact isn’t it your protestant brothers who defend Luther’s attempts to alter the NT canon (drop James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation) by attempting to say “he wasn’t trying to do anything other people weren’t talking about at the time”…
The reason why I say you are not listening is not to be mean and nasty. Martin Luther translated the NT from the Greek to German. Interesting fact, Luther was not the first to translate the Bible into German but his was the first to be sucessful and was read by a wide range of Germans. Anyway, we know this, Luthers Bible included all of the 27 books including James and Hebrews. If he wanted to eliminate them he would not have gone to the trouble of translating them and putting them in his edition of the Bible. So, there has to be more to the story than what you are saying. But I understand you need a reason to argue your case and you feel that you are making hay with this line and so be it.
 
As other posters have mentioned, there are a number of lists of NT canon in the writings of the ANFs, some with slight variation. The subject was debated apparently outside of any council for years. The fact that any council approved the canon is actually the weakest arguement for the listing. If you were really interested in knowing the standards used to define the canon you would be asking that question instead of trying to make the case that because a group of bishops in Asia Minnor in the 4th century voted on a list of NT books to be considered the canon and therefore anyone who claims to be a Christian better be subject to the Roman Pope today.
This argument might make sense from a protestant perspective because your tradition has bucked all authority, but it just doesn’t jive with history. Agustin in the fourth going into fifth century wrote Jerome about the books now called canonical. Think about this for a minute, it took that long for anyone to start calling any book canonical. There’s something else implied here, that after the first 3 councils (which Jerome and Agustin were contemporary with) people stopped questioning which books were canonical. That is to say, the issue was settled then. So much for bucking the importance of a group of Bishops in Asia minor.
The reason why I say you are not listening is not to be mean and nasty. Martin Luther translated the NT from the Greek to German. Interesting fact, Luther was not the first to translate the Bible into German but his was the first to be sucessful and was read by a wide range of Germans. Anyway, we know this, Luthers Bible included all of the 27 books including James and Hebrews. If he wanted to eliminate them he would not have gone to the trouble of translating them and putting them in his edition of the Bible. So, there has to be more to the story than what you are saying. But I understand you need a reason to argue your case and you feel that you are making hay with this line and so be it.
Technically Luther included all 73 books, but the 7 OT Duetero’s + James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation were all seperated from the books Luther accepted as canonical because he was interested in his followers stopping reading those books. He also included introductory paragraphs like this RE James:

"I do not look upon it as the writing ot any Apostle, and this is my reason. First of all, because in direct opposition to St. Paul, and to all the other Scriptures, it (the Epistle of St. James) attributes justification to the works, and says, Abraham was justified by his works when he sacrificed his son. Whereas St . Paul, Rom. 4, on the contrary, teaches that Abraham was justified without works, through his faith alone Secondly (I reject the Epistle), because it professes to instruct Christians, and in such a long treatise (lere), it does not even mention the Passion, the Resurrection, the Spirit of Christ . Whatever does not teach Christ, that is not apostolic, even if Peter or Paul were to teach it . Whereas, whatever teaches Christ, that is apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate and Herod were to do it. But this James does nothing else but drive on to the law and to its works, and he mixes up things in such disorder, that I should say he was some good, pious man, who had heard certain sayings from the disciples of the Apostles, and then committed them ,vo paper; or perhaps it (the Epistle) has been taken from

his own discourse by some one else Therefore, I will not have him in my Bible in the number of the truly principal books: but I will not forbid any one to place him and to keep him as he pleases.
"

The argument that Luther was not interested in changing the NT canon is refuted by his own pen.
 
=crazzeto;6625308]This argument might make sense from a protestant perspective because your tradition has bucked all authority, but it just doesn’t jive with history. Agustin in the fourth going into fifth century wrote Jerome about the books now called canonical. Think about this for a minute, it took that long for anyone to start calling any book canonical. There’s something else implied here, that after the first 3 councils (which Jerome and Agustin were contemporary with) people stopped questioning which books were canonical. That is to say, the issue was settled then. So much for bucking the importance of a group of Bishops in Asia minor.
“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome **out **of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.”
Cardinal Cajetan
Technically Luther included all 73 books, but the 7 OT Duetero’s + James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation were all seperated from the books Luther accepted as canonical because he was interested in his followers stopping reading those books. He also included introductory paragraphs like this RE James:
I believe that commentary was only in his first publishing of the NT.

I’m baffled that, if in fact he wanted his followers to stop reading the books, he took the great time and effort to translate them and include them. Seems to me if he didn’t want them read, he wouldn’t have translated them, much less included them.
Then, he regularly preaches from them throughout his life. Sounds to me like he did want people to read them, and learn from them.
Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle;
Luther

Sounds much like the sentiments of Cajetan above.
The argument that Luther was not interested in changing the NT canon is refuted by his own pen.
Actually, he questioned the canon in the same way many others did.

Jon
 
Inspiration is the sole basis for which the canon is the canon. If God inspired a book, it is canonical, if it isn’t inspired, it isn’t canonical.
Do you believe then that the sole test for canonicity is inspiration?
Do you believe that the documents that came to form the NT were the only documents that the early Church viewed as inspired?
 
since it was the bishops of the Catholic Church working under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost who determined what the canon of the NT is at the councils of Hippo (393 AD) & Carthage (397 AD)?

Anytime a Protetstant sites a NT verse, they are (unknowingly) acknowledging the authority of the bishops of the CC, which is ultimately the authority of the CC itself.

Anyone know what the typical protestant response to this (their) dilemma is?

This is just another example that brings Cardinal Newman’s famous quote to mind, " To be steeped in history is to cease being protestant"
There was variety of canonical lists in the 4th and 5th centuries that implies even the Church had not settled the matter for all. The NT Catholicity does not equate with the Church being the only source of the canon’s authority. However the judgement of the Church using these documents is crucial for their wide scale acceptance. If the Church was not using a document it probably wasnt orthodox or apostolic. I like how Campenhausen puts it

"The Church is indeed the place in which the definitive verdict on the worth or worthlessness of individual writings is handed down; for the Church-- if one may complete the thought along Irenaean lines–has within her the living canon, the Spirit of truth which has been active from the beginning, and to which she remains faithful."
 
QUOTE=ncstevem;6623436]since it was the bishops of the Catholic Church working under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost who determined what the canon of the NT is at the councils of Hippo (393 AD) & Carthage (397 AD)?
Anytime a Protetstant sites a NT verse, they are (unknowingly) acknowledging the authority of the bishops of the CC, which is ultimately the authority of the CC itself.
Anyone know what the typical protestant response to this (their) dilemma is?
This is just another example that brings Cardinal Newman’s famous quote to mind, " To be steeped in history is to cease being protestant"
The Catholic church was persecuted and underground for the first 400 years. When the persecution was lifted, the Pope and Catholic Bishops surfaced and counciled to canonize the scriptures for her Catholic Mass liturgies.

The Catholic Church determined which letters (books) were authentic and inspired of God by exercising her God given divine authority to bind and loose which books failed the scrutiny even though they had Apostolic names attached, and which books were to CONTINUE to be used in the Catholic Church Mass liturgy celebrations while she was under persecution.

Thus the New Testament today is the same New Testament that the Catholic Church used while under persecution and after the persecution was lifted.

The New Testament NEVER conflicts with the Catholic Mass or Apostolic Catholic doctrinal teachings. In fact this includes the Old Testament also, because the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament (Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him** in all **the scriptures.) and the Old Testament gets revealed and fulfilled in the New Testament.

The Catholic Church canonized the bible for Her Liturgical Mass as practiced today 2000 years and counting unchanged, which was handed down to her from Jesus and the original Apostles.

The Catholic Church did not canonize the bible for Martin Luther to come along 1600 years later and add the word “alone” to Romans, and reject 7 of her canonized books to start a man made theology of Sola scriptura, Sola fide with them.

Protestants should be aware of, that their was no canon of scripture for the first 400 years of Christianity, Just the Catholic Church Popes and Catholic Bishops who maintained the Apostolic teachings as we have them today written in the New Testament and practiced by the Catholic Church in her Liturgical Mass unchanged.

The New Testament cannot be apart from the Apostolic Catholic liturgical Mass, the two are one in the same, because the New Testament are the memoirs of the Apostolic Catholic Church being lived out these past 2000 years in her Catholic Mass. The New Testament “the Word of God” truly becomes present body, blood soul and divinity in the Catholic Mass. This is truly worship of God in Spirit and Truth.

To claim to a service of worship using only the bible without the True Presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity when the Word of God is made flesh; Is just a letter written on a page with a desire of God in ones spirit falling victim to ones emotions without ever having the awesome presence of God in their midst, as does the Catholic Apostolic liturgical Mass, which encompassess the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (True presence of Jesus) where we worship God in Spirit and Truth. It is here where God truly dwells with the human race.

In summary; The Catholic Church came first before the bible, and the bible was canonized for the Catholic Church Liturgies in order to live out the scriptures (memoirs) teachings and revelations of Jesus and his Apostles.

Peace be with you
 
since it was the bishops of the Catholic Church working under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost who determined what the canon of the NT is at the councils of Hippo (393 AD) & Carthage (397 AD)?
There are a lot of assumptions here which you don’t bother to defend.
  1. That the current Christian body in communion with Rome (what you call the “Catholic Church”) is the sole legitimate heir to the ancient Catholic Church of which you speak.Apart from the question of whether Protestants really lack all continuity with that historic Catholic Church, you run smack up against the perfectly good claims of the Orthodox.
  2. That the bishops were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that such inspiration is necessary for us to recognize the canon of Scripture; and
  3. That the councils of Hippo and Carthage were actually as decisive as you claim.
When you provide evidence for all these things, then we can start to talk about the Protestant dilemma.

Or you could reword your case to make it less dependent on these difficult and dubious matters. You could start by inquiring as to what particular Protestants believe about the historical continuity of the Church and about the formation of the canon, and then you could tailor your argument accordingly. That means that an argument against Anglicanism will be a lot more complex and nuanced than one against fundamentalism. I recognize that this is inconvenient, but if you really care about truth it’s what you have to do.
This is just another example that brings Cardinal Newman’s famous quote to mind, " To be steeped in history is to cease being protestant"
No, it’s another example of how easy it is to be confident of the error of views about which you have not bothered to inquire.

Edwin
 
But if the Church is correct about being the original Church founded by Christ, and correct about the authority she had in those days (at least) and correct in her actions at council, then don’t you see already how you are compelled to accept her completely? Because all of those truths rest in the fact that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and infallible…
no no

infallibility is not a logical conclusion from these premises, especially not for all Protestants
 
There are a lot of assumptions here which you don’t bother to defend.

What’s to defend? For the first 1600 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, history records only a Catholic Church in all the world of Christendom. Islam came along long before Protestantism.

There is no Anglican Church or any other protestant Church to speak of in existence. Protestants cannot defend the canon of the New Testament. Protestants come along to late in history. The best a protestant can do is protest the Apostolic Catholic canon of scripture and remove books to fit their new man made theologies.

Are you speaking about the Eastern Orthodox who remain in communion with the Pope these past 2000 years or the few Orthodox communities who refuse communion with the Pope and their Eastern Orthodox Brethren? because all of the above remain Catholic.

The tear (schism) from the few Orthodox who protest the authority of Peter’s Chair given by Jesus is not the same matter as protestants who broke off Apostolic succession and valid holy orders and valid sacraments is a whole different set of strokes.
 
In fact isn’t it your protestant brothers who defend Luther’s attempts to alter the NT canon (drop James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation) by attempting to say “he wasn’t trying to do anything other people weren’t talking about at the time”…
And God didn’t allow it to happen. Praise the Lord.

The fact he didn’t succeed with what he intended (alter the New Testament canon) proves that God approves that New Testament canon.
 
What’s to defend? For the first 1600 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, history records only a Catholic Church in all the world of Christendom. Islam came along long before Protestantism.

There is no Anglican Church or any other protestant Church to speak of in existence. Protestants cannot defend the canon of the New Testament. Protestants come along to late in history. The best a protestant can do is protest the Apostolic Catholic canon of scripture and remove books to fit their new man made theologies.

Are you speaking about the Eastern Orthodox who remain in communion with the Pope these past 2000 years or the few Orthodox communities who refuse communion with the Pope and their Eastern Orthodox Brethren? because all of the above remain Catholic.

The tear (schism) from the few Orthodox who protest the authority of Peter’s Chair given by Jesus is not the same matter as protestants who broke off Apostolic succession and valid holy orders and valid sacraments is a whole different set of strokes.
There always were Protestants. What is a Protestant? Obviously, someone that protests. Many people protested against the teachings of the Catholic Church, but if you called them heretics and burned them alive well … what church could develop in that case? By the way, burning heretics is against the teachings of Jesus and He Himself condemned it.
 
since it was the bishops of the Catholic Church working under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost who determined what the canon of the NT is at the councils of Hippo (393 AD) & Carthage (397 AD)?

Anytime a Protetstant sites a NT verse, they are (unknowingly) acknowledging the authority of the bishops of the CC, which is ultimately the authority of the CC itself.

Anyone know what the typical protestant response to this (their) dilemma is?
I don’t see this as a dilemma. The churches of the Reformation did not spring up out of nothing, with no history. The first fifteen hundred years of Church history is our history as well. That includes the formation of the canon of the New Testament. As far as acknowledging the authority of the 4th century bishops goes, that, too, is a part of our shared history. No non-Catholic that I know rejects everything that happened before 1517 although there may be some who think they do.

To be sure, Luther took issue with some books in the NT but, as others have noted, he did not remove them and actually translated them into German to make them more accessible to the people. Any Bible I have ever used has included the full canon and I am fairly certain that this is true for all non-Catholics.
 
I don’t see this as a dilemma. The churches of the Reformation did not spring up out of nothing, with no history. The first fifteen hundred years of Church history is our history as well. That includes the formation of the canon of the New Testament. As far as acknowledging the authority of the 4th century bishops goes, that, too, is a part of our shared history. No non-Catholic that I know rejects everything that happened before 1517 although there may be some who think they do.

To be sure, Luther took issue with some books in the NT but, as others have noted, he did not remove them and actually translated them into German to make them more accessible to the people. Any Bible I have ever used has included the full canon and I am fairly certain that this is true for all non-Catholics.
I think the OP is referring to the authority of the episcopate that Protestants reject. I think the OP is implying that Protestants want to have their cake and eat it also.
 
There always were Protestants. What is a Protestant? Obviously, someone that protests.
So anyone who protests against Catholic teaching is a Protestant?

Gnostics were Protestants, Arians were Protestants, etc.

Is that really the spiritual heritage you want to claim?
Many people protested against the teachings of the Catholic Church, but if you called them heretics and burned them alive well … what church could develop in that case?
Please give me examples of people who were burned alive in the first millennium of the Church’s history.

In fact, give me examples of people during that period who were executed for religious reasons (no matter the manner of execution) at the instigation of the Church.

And clearly you don’t agree with Tertullian that “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.”

Edwin
 
I think the OP is referring to the authority of the episcopate that Protestants reject. I think the OP is implying that Protestants want to have their cake and eat it also.
What good is having cake if one can’t eat it?:D:D:D:D

That’s an old adage that I have never understood.🤷
 
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