How do Protestatnts defend the canon of the NT

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QUOTE=simspt;6701501]Apart from the NT writers do you think the early church viewed the DCs as having authority and scriptural status?
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Here are a few Early Church Fathers quoting the DC books as an equal to the NT books. For more see; scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

“Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? Or, who shall resist the power of His strength?’[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. ‘The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.’[Ps. 19:1-3].” Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5 (c. A.D. 80).

“‘Be just in your judgement’ [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. ‘Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving’ [Sirach 4:31].” Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).

"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms delivers from death’[Tobit 4:10,12:9]. Be all of you subject one to another? [1 Pt 5:5] having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,’ [1 Pt 2:12] that ye may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! [Isa 52:5] Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct.” Polycarp, To the Phillipians, 10 (A.D. 135).

“For, when one reads of God as being ‘the searcher and witness of the heart’ [Wisdom 1:6]; when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart, ‘Why think ye evil in your hearts?’[Matt 9:4] when David prays ‘Create in me a clean heart, O God’[Ps 51:12], and Paul declares, ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness,’[Romans 10:10] and John says, 'By his own heart is each man condemned’[1 John 3:20]; when, lastly, ‘he who looketh on a woman so as to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart’ [Matt 5:28],–then both points are cleared fully up, that there is a directing faculty of the soul…” Tertullian, On the Soul, 15 (A.D. 197).

“[New Testament books…] The Epistle of Jude, indeed, and two belonging to the above-named John–or bearing the name of John–are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour.” Muratorian Fragment (A.D. 200).

“Our instruction comes from ‘the porch of Solomon,’ who had himself taught that ‘the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart’[Wisdom 1:1].” Tertullian, Prescription Against the Heretics, 7 (A.D. 200).

“For they remembered also the words of Jeremias writing to those over whom that captivity was impending: ‘And now ye shall see borne upon men’s shoulders the gods of the Babylonians, of gold and silver and wood, causing fear to the Gentiles. Beware, therefore, that ye also do not be altogether like the foreigners, and be seized with fear while ye behold crowds worshipping those gods before and behind, but say in your mind, Our duty is to worship Thee, O Lord’[Baruch 6:3]. Therefore, having got confidence from God, they said, when with strength of mind they set at defiance the king’ s threats against the disobedient: ‘There is no necessity for our making answer to this command of yours. For our God whom we worship is able to deliver us from the furnace of fire and from your hands; and then it will be made plain to you that we shall neither serve your idol, nor worship your golden image which you have set up’[Daniel 3:16]’” Tertullian, Scorpiace, 8 (A.D. 205).

“And again He says, ‘Come all to Me, who labour, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest’[Matt 11:28]; and that which is added the Lord speaks in His own person. And very clearly He calls to goodness by Solomon, when He says, ‘Blessed is the man who hath found wisdom, and the mortal who hath found understanding’[Prov 3:13]. ‘For the good is found by him who seeks it, and is wont to be seen by him who has found it’[Prov 2:4,5;3:15]. By Jeremiah, too, He sets forth prudence, when he says, ‘Blessed are we, Israel; for what is pleasing to God is known by us’[Baruch 4:4]–and it is known by the Word, by whom we are blessed and wise. For wisdom and knowledge are mentioned by the same prophet, when he says, ‘Hear, O Israel, the commandments of life, and give ear to know understanding.’[Baruch 3:9] By Moses, too, by reason of the love He has to man, He promises a gift to those who hasten to salvation. For He says, ‘And I will bring you into the good land, which the Lord sware to your fathers’ [Deut 31:20].” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor ,I:8 (A.D. 202).

“[H]aving heard the Scripture which says, ‘Fasting with prayer is a good thing’[Tobit 12:8].” Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, 6:12 (A.D. 202).
 
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Here are a few Early Church Fathers quoting the DC books as an equal to the NT books. For more see; scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

“Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? Or, who shall resist the power of His strength?’[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. ‘The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.’[Ps. 19:1-3].” Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5 (c. A.D. 80).

“‘Be just in your judgement’ [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. ‘Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving’ [Sirach 4:31].” Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).

"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms delivers from death’[Tobit 4:10,12:9]. Be all of you subject one to another? [1 Pt 5:5] having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,’ [1 Pt 2:12] that ye may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! [Isa 52:5] Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct.” Polycarp, To the Phillipians, 10 (A.D. 135).

“For, when one reads of God as being ‘the searcher and witness of the heart’ [Wisdom 1:6]; when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart, ‘Why think ye evil in your hearts?’[Matt 9:4] when David prays ‘Create in me a clean heart, O God’[Ps 51:12], and Paul declares, ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness,’[Romans 10:10] and John says, 'By his own heart is each man condemned’[1 John 3:20]; when, lastly, ‘he who looketh on a woman so as to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart’ [Matt 5:28],–then both points are cleared fully up, that there is a directing faculty of the soul…” Tertullian, On the Soul, 15 (A.D. 197).

“[New Testament books…] The Epistle of Jude, indeed, and two belonging to the above-named John–or bearing the name of John–are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour.” Muratorian Fragment (A.D. 200).

“Our instruction comes from ‘the porch of Solomon,’ who had himself taught that ‘the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart’[Wisdom 1:1].” Tertullian, Prescription Against the Heretics, 7 (A.D. 200).

“For they remembered also the words of Jeremias writing to those over whom that captivity was impending: ‘And now ye shall see borne upon men’s shoulders the gods of the Babylonians, of gold and silver and wood, causing fear to the Gentiles. Beware, therefore, that ye also do not be altogether like the foreigners, and be seized with fear while ye behold crowds worshipping those gods before and behind, but say in your mind, Our duty is to worship Thee, O Lord’[Baruch 6:3]. Therefore, having got confidence from God, they said, when with strength of mind they set at defiance the king’ s threats against the disobedient: ‘There is no necessity for our making answer to this command of yours. For our God whom we worship is able to deliver us from the furnace of fire and from your hands; and then it will be made plain to you that we shall neither serve your idol, nor worship your golden image which you have set up’[Daniel 3:16]’” Tertullian, Scorpiace, 8 (A.D. 205).

“And again He says, ‘Come all to Me, who labour, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest’[Matt 11:28]; and that which is added the Lord speaks in His own person. And very clearly He calls to goodness by Solomon, when He says, ‘Blessed is the man who hath found wisdom, and the mortal who hath found understanding’[Prov 3:13]. ‘For the good is found by him who seeks it, and is wont to be seen by him who has found it’[Prov 2:4,5;3:15]. By Jeremiah, too, He sets forth prudence, when he says, ‘Blessed are we, Israel; for what is pleasing to God is known by us’[Baruch 4:4]–and it is known by the Word, by whom we are blessed and wise. For wisdom and knowledge are mentioned by the same prophet, when he says, ‘Hear, O Israel, the commandments of life, and give ear to know understanding.’[Baruch 3:9] By Moses, too, by reason of the love He has to man, He promises a gift to those who hasten to salvation. For He says, ‘And I will bring you into the good land, which the Lord sware to your fathers’ [Deut 31:20].” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor ,I:8 (A.D. 202).

“[H]aving heard the Scripture which says, ‘Fasting with prayer is a good thing’[Tobit 12:8].” Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, 6:12 (A.D. 202).
thanks for the link
 
Gabriel of 12:
It appears you are jumping loops and hurdles of history to support your new claim of St. Jerome’s “opinion” determined the DC books as non canonical?
Jerome rejected the canonocity of the DC’s. There is nothing new about this and it is common knowledge. I suppose you can say he was wrong but that doesn’t change what his opinion was.
Gabriel of 12:
…St. Jerome obeyed the “Church” and included the DC books in his translation.
Jerome did include the DC’s and along with them he included prologues to each DC which clearly expressed his doubts as to their canonocity.
Gabriel of 12:
What you fail to realize here is that St. Jerome never determined the canon of books, the Catholic Church canonized the bible books as we have them today. St. Jerome translated the “already authenticated canon books”.
There was no infallible decision on this matter until Trent. The early councils were provincial in nature and had no authority to make their decision binding on the church universal.
Gabriel of 12:
St. Jerome obeyed the Pope and included the DC books in his Vulgate.
Do you think the pope also ordered Jerome to include the prologues to the DC which clearly and explicitly rejected the canonocity of the deutero’s?

Why do you think the church sent out the vulgate which expressly rejected the DC’s canonocity?
Gabriel of 12:
Martin Luther 1100 years later removed the DC books and relabeled them as “uninspired of God” = apocrypha, who not only doubted the DC books as St. Jerome and the second century Jews, Luther left his mind and called God’s Word in the DC books as uninspired. Luther did a lot worse than that of St. Jerome.
As far as I know Luther’s opinion of the DC’s was no different than Jerome’s. Even at Trent we see the Tridentine fathers expressing doubt as to the DC’s canonocity. Since there was no binding decision regarding the DC’s canonocity Luther did nothing noteworthy by labeling them as non-canonical.
Gabriel of 12:
It would of been better had Luther just added his opinion of the DC books, instead of making himself “infallible” to remove 7 bible books from the bible.
Luther did include the DC books in his translation and did add his opinion that they were/are not canonical.
Gabriel of 12:
So your late argument to use St.Jerome a Catholic Saint who obeyed the Catholic church by jumping loops and hurdles to make it appear as though St. Jerome agrees with Protestants to remove them from the Canon bible is just ludicrous.
I suggest you read up on this issue. It’s rather common knowledge that Jerome did not accept the DC’s. I’m not sure why this should bother you since he was quite free to do so because there was no binding issue regarding the DC’s canonocity until Trent.
Gabriel of 12:
Protestants need to stop trying to pit Catholic Saints against the Catholic Church, this is not happening.
Why don’t you go to newadvent.org and look at their section on the canon of the OT and you will see that even they (hardly a pro-Protestant website) acknowledge that Jerome rejected the DC’s as being canonical.
Gabriel of 12:
“LXX never ='s DCl” this deceptive tactic may work on non catholics and protestants but it does not work on this Catholic. History predates the septuagint that the Catholic church uses before Jesus Christ birth.
My position is that there is no way to know how many versions or which books were included in the septuagint of the first century.

If you think you can prove me wrong why don’t you tell us what manuscript did the first century (or earlier) Jews used? Vaticanus? Alexandrinus? Some other manuscript?
How do you know which books they used? How do you know there was only one version of the LXX?
Gabriel of 12:
Can you name other Septuagint’s used in the first century by Jesus and the Jews?
That is the point. No one (which includes me) knows what books were included in the septuagint used during the first century. The earliest manuscripts we have are all Christian manuscripts and date only to the fourth century at the earliest. As a side note, none of these septuagint manuscripts match the Catholic OT.
Gabriel of 12:
Question? Are you suggesting if a quote or revelation from the OT is not quoted in the New Testament that the OT book not quoted from is not inspired of God? See the problem with your fallacy argument?
I think I conceded this point in my first post on this thread. However, simple quotation does not prove canonocity either.
Gabriel of 12:
Tell you what you pick one quote from the 300+ quotes from the Septuagint or DC books in the New Testament from the source you mentioned. There does not exist one best example they are all “inspired of God”.
You seem to constantly and incorrectly equate the septuagint with the DC books. The DC books are a sub-set of the septuagint. Quoting from the LXX would not infer that Jesus or the apostles thought the DC’s to be inspired.
Gabriel of 12:
For your pleasure, here is one of many verbatim quote that applies to this topic using one DC quote and one New Testment quote. I don’t know what this is going to prove to you remembering that Jesus did not quote from many of the OT canon which did not or does not disqualify them as non canonical.

Sirach 5:13 Be swift to hear, but slow to answer. 14
If you have the knowledge, answer your neighbor; if not, put your hand over your mouth.

James 1:19 Know this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to hear, 11 slow to speak, slow to wrath,

Others you may want to view?
Wisdom 2:12-20 with Matthew 27:41-43, and 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and 2 Maccabees 10:1-8 with John 10:22-36.
Thanks, I"ll take a look at the above quotes.
 
Hi, Semper,

Just wondering if you think a criterion for Scriptural canonicity is that the writer considered it to be inspired?
 
As far as I know Luther’s opinion of the DC’s was no different than Jerome’s. Even at Trent we see the Tridentine fathers expressing doubt as to the DC’s canonocity. Since there was no binding decision regarding the DC’s canonocity Luther did nothing noteworthy by labeling them as non-canonical.
And Jerome is always mentioned as some sort of “proof” that Jerome did not accept the DC as canonical. Does not matter, Jerome submitted his will for the will of the church. It is not about one person’s will or opinion,but the entire church. More important, this whole issue over the DC became more of an issue with the Protestant Reformation. The early church used the LXX as its Bible and I have two Protestant Bibles confirming it.

This is a never ending argument which has no beginning or end. Protestants want to have less books,by all means… Protestants have a longer OT than the Jews. So why so much fuss over an issue that will go on and on?
 
And Jerome is always mentioned as some sort of “proof” that Jerome did not accept the DC as canonical. Does not matter, Jerome submitted his will for the will of the church. It is not about one person’s will or opinion,but the entire church. More important, this whole issue over the DC became more of an issue with the Protestant Reformation. The early church used the LXX as its Bible and I have two Protestant Bibles confirming it.

This is a never ending argument which has no beginning or end. Protestants want to have less books,by all means… Protestants have a longer OT than the Jews. So why so much fuss over an issue that will go on and on?
Jerome was such a heavy weight that his opinion, which was that the DCs were usefull but not cannonical, assured that the RCC cannon was not settled until Trent.
 
Jerome submitted his will for the will of the church.
Since Jerome submitted his will to the will of the church I suppose it was the church’s will to have Jerome include his prologues to the DC’s in the vulgate, the prologues which clearlly rejected the DC’s canonocity??
The early church used the LXX as its Bible and I have two Protestant Bibles confirming it.
The LXX manuscripts which we have knowledge of do not match the RCC’s OT. The early church was not monololithic on this issue.
This is a never ending argument which has no beginning or end. Protestants want to have less books,by all means… Protestants have a longer OT than the Jews. So why so much fuss over an issue that will go on and on?
Two things. First, this doesn’t have to be an argument. Personally I find the subject of the OT to be very interesting and enjoy discussing it. Secondly, I am unaware that the Protestant canon if longer than the OT Jews. Can you explain?
 
Apart from the NT writers do you think the early church viewed the DCs as having authority and scriptural status?
The church was not monolithic on this issue. This issue was not settled for the RCC until Trent and even at Trent the Tridentine fathers were divided on the issue of the DC’s canonocity.
 
Good. Then it seems like a peculiar comment you made here:

Why would that matter if you don’t consider it a criterion?
Simple quotation in the NT would or at least should not lead someone to believe a work is inspired. For example, Jude 9 quotes the Testament of Moses and Paul quotes Menander, Epimenedes, and other Greek authors. In light of this one can not logically claim simple quotation ipso facto means the quoted work was thought to be canonical or should be considered canonical.

The way in which a work is quoted is important or at least may be important. As far as I know there are no non-canonical works quoted with a “thus saith the Lord” or an “it is written”.

So, simple quotation doesn’t really imply canonical status. The manner in which something is quoted seems to give us a hint as the how the work was viewed.

My point is that even if I am wrong on no DC being quoted in the NT I have never seen a supposed quote from a DC handled by the NT in such a way that would indicate it was viewed as canonical.
 
Exactly what did Jesus quote?
How about Tobit 4:15?

And, just so we’re clear, you are still maintaining that it doesn’t matter if an author thought something was “inspired” for it to be considered canonical, correct?
 
How about Tobit 4:15?

And, just so we’re clear, you are still maintaining that it doesn’t matter if an author thought something was “inspired” for it to be considered canonical, correct?
The Book of Tobit 4:15 Do that to no man which thou hatest: drink not wine to make thee drunken: neither let drunkenness go with thee in thy journey.

???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Jerome submitted his will for the will of the church.
Since Jerome submitted his will to the will of the church I suppose it was the church’s will to have Jerome include his prologues to the DC’s in the vulgate, the prologues which clearlly rejected the DC’s canonocity??
And at the end were the DC’s included? How did the prologue affect the final 46 OT canon at any council? BTW: I am curious to know why Protestants have no issue with the same councils who canonized the 27 NT canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
The early church used the LXX as its Bible and I have two Protestant Bibles confirming it.
The LXX manuscripts which we have knowledge of do not match the RCC’s OT. The early church was not monololithic on this issue.
The early church was not monlotithic on this issue? Precisely why it took 400 years to determine and as stated in the end the OT contained 46,not 39.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325

This is a never ending argument which has no beginning or end. Protestants want to have less books,by all means… Protestants have a longer OT than the Jews. So why so much fuss over an issue that will go on and on?
Two things. First, this doesn’t have to be an argument. Personally I find the subject of the OT to be very interesting and enjoy discussing it. Secondly, I am unaware that the Protestant canon if longer than the OT Jews. Can you explain?
Well it is on going issue which really ends up no where that is my point.My mistake,I meant to say that the numbers differ only because the Jews reckoned certain groups of books as one, such as the two books of Samuel, the two books of Kings, and the Twelve Minor Prophets which were originally written on a single scroll.

Sorry my apologies.
 
How about Tobit 4:15?

And, just so we’re clear, you are still maintaining that it doesn’t matter if an author thought something was “inspired” for it to be considered canonical, correct?
Let’s assume that Jesus does quote from Tobit. What does that mean in light my previous post (i.e. pagan sources are quoted several times in the NT)?
 
Let’s assume that Jesus does quote from Tobit. What does that mean in light my previous post (i.e. pagan sources are quoted several times in the NT)?
I suppose you’re right–it determines nothing.

Clearly, then, there is no criteria given to us to help us in determining what’s canonical. That was the Church’s job.

Could you provide me with the chapter and verses for the NT quotes that cite pagan sources? (And what are the pagan sources again?) Thanks.
 
Well, you’ve gone and changed the idea of unity we were discussing. We were discussing the unity of denominations.

But I will comment on this: you are wrong to suggest that only Christians can love a neighbor as much as oneself. Your suggestion to the contrary is incredibly self-righteous and narrow.
Gotta call you on that one Larkin. You are saying (make sure am getting your point correctly that others that are not Christians can indeed love a neighbor as oneself).

Now to play this ga:eek:me according to your rules what is it to love a neighbor as one self? Would that imitate Christ? Of course it would.

What is it to be a Christian, to be Christ like correct.

So now lets play it your way, how could loving your neighbor as oneself not be Christlike? So if you indeed keep this command and love your nieghbor as yourself you are being a Christian rather you like it or not!
 
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