How Do Saints Hear Us?

[HailMary]

I am a piece of this pillar you speak of.

really, says who?

 

[HalleluYAH]

is this your opinion or is it shared by Christians across the ages? How did you arrive at this conclusion? What sort of process do you go through in order to arrive at the correct interpretation? Is it possible, that if I claim to be led by the spirit, but arrive at a different interpretation, that both can be correct?

if we are looking at the same thing from different sides, we could see different aspects/views of the same thing. that said, the bible does not say the 24 elders are saints… in fact it seems quite clear that the resurrection ot have is a even in the future.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Consider Hebrews chapter 12:22-24

You (believers) have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem…

The author of Hebrews is encouraging the suffering Hebrew church that when one is made alive in Jesus Christ though on earth they are part of the heavenly Jerusalem as well. That worship onearth is connected with that in heaven. It goes on…

You HAVE COME to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN whose names are written in heaven. You HAVE come to God the judge of all men. TO THE SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT, to Jesus the mediator of a NEW COVENANT…

Tell me, I assume you are of a messianic denomination? So this should come easy, who would the church of the firstborn be? Secondly, what hope would it be to the persecuted Hebrew church to say, you have come to the spirits of just men who still await judgement in hades, there’s currently nothing doin’ in heaven right now but have hope. Nonsense! The spirits of just men made perfect are the saints of God, Hebrews 11 is a list of saints, Hebrews 12 states where they are, in heaven.

 

[HailMary]

I am a piece of this pillar you speak of.

If you were the Pillar and Foundation of truth, how do you then say that our theology is not the truth? Can we not make that same claim as you? But you don’t accept our teaching, why would any accept yours (using this same reasoning)?

Think about that for a second.

 

[Bishopite]

Revelation 5:8 refers to the 24 elders who sit upon the thrones.

Revelation is speaking of those in heaven offering their prayers to the Lamb (Jesus). Remember John is “in the Spirit” which means he was seeing a hevenly vision (Rev 1:10).

Rev 5:8 “When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.”

The elders are interceding for “the prayers of holy ones” on earth.

The MOST HIGH does not need saints, angels or anyone else to aid him in hearing my prayers. HE is omniscient and omnipresent. HE hears my prayers as I speak them directly to HIM.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I take note of the fact that Hal is something of a troll. He does not really respond to anyone.

Therefore, I will simply add a couple of notes for those who are serious contributors to this thread.

The Elders seems clearly to be the 12 tribes or sons of Israel and the 12 Apostles. Their singing signifies both that saints are in heaven singing God’s praises and that worship is being sanctified in heaven.

The martyrs are in heaven pleading our cause. Since Angels are not and cannot ever be martyrs then we know that some saints are in heaven now.

The reason our non Chrisian friend does not recognize worship when he reads of it is two fold. First, he’s been conditioned by his handlers to deny any truth in Scripture so long as it is believed by the dreaded Catholics. Second, he has probably never experienced worship.

I continue to pray for all who are trapped in the clutches of heresies and heretical groups as Hal is. I was once trapped but now am free.

CDL

 

[Michael_Howard]

I take note of the fact that Hal is something of a troll. He does not really respond to anyone.

Therefore, I will simply add a couple of notes for those who are serious contributors to this thread.

The Elders seems clearly to be the 12 tribes or sons of Israel and the 12 Apostles. Their singing signifies both that saints are in heaven singing God’s praises and that worship is being sanctified in heaven.

The martyrs are in heaven pleading our cause. Since Angels are not and cannot ever be martyrs then we know that some saints are in heaven now.

The reason our non Chrisian friend does not recognize worship when he reads of it is two fold. First, he’s been conditioned by his handlers to deny any truth in Scripture so long as it is believed by the dreaded Catholics. Second, he has probably never experienced worship.

I continue to pray for all who are trapped in the clutches of heresies and heretical groups as Hal is. I was once trapped but now am free.

CDL

Hmm…this makes sense, the elders that is since Revelation 21
states that the gates in the New Jerusalem were inscribed with the names 12 tribes of Isreal and the 12 pillars with the names of the 12 Apostles (Rev 21:12-14). Good call:thumbsup:

 

[HailMary]

The Elders seems clearly to be the 12 tribes or sons of Israel and the 12 Apostles. Their singing signifies both that saints are in heaven singing God’s praises and that worship is being sanctified in heaven.

We have been studying the Book of Revelation two good interpretations I have heard about the 24 represent

The Kingdom of Priests that Christ gets (Christ, being the first born, gets the double portion, 2*12)

The Old and New Covenants (similar to what you said Gregory)

 

[rtconstant]

Have you read Jude: 9? I don’t think you have. It says nothing about Moses being translated. The Moses that spoke to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration did so with buried bones. In fact Jude 9 actually backs that up. Thanks there is no Biblical basis for a translated Moses unless of course you look to some authority other than scripture?

Also you might want to listen to your friend Michael. He is doing you a good turn by suggesting that you come clean as to your denomination. The longer you neglect to do so you credibility takes a hit. Right now you’re asking everyone here to simply accept you beliefs and interpretations without question. Yet who are you?

You are establishing a belief that runs contrary to that which has been held by the greatest Christian minds since the origins of The Church. But you do so without qualification or any authority. You say the Holy Spirit but everybody says that. This problem is further compounded by the fact that you have given over to us a novel and non-biblical doctrine of Moses not being buried. By doing this you have stepped away from the only authoritative source you’ve admitted to thus far. As such we now need to know from what authority you gained this extra-biblical belief.

You see why should I believe you when I read in the Bible:
Rev. 5:8
Rev. 8:3–4
Matt. 18:10

Why should I believe you when we have an historical record that goes the apostolic age? Why should I believe you when EVERY CHRISTIAN since at least the 300’s has recited the Nicene Creed which includes belief in the Communion of Saints. Christians like Clement of Alexandria, Orgen, St. Augustine, St. Francis, St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Thomas Aquinas and the litany goes on and on.

Why should I believe you when the The Church the institution that St. Paul said was “pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:15). Teaches that you are in error.

You are of course free to attack beliefs that Christians have held since the begining but when you do so understand you best be speaking for a serious authority when you say that the Holy Spirit showed you something that he didn’t show to the Authors of the Bible, His Church and 1700 hundred years of Christan belief.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Yahshua told us not ‘one jot or tittle’ would be removed from the OT until all was accomplished.

He said not one farthing would remain unpaid if we are to enter the kingdom.

In regard to the old covenant he said he did not abolish the law but fulfilled it.

This is why the apostles abolished circumcision, eating of unclean animals and made all things legal for the Christian.

Try sharing a ham sandwich and glass of wine with a poor man and you might come to understand the concept.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Agreed.

I do yet refuse to get tolerate men/woman purporting their own logic and attemtping to pass it off as HOLY WORD>

Read my sig, its not logic or my own word.

Neither is the interpretation of the written and spoken word by the Church Jesus left for the edification and guidance of his faithful.

If you want to know what the scriptures mean where do you go to find out?

The decendants of the apostles or those who disagree with them?

I’m sure you intelligent enough to see the validity of the arguement.

The question is are you honest enough to consider the point. I tell you your very salvation is at stake.

 

[Subrosa]

Further revelation on this matter is given us in Jude verse 9.

This verse is actually a reference to an apocryphal text - the “Assumption of Moses”, but you are correct. Good job!

Sub

 

[Subrosa]

Why pruport a teaching that would lead others to pray mary, saints or anyone other than the Father through Messiah?

Praying to saints was a very early christian practice, Mary in particular.

Here is a Marian prayer first recorded about the year 250 -

The Greek original

Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν, καταφεύγομεν, Θεοτόκε, τὰς ἡμῶν ἱκεσίας, μὴ παρίδης ἐν περιστάσει, ἀλλ’ ἐκ κινδύνων λύτρωσαι ἡμᾶς, μόνη ἁγνή, μόνη εὐλογημένη.

In English this is:

Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one.

What do you suppose these early christians based thier belief on? Could it be something besides scripture?

Subrosa

 

[guanophore]

Praying to saints was a very early christian practice, Mary in particular.

Here is a Marian prayer first recorded about the year 250 -

The Greek original

Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν, καταφεύγομεν, Θεοτόκε, τὰς ἡμῶν ἱκεσίας, μὴ παρίδης ἐν περιστάσει, ἀλλ’ ἐκ κινδύνων λύτρωσαι ἡμᾶς, μόνη ἁγνή, μόνη εὐλογημένη.

In English this is:

Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one.

What do you suppose these early christians based thier belief on? Could it be something besides scripture?

Subrosa

I think there is even an earlier prayer to Mary:

41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” Luke 1:41-45

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Hal,

I pray that what has been said has caused you to return to pray. God has some wonderful things in store for a passionate man. I pray that you will hear His gentle voice and come home to the Church. I did.

CDL

 

[mlldrl]

I wonder what the record is for being banned. Hal did it in one day.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Well, he was a troll who really didn’t respond but I had hopes that God could convert him or would convert him through our witness.

CDL

 

[Zahmir]

I ask for the intercession of the Saints for extra help. I know that they are in heaven and I know that they can hear me, not by their own angelic knowledge but through their knowledge of God who knows all things. They hear our prayers and can pray for us.

God does want us to pray to Him:
luke 11.9

But just as I ask my friend to pray for me, so too do I ask the Saints who can intercede for me purely and without ceasing.