How do the Mormons do it?

[1voice]

Quote:
The DNA of the descendants of Native Americans show that the original people migrated from Mongolia … Not from Israel as is claimed by the LDS Church on the plaque near the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY.

I have no idea why you have quoted a plaque, nor why the blanket statement as though you know the ancestry of every tribal group of the Americas.

Mitochondrial DNA is one of the principle tools for tracing human history. Mothers pass it down to offspring almost intact—

… mitochondrial DNA supports the view that the principal ancestors of Native Americans were people from eastern Asia.

… the Introduction to the Book of Mormon claims that “the Lamanites . . . are the principal ancestors of the American Indians,”

---

LDS scientist Thomas W. Murphy, chair of the Department of Anthropology at Edmonds Community College in Washington, wrote:

Now that quantitative scientific methods can indeed test for an Israelite genetic presence in ancient America, we learn instead that virtually all Native Americans can trace their lineages to the Asian migrations between 7,000 and 50,000 years ago. While molecular anthropologists have the technological capability to identify descendants of ancient Hebrews, no traces of such DNA markers have appeared in Central America or elsewhere among Native Americans. . . .

 

[h2oplyer7]

It is so hard to understand Mormon apologists since they seem so intelligent, yet don’t realize they are creating a defense of a book similar to the Lord of the Rings.

Though the mythology of the Lord the Rings is far larger in scope, more interesting, better written and impressive (Tolkien actually did create his own language) than the Book of Mormon, I think the Book of Mormon would still be a best seller today if he would have packaged it as a myth about Jesus, which it so obviously is. Just imagine how much more “persuasive” the Book of Mormon would have been if Joseph Smith was capable of the feats of JRR Tolkein and actually put “Reformed” Egyptian down on paper. Better yet, just think if Tolkien wanted to invent his own religion and actually told people that his book was real. I think there would be tons of people who would believe it because it is just too impressive not to. I think too many Mormons suffer from this.

 

[pablope]

1voice:
The Jaredites were promised that they would become the greatest nation on Earth …

“And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me” (Ether 1:43)

“and never could be a people more blessed than were they, and more prospered by the hand of the Lord” (Ether 10:28).

Hmmmm…this sounds like God’s words to Abraham and his descendents, isn’t it?

 

[ParkerD]

1voice:

The Jaredites were promised that they would become the greatest nation on Earth …

1 Voice,

The words “great nation” do not mean “greatest nation on earth”.

The words “none greater…upon all the face of the earth” do not mean “greatest nation on earth”. Those words mean “none greater”, which is quite a bit different than “greatest”.

“Greatest” would mean “unsurpassed” or “largest” or “most dominant” or “most superior” or “most extensive” or “most blessed” or “most achieved” or “most advanced” or many other potential meanings.

“None greater” would mean there could and would be expected to be other nations that were comparatively just as “great”.

The time period for that would be about 800-700 BC, somewhere in the Americas, probably North America or Central America/Mexico.

The earthquakes and volcanic and hurricane activity in the Americas near the time of the Savior’s crucifixion, changed the “whole face of the land” and buried much of the existing ruins and bones and buildings, “deep in the earth.”

 

[pablope]

1Voice,

Since you don’t believe Abraham went to Egypt and taught the Egyptians, then we come from a far different perspective about that papyrus. I look at it as what happens when people take truth (or as much truth as they wanted to learn) and make it into what satisfies their own whims. The original would have been a far different meaning, and the “funerary” papyrus wasn’t the papyrus that contained the Book of Abraham, anyway.

Parker…i recall we went through this extensively in a previous thread…and to this date, you have not explained how Abraham, an unschooled shepherd, ever teach the Egyptians astrology, if I recall, aside from claiming that God taught Abraham directly astrology.

 

[1voice]

1 Voice,
There are Biblical translations and texts from Biblical times that have been destroyed, totally and completely. There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not found anywhere in the world. Just because the Lamanites were successful in destroying all evidence of the Nephite writings and culture, does not mean those did not exist.

---

Quote 1voice:
Archeology tells the truth and nothing but the truth … Civilizations have been destroying each other throughout history … Yet there is always proof that they were there.
ParkerD;8339870:

Anyone doing recent reading about archaeological discoveries know that new discoveries occur, sometimes beneath a “dig” that had already been examined. This should not be news.

---

quote 1voice:
Given the information that I have posted showing that there is no physical/ scientific or historic evidence to support anything written in the Book of Mormon … and the fact that science( affirmed by LDS scientists) attests to the fact that the Book of Mormon clearly does not line up with proven facts about genealogy… as well as the fact that the ancient writings (papyrus) … were written thousands of years after Abraham lived (as confirmed by LSD scientists) … and that Joseph Smith materially changed and completely misinterpreted the Egyptian drawings (as confirmed by LDS scientists)

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD;8339870:

1 Voice,
There are Biblical translations and texts from Biblical times that have been destroyed, totally and completely. There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not found anywhere in the world. Just because the Lamanites were successful in destroying all evidence of the Nephite writings and culture, does not mean those did not exist.

---

Quote 1voice:
Archeology tells the truth and nothing but the truth … Civilizations have been destroying each other throughout history … Yet there is always proof that they were there.
ParkerD;8339870:

Anyone doing recent reading about archaeological discoveries know that new discoveries occur, sometimes beneath a “dig” that had already been examined. This should not be news.

---

quote 1voice:
Given the information that I have posted showing that there is no physical/ scientific or historic evidence to support anything written in the Book of Mormon … and the fact that science( affirmed by LDS scientists) attests to the fact that the Book of Mormon clearly does not line up with proven facts about genealogy… as well as the fact that the ancient writings (papyrus) … were written thousands of years after Abraham lived (as confirmed by LSD scientists) … and that Joseph Smith materially changed and completely misinterpreted the Egyptian drawings (as confirmed by LDS scientists)

1 Voice,

For you, that last sentence is certainly a true statement; thus, when your time of entering the spirit world comes, if you have the chance (perhaps, perhaps not, since who knows if multiple generations mix together there or some move on), then maybe you can ask him about it, or ask some of your relatives who may have some knowledge about it from him or from the other way that kind of knowledge would come, and can tell you about it. Otherwise, you have the self-assurance that the knowledge would have to be spiritually received, and is deliberately hidden so that no physical proof will stand by itself as adequate for the question.

 

[NewSeeker]

. Otherwise, you have the self-assurance that the knowledge would have to be spiritually received, and is deliberately hidden so that no physical proof will stand by itself as adequate for the question.

I suppose, then, that everyone affiliated with F.A.R.M.S. needs to clean out their desks and close up shop. They’re wasting tithe-payer money searching for that physical proof. Will you give Daniel Peterson a call and break the news or shall I?

 

[aquabatix]

1 Voice,

There are Biblical translations and texts from Biblical times that have been destroyed, totally and completely. There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not found anywhere in the world. Just because the Lamanites were successful in destroying all evidence of the Nephite writings and culture, does not mean those did not exist.

Anyone doing recent reading about archaeological discoveries know that new discoveries occur, sometimes beneath a “dig” that had already been examined. This should not be news.

The Jaredites were promised that they would become the greatest nation on Earth …

 

[Telstar]

1 Voice,

There are Biblical translations and texts from Biblical times that have been destroyed, totally and completely. There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not found anywhere in the world. Just because the Lamanites were successful in destroying all evidence of the Nephite writings and culture, does not mean those did not exist.

Anyone doing recent reading about archaeological discoveries know that new discoveries occur, sometimes beneath a “dig” that had already been examined. This should not be news.

I love the selecting of which parts to answer. No answer to the donkeys, cattle, bees, etc that were pointed out as non-existent until explorers arrived centuries later?

I also find it interesting that they supposedly brought pigs to America? Why in God’s name would Jews ever bring pigs, anywhere? They didn’t eat pork, at all. Pigs were considered to be ‘unclean’ by the Jews, so why would they feel the need to take them on a long nasty voyage across the ocean? They hated the idea of having them anywhere near them, since they were forbidden to eat them! There would be no other purpose for them to keep them, either. They certainly wouldn’t use their skins for anything. If they needed leather, they would have had the cattle and other animals that made better leather than any pig would. Did I mention that Jews considered pigs to be *unclean? *** They would never even wear anything made of pigskin!

Another thing that makes absolutely no sense to me, is the point you mentioned. Since the entire civilization “disappeared” in the end, what would have happened to* all* of their animals that should have kept on breeding in the wild? Cattle, horses, donkeys? As a result, they should have been all over North and/or South America, long after all of those people were gone. But, Mormons don’t seem to have a problem with the complete lack of logic in any of those facts, either. Logic is certainly not their strong point, unless it’s circular. They definitely excel at circular logic. It’s the only thing that seems to make any sense to them. So they just accept it, because JS said it was true, and he was a great ‘prophet’.

But, God is never irrational, or illogical. Everything He does has to serve some kind of a real purpose. That’s what makes this whole story so ridiculous. It seems to serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever to God. It has none of the true earmarks of His handiwork in it. If God did such a wonderful thing to bring all of those people on this amazing voyage, why would He allow a few idiots to destroy all of His work? How does that glorify God, in the least? If anything, it just makes Him look like a fool to go through all that trouble… for nothing.

 

[ParkerD]

I suppose, then, that everyone affiliated with F.A.R.M.S. needs to clean out their desks and close up shop. They’re wasting tithe-payer money searching for that physical proof. Will you give Daniel Peterson a call and break the news or shall I?

New Seeker,

They don’t use tithe-payer money, nor is it a waste of time for them to explain that Latter-day Saint beliefs have a rationale that is not so unbelievable as made out to be–as, for example, the post that follows.

 

[ParkerD]

1 Voice,

There are Biblical translations and texts from Biblical times that have been destroyed, totally and completely. There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not found anywhere in the world. Just because the Lamanites were successful in destroying all evidence of the Nephite writings and culture, does not mean those did not exist.

Anyone doing recent reading about archaeological discoveries know that new discoveries occur, sometimes beneath a “dig” that had already been examined. This should not be news.

I love the selecting of which parts to answer. No answer to the donkeys, cattle, bees, etc that were pointed out as non-existent until explorers arrived centuries later?

Aquabatix,

I realized that it would take a longer explanation than I had time to get into, plus the word “donkey” or “mule” doesn’t appear in the Book of Mormon, nor the word “pig”.

The word “cattle” from 1828 means any of various kinds of animals.

The verse that talks of “cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats,…” is Ether 9:18; verse 19 adds “horses, and asses, and elephants…” See also 1 Nephi 18:25, where it adds “wild goats”.

If one researches the genus and family related to those animals, with the exception of “(beast of burden with long ears)” one finds a related species that would logically be the animal being described which lived in the Americas anciently. For example, goats are related to antelope, sheep to either alpacas or llamas or the guanaco, elephants to the ancient mammoth, oxen to bison, swine to the peccary, (pigs weren’t brought on the vessels, by the way–nor were bees other than when the Jaredites were still in the Old World). (I don’t know what would match up with “(beast of burden with long ears)”, unless it was an alpaca or llama or guanaco that would be the matching animal.)

 

[zaffiroborant]

So much hard work in this thread, always explaining, redefining, twisting, all to maintain what a person wants to believe, what they’ve been taught is true. Very sad.

 

[NewSeeker]

New Seeker,

They don’t use tithe-payer money, nor is it a waste of time for them to explain that Latter-day Saint beliefs have a rationale that is not so unbelievable as made out to be–as, for example, the post that follows.

F.A.R.M.S. and the Maxwell Institute are housed at BYU. BYU profs are on staff. Tithes definitely help to finance their search for physical evidences in support of the BoM, which by your reasoning is a waste of time, as 1) Lamanites and natural disasters have destroyed the evidence and 2) the sole legitimate means for determining the truth of the BoM are spiritual. Either empirical evidence matters to establishing the validity of the BoM or it does not. If it doesn’t, F.A.R.M.S. et all need to close up shop. If it does, then where’s the evidence? As has been pointed out many times, there is none. So, you’re back to sole reliance on your testimony and spiritual means for verifying the validity of the BoM. Since the only evidence any Mormon has is purely subjective and spiritual (the physical evidence was all destroyed), then the search for Book of Mormon lands needs to end. Someone needs to break the news to Brother Peterson. He’s still running around talking like there’s evidence to be found - when there isn’t.

 

[ParkerD]

…

“The truth is that, somewhere along the path of our growth, we separated from the interconnected aspects of our being and began to focus instead on becoming separate from one another. In the process, we either created, or were indoctrinated with, sets of beliefs, assumptions, and world views that we thereafter looked upon as constituting the essential “me.”
We live life from an ego-directed place, so it’s “all about me.”
That’s why, to feel secure as “me”, our reactions are to compete and put the other down so the fear of losing “me” or being threatened can be taken away. That’s why our relationships are based on a continual need to be right: being right means that I can be “me” in a world where not being “me” is a threatening proposition.
If you are able to let go of your need to be right, you will be able to live in a place that fosters inner peace, well-being, harmony and connectivity: a place from where you can create more conscious, honest and healthier relationships.
So, as you move through your day, will you take the time to ask yourself about your motivations for engaging in all those ‘win-lose’ conversations? Do you need to ‘win’ merely for selfish, manipulative or fearful reasons? What might happen if you sometimes let go of that constant need to be right?” By Peter Vojda

Catholic-RCIA,

I noticed this quote you used. I like the idea of “win-win” conversations. Hopefully, that means conversations involve a two-way street and that it isn’t talking about a one-way street. If truly a two-way street, and if really being applied to all people, then I would expect that if this is taught to Catholics then there would be no comments that are founded in trying to make people fear, and no comments about “Peter is the rock” or comments about “the church couldn’t fail or that makes Jesus a failure” since those set up a monopoly power position and a one-way street for beliefs and attitudes about the religious beliefs of “self” as compared with “others”, thus undermining that statement you quoted and undermining free will choice for people, especially children.

By the way, I spend several days a year in Logan with my wife’s family (she grew up there, a beautiful place then and now), and have cousins there as well, plus my parents were married in the Logan temple–a very busy temple each time I have attended it.

Peace to you.

 

[ParkerD]

F.A.R.M.S. and the Maxwell Institute are housed at BYU…

Mission statement:

Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship Mission Statement

By furthering religious scholarship through
the study of scripture and other texts,
Brigham Young University’s
Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship
seeks to deepen understanding and nurture
discipleship among Latter-day Saints
while promoting mutual respect and goodwill
among people of all faiths.

Source:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

Some links to substantive articles about DNA and the Book of Mormon peoples:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display/topical.php?cat_id=488

I wish you the best, New Seeker, and hope your family is well and that your wife, whom I admire tremendously, has deep peace and joy through her inner strength.

 

[NewSeeker]

Mission statement:

Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship Mission Statement

By furthering religious scholarship through
the study of scripture and other texts,
Brigham Young University’s
Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship
seeks to deepen understanding and nurture
discipleship among Latter-day Saints
while promoting mutual respect and goodwill
among people of all faiths.

Source:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

Some links to substantive articles about DNA and the Book of Mormon peoples:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display/topical.php?cat_id=488

I wish you the best, New Seeker, and hope your family is well and that your wife, whom I admire tremendously, has deep peace and joy through her inner strength.

The tithe-payer funded Maxwell Institute focuses on more than DNA. As you know, the Maxwell Institute publishes the FARMS Review. FARMS staff, as everyone familiar with the organization knows, loves to search for and document physical evidences of Nephite civilization. The Maxwell Institute also publishes the Journal of the Book of Mormon and Other Restoration Scripture. From the Maxwell Institute website:

“The Journal of the Book of Mormon and Other Restoration Scripture is a peer-reviewed journal dedicated to promoting our understanding of the history, meaning, and significance of the scriptures revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Contributions dealing with all aspects of these texts and their contents are invited, including textual, historical, cultural, archaeological, and philological studies. Submissions must be consistent with a faithful Latter-day Saint perspective, and make a significant contribution to our understanding, to be considered for publication.” [bold emphasis mine]

The Maxwell Institute and FARMS are tithing-supported and search for historical and archeological evidences of BoM peoples. My earlier point stands. If all of that evidence was destroyed (as you’ve asserted), then those funds are being wasted. Of course, there never were any Nephites in the first place, so the waste of funds is doubly evident.

Thanks for the kind wishes. I agree - my wife is worthy of admiration (well, except for her desire that I keep my Catholic faith a secret from everyone, our sons and Mormon friends), though I don’t know how anyone could glean much info about her based on the few things I’ve mentioned here. I wish you and your family peace and joy through the blessings of Christ. Those are available to you in their fulness in the Catholic faith. One day maybe you’ll join us!

 

[SteveVH]

Catholic-RCIA,

I noticed this quote you used. I like the idea of “win-win” conversations. Hopefully, that means conversations involve a two-way street and that it isn’t talking about a one-way street. If truly a two-way street, and if really being applied to all people, then I would expect that if this is taught to Catholics then there would be no comments that are founded in trying to make people fear, and no comments about “Peter is the rock” or comments about “the church couldn’t fail or that makes Jesus a failure” since those set up a monopoly power position and a one-way street for beliefs and attitudes about the religious beliefs of “self” as compared with “others”, thus undermining that statement you quoted and undermining free will choice for people, especially children.

By the way, I spend several days a year in Logan with my wife’s family (she grew up there, a beautiful place then and now), and have cousins there as well, plus my parents were married in the Logan temple–a very busy temple each time I have attended it.

Peace to you.

Parker, do you believe that one should ignore or compromise truth so that we can participate in a group hug? Why should we not claim that “Peter is the rock” (Jesus said he was) or believe the promise of Christ that his Church will not fail? Will you back off on the claim that Joseph Smith is a prophet or ever say that there was no need for a restoration? C’mon. The Church and its members have an obligation to defend the truth hande down to it, not to compromise or deny that truth so others might feel better about believing a falsehood.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So much hard work in this thread, always explaining, redefining, twisting, all to maintain what a person wants to believe, what they’ve been taught is true. Very sad.

I agree. The OPs question, “How do the Mormons do it?”, is answered very well by reading what the Mormons have written in this thread.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Take your pick of any of the indigenous tribal groups of North and South America. There is indeed evidence of their existence.

Yes, a phrase one sometimes hears is “the inconvenient Messiah”. There is a filtering process, but the important thing is people ultimately are blessed with what they desire, want, and have faith to receive, and thus God gives them what they deep-down want.

A teaching the Savior used that was an apt one for your questions is contained in Luke 7:35.

Sorry, Parker, I haven’t been able to post for a couple of days. Would you please address my question as to why God would want all evidence of the Nephites destroyed so that we would have to rely on faith only, and yet not destroy the ample evidence of the ancient Jewish culture in the holy land?

Thanks.