How do the Mormons do it?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Captain_America
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It seems to me that Mormons are the fat kid on the playground over here in non-catholic religions. But you can ask the same question about Catholics, Muslims, or any religion, really. Every religion has a contradiction that people outside of the religion see as obvious, but that is explained away by apologist within the religion. The same thing that keeps you and me Catholic keeps other people Mormon. Nothing unique about mormonism.
 
No need to wear yourself out looking for educational institutions that have honor codes. I’m a graduate of the University of Cincinnati. They have one. Most of my adult life I lived in Charlotte, NC. I think that the greater “cognitive dissonance” that is attempting to be resoved here is that which comes about when the reality is faced that Mormons aren’t nearly the idiots many would like to portray them as being.
(Stan Albrecht, Ph.D. in sociology from Washington State University and Tim Heaton, Ph.D
"When, exactly, did Richard Bushman lose his credibility as a historian? Was it prior to his winning the Bancroft Prize
And just how is it, anyway, that all these dopey non-scholars have conned the smart guys at Oxford University Press, Yale University Press, Columbia University Press, Alfred Knopf, and so many other first-rate publishing houses into printing their tripe about Mormonism?
Everybody lol’s - it’s all just too funny. But interestingly, nobody takes on the arguments of current LDS scholarship.
think that the greater “cognitive dissonance” that is attempting to be resoved here is that which comes about when the reality is faced that Mormons aren’t nearly the idiots many would like to portray them as being.
We have Muslim Scholars, Jewish Scholars, Hindu Scholars and many different types of Scholars. I muse at the notion that Scholarship proves much of anything except that they write what they believe as is true of most Scholarship. It is said that this cognitive dissonance of what can be studied and what can be believed are not necessarily concentric.

What I see are lots of words without addressing the particulars that are being avoided.

The LDS teach that Jesus and Satan have a relationship that creates cognitive dissonance. The LDS site has more. This is some.

Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah. On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)
What Scholarship do we have to support this notion.
If you are not familiar with NLP basics as to tenets of communication, we all communicate and receive with distortion, generalization and deletion. Your responses are deleting, generalizing and distorting.

I have yet to see you answer any questions asked.
 
. . . how do Mormons keep together all these disparate, anti-factual aspects of their faith? I mean the notions about American geography, etc., long disproved by archaeology? And the big Race War in History concept?

I’m not knocking Mormons. I just see the potential for a great deal of internal cognitive dissonance, and wonder how it’s all reconciled.
Many fundagelicals ask the same thing about Catholics. That said, I’d rather live next door to Mormons than most so-called self-proclaimed Christians.
 
I don’t know about anyone else here but I am not of this opinion. I do admit that when I first started looking at Mormon apologetics, I thought it was mostly damage control. I don’t think that way anymore. I don’t, in the end, believe that Mormon scholars are successful in establishing the (likely) historicity of the Book of Mormon but I have come to appreciate that many, like Sorenson, have made serious, scholarly efforts to do so.
Are you saying that Mormon scholars will likely succeed in establishing the hisoricity of the Book of Mormon or that it will be established that the Book of Mormon is historical?
 
Many fundagelicals ask the same thing about Catholics. That said, I’d rather live next door to Mormons than most so-called self-proclaimed Christians.
This is neigborly and in my opinion avoids the elephant in the room.
 
. . . how do Mormons keep together all these disparate, anti-factual aspects of their faith? I mean the notions about American geography, etc., long disproved by archaeology? And the big Race War in History concept?

I’m not knocking Mormons. I just see the potential for a great deal of internal cognitive dissonance, and wonder how it’s all reconciled.
After reading all the posts on this thread here is how mormons hold it together. They are neigborly. They talk in generalities and not in particulars thus avoiding any discussion or conflict over contrary beliefs. They keep their conversations ethereal and abstract.

I sense that there is some sort of “sacred cow” mentality in approaching Mormons, secrets, lets not talk about that. This is in distinction to addressing Protestants as to:

Sola Fide
Sola Scriptura
Church Authority
Extrinsic Justification

I, others have no problem pointing out these beliefs and getting down to basics. These posts tell me that Mormons do not discuss their beliefs, others do not ask, and I find this dialogue without merit for me. In NLP jargon, you can’t get Mormons to chunk down to the point where you can discern what it is they believe and why. There is constant deflection. My University degrees have little to do with any of this discussion and pointing out that you have one is nothing more than a distraction. That is how Mormons hold it together.:whacky::banghead::sleep:
 
Are you saying that Mormon scholars will likely succeed in establishing the hisoricity of the Book of Mormon or that it will be established that the Book of Mormon is historical?
No and no. While your average Mormon might rely exclusively on their testimony, I am saying that Mormon scholars, such as Mormon archeologists, historians, etc, produce genuine scholarly defenses of the Book of Mormon. However, these defenses come in the form of showing that archeology does not conclusively rule out the possibility of a Book of Mormon civilization existing in a limited geographical area of the New World and that the Book of Mormon, possibly, could be of ancient origins. Note, I do not think they succeed in demonstrating that the Book of Mormon is historical or is a genuine ancient document. It is one thing to say that a scholar has produced a legitimate work of scholarship, and is thus worthy of careful consideration and response, and quite another to say that the same scholar has actually succeeded in proving his case. I am stating the former.
 
There’s another point in how Mormons do it…everything is possible in Mormonism. The same possibility arguments could be given for aliens overseeing the building of the pyramids in Egypt.
 
No need to wear yourself out looking for educational institutions that have honor codes. I’m a graduate of the University of Cincinnati. They have one. Most of my adult life I lived in Charlotte, NC. I know from personal experience that Charlotte Catholic High School has a very strict one (do you mock them, too, Z?). Just north of Charlotte is Davidson College, a Presbyterian school where I taught part-time. I know they have one. Princeton? Got one. Vanderbilt? Yup. Stanford? Uh-huh. Westpoint? Better believe it! (I’d better stop listing the schools having honor codes before my fingers cramp-up). I even feel certain that at some time in its past, America’s oldest Catholic university had an honor code, at least when it was founded by Archbishop John Carroll and run by the Jesuits. Unfortunately, it seems that Georgetown University lately has become more interested in trying to put its Catholic identity behind it, so I don’t know. And maybe I’m totally missing your point. Perhaps you think its OK to have an honor code - just don’t enforce it.

I don’t know how many BYU students comprised the sample of Mormons used in the study of how higher education affects religious commitment. The co-authors of the study are both professionally trained sociologists (Stan Albrecht, Ph.D. in sociology from Washington State University and Tim Heaton, Ph.D in sociology from Harvard), so I would assume their sample would be a statistically fair cross-section so as not to skew their results. Certainly a very many Mormons attend institutions of higher learning other than BYU. The paper’s title is “Secularization, Higher Education, and Religiosity, Latter-Day Saint Social Life, Social Research on the LDS Church and its Members” (Provo, Utah: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1998). At the time of its publication, Albrecht was on the faculty at the University of Florida and so wasn’t even residing in Utah.

Then here comes the dog pile from everybody else. Mormons don’t have any scholars, just spinmeisters (we put “scholars” in quotes relative to Mormons so as to be clear that they really don’t have any) . Bushman gets a pat on the head, but certainly he’s no real scholar or historian, which causes me to wonder the same thing as another Mormon “non-scholar” who asked “When, exactly, did Richard Bushman lose his credibility as a historian? Was it prior to his winning the Bancroft Prize? Did it occur while he held his endowed chair in American history at Columbia University? Was it after his retirement, during his stint as a research fellow at Princeton? Or has it occurred only recently, after Columbia University Press published a collection of his LDS-related essays entitled Believing History?”.

And just how is it, anyway, that all these dopey non-scholars have conned the smart guys at Oxford University Press, Yale University Press, Columbia University Press, Alfred Knopf, and so many other first-rate publishing houses into printing their tripe about Mormonism? To me, many of you are making precisely the point that Owen/Mosser argue in their paper to the Evangelical community.

Everybody lol’s - it’s all just too funny. But interestingly, nobody takes on the arguments of current LDS scholarship. I only see bald assertions that no such scholarship exists. A common legal disclaimer at the end of a paper is seen as proof that its content is bogus. Really? Maybe we need a thread on what a legal disclaimer is. And if you don’t know, wouldn’t you at least wonder why the very institute that publishes and distributes the work hasn’t pulled it? Or why the leaders of the church haven’t disavowed it?

I think that the greater “cognitive dissonance” that is attempting to be resoved here is that which comes about when the reality is faced that Mormons aren’t nearly the idiots many would like to portray them as being.
I’m curious how many schools have honor codes that require church attendance and a signoff by your priest, pastor or bishop? How many schools have honor codes that require them to follow religious practices that are not their own but those of the university? How many schools have an honor code that forbids them from leaving the religion of the university? If there are any I’d be just as curious about how it affects future religious practice.
 
No and no. While your average Mormon might rely exclusively on their testimony, I am saying that Mormon scholars, such as Mormon archeologists, historians, etc, produce genuine scholarly defenses of the Book of Mormon. However, these defenses come in the form of showing that archeology does not conclusively rule out the possibility of a Book of Mormon civilization existing in a limited geographical area of the New World and that the Book of Mormon, possibly, could be of ancient origins. Note, I do not think they succeed in demonstrating that the Book of Mormon is historical or is a genuine ancient document. It is one thing to say that a scholar has produced a legitimate work of scholarship, and is thus worthy of careful consideration and response, and quite another to say that the same scholar has actually succeeded in proving his case. I am stating the former.
All I can say is that if the Mormon understanding of the history of the Catholic Church is any indication of its scholarship concerning its own Church, then I would not lend it a lot of credibility.
 
All I can say is that if the Mormon understanding of the history of the Catholic Church is any indication of its scholarship concerning its own Church, then I would not lend it a lot of credibility.
I would imagine a Mormon archeologist, writing on the subject of archeology and the Book of Mormon, would carry more credibility than a Mormon archeologist writing on the subject of the Catholic Church. I could be wrong. 🤷
 
Then here comes the dog pile from everybody else. Mormons don’t have any scholars, just spinmeisters (we put “scholars” in quotes relative to Mormons so as to be clear that they really don’t have any) . Bushman gets a pat on the head, but certainly he’s no real scholar or historian, which causes me to wonder the same thing as another Mormon “non-scholar” who asked “When, exactly, did Richard Bushman lose his credibility as a historian? Was it prior to his winning the Bancroft Prize? Did it occur while he held his endowed chair in American history at Columbia University? Was it after his retirement, during his stint as a research fellow at Princeton? Or has it occurred only recently, after Columbia University Press published a collection of his LDS-related essays entitled Believing History?”.

And just how is it, anyway, that all these dopey non-scholars have conned the smart guys at Oxford University Press, Yale University Press, Columbia University Press, Alfred Knopf, and so many other first-rate publishing houses into printing their tripe about Mormonism? To me, many of you are making precisely the point that Owen/Mosser argue in their paper to the Evangelical community.

Everybody lol’s - it’s all just too funny. But interestingly, nobody takes on the arguments of current LDS scholarship. I only see bald assertions that no such scholarship exists. A common legal disclaimer at the end of a paper is seen as proof that its content is bogus. Really? Maybe we need a thread on what a legal disclaimer is. And if you don’t know, wouldn’t you at least wonder why the very institute that publishes and distributes the work hasn’t pulled it? Or why the leaders of the church haven’t disavowed it?

I think that the greater “cognitive dissonance” that is attempting to be resoved here is that which comes about when the reality is faced that Mormons aren’t nearly the idiots many would like to portray them as being.
Whoa. Wait a minute. My post was in response to this:
For said “competent treatment” see this link:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=2&num=1&id=25
Why would you expect William J. Hamblin’s peers (or anyone else for that matter) to take him seriously? The title suggests he’s drawn his conclusion before doing the research, which is faulty methodology. Is Mr. Hamblin a geographer or archaeologist? No, he’s a Mormon apologist and associate professor of history at BYU. He’s also known for being a little testy.

As for the disclaimer, you must have added your link without actually looking at it yourself. The disclaimer is directly under the title, not at the end of a paper as you suggest. The reason I find it amusing is that it seems to offer wiggle room should the LDS Church decide at some later date that they disagree with Mr. Hamblin. I’ve seen the LDS distance themselves from prominent LDS authors before. It also stands is stark contrast to what you’d see from a Catholic scholarly paper: an imprimatur. 🙂

Peace
 
I would imagine a Mormon archeologist, writing on the subject of archeology and the Book of Mormon, would carry more credibility than a Mormon archeologist writing on the subject of the Catholic Church. I could be wrong. 🤷
When speaking of a science, such as archeology or geography, what does one’s religious affiliation have to do with anything, if, in fact, that scientist is honest in the practice of his trade? My point was that there are mountains of historical evidence concerning the history of the Catholic Church, yet the Mormons have come up with their own unique history in order to support the basic premise of their existence; the “Great Apostasy”. I won’t go into a big deal on this subject, but it is based either on great ignorance of history or outright deception. If this is the way they treat a well documented subject, why would anyone trust what they have to say about a purported ancient civilization for which no evidence exists?
 
When speaking of a science, such as archeology or geography, what does one’s religious affiliation have to do with anything, if, in fact, that scientist is honest in the practice of his trade? My point was that there are mountains of historical evidence concerning the history of the Catholic Church, yet the Mormons have come up with their own unique history in order to support the basic premise of their existence; the “Great Apostasy”. I won’t go into a big deal on this subject, but it is based either on great ignorance of history or outright deception. If this is the way they treat a well documented subject, why would anyone trust what they have to say about a purported ancient civilization for which no evidence exists?
I don’t see why the focus on archeology is so critical when the source text is so much in doubt. To me it’s like arguing over the archeology of “Ben Hur”. Lew Wallace could have gotten everything perfect, but the book is still a novel.
 
I don’t see why the focus on archeology is so critical when the source text is so much in doubt. To me it’s like arguing over the archeology of “Ben Hur”. Lew Wallace could have gotten everything perfect, but the book is still a novel.
I couldn’t agree more. 👍
 
When speaking of a science, such as archeology or geography, what does one’s religious affiliation have to do with anything, if, in fact, that scientist is honest in the practice of his trade?
This is an interesting question. Many archeologists now contend that there is no archeological evidence for the patriarchs, the enslavement in Egypt, the Exodus, the conquest of the Promised Land, and the United Monarchy. What are we, as Catholics, to make of this? Kenneth Kitchen comes to mind as a Christian archeologist who defends the historicity of these events, despite a large number (a consensus?) saying otherwise. It seems rather clear a big part of his motivation for doing so is his faith in the Bible. I wouldn’t accuse Kitchen and others like him of being dishonest in their trade for doing so. The same, I believe, with a Mormon archeologist defending the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
My point was that there are mountains of historical evidence concerning the history of the Catholic Church, yet the Mormons have come up with their own unique history in order to support the basic premise of their existence; the “Great Apostasy”. I won’t go into a big deal on this subject, but it is based either on great ignorance of history or outright deception. If this is the way they treat a well documented subject, why would anyone trust what they have to say about a purported ancient civilization for which no evidence exists?
I’m not saying that Mormons have great arguments for their position, only that they can and do put together scholarly attempts at defending their position and that those attempts should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, not dismissed out of hand because we think their whole religion is silly. Critics of Christianity take this position all the time, refusing to even consider the arguments of Christian philosophers, scientists, and other scholars because they consider us so obviously wrong that they need not even bother. We should not adopt this position when it comes to other religions.
 
The same way that Catholics believe what we believe despite alleged evidences against our beliefs
 
This is an interesting question. Many archeologists now contend that there is no archeological evidence for the patriarchs, the enslavement in Egypt, the Exodus, the conquest of the Promised Land, and the United Monarchy. What are we, as Catholics, to make of this? Kenneth Kitchen comes to mind as a Christian archeologist who defends the historicity of these events, despite a large number (a consensus?) saying otherwise. It seems rather clear a big part of his motivation for doing so is his faith in the Bible. I wouldn’t accuse Kitchen and others like him of being dishonest in their trade for doing so. The same, I believe, with a Mormon archeologist defending the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

I’m not saying that Mormons have great arguments for their position, only that they can and do put together scholarly attempts at defending their position and that those attempts should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, not dismissed out of hand because we think their whole religion is silly. Critics of Christianity take this position all the time, refusing to even consider the arguments of Christian philosophers, scientists, and other scholars because they consider us so obviously wrong that they need not even bother. We should not adopt this position when it comes to other religions.
Well, you are quite right, and I will have to admit that I fall into this category. I could care less about reading an in-depth study of the Nephites and Laminites because I already believe it is nothing but a fairy tale and would rather spend the time concentrating other things. But archeology is not the only evidence we have to determine truth in these areas. Something should at least be considered plausible if one is going to decide to look into it further. But your point is well taken.
 
Christistheway,

While there is no perfect evidence to the things you listed, there is a LOT of other archeological evidence to support Old Testament narratives. One does not have to have 100% of the evidence to have enough evidence.

But, even without ALL the evidence, we can read the Bible and visit many of the places the Bible mentions.

Other than when Lehi et al were in Jerusalem, you cannot find a single place mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
 
The same way that Catholics believe what we believe despite alleged evidences against our beliefs
Welcome to the forum, Texan. As you are very new here I would urge you to read through the Mormon threads on this forum and then see if you can still say this. I maintain that Catholic beliefs can be supported through reason as well as faith. This cannot be said about the Mormon faith, IMO.

Anyway, glad you are here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top