How do the Mormons do it?

[CopticChristian]

His human nature was from Mary. That does not mean he was not male. He was perfectly capable of generating his own Y chromosome. He was fully human, he would have the mix of chromosomes he needed.

He is, after all, GOD.

He was fully human. He was fully divine.

Mary gave him an X Chromosome and the question is where did he get his Y chromosome. I looked into this one time and found Augustine commenting on it. I do not have the reference handy but to paraphrase what I recall…Sometimes there are mysteries that merit contemplation and provide insight and sometimes there are mysteries that do not, it would be better to contemplate other mysteries than to spend time on this one…or something like that.

Mystery

 

[RebeccaJ]

Miriam,

Thanks. So is this saying that there was no male genetic contribution within Jesus’ genes–that all His genes came from His mother?

The conception of Jesus Christ was a miracle ParkerD, not a scientific method that can be repeated in a petri dish.

We accept what God has Revealed about Himself, knowing full well that we are incapable of understanding the nature of God. The Word of God became Man and dwelt among us. This is a literal teaching of the Catholic Church.

This is one of today’s Bible readings, that every Catholic in the world who went to mass, heard:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord
or who has been his counselor?
Or who has given the Lord anything
that he may be repaid?
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be glory forever. Amen.

usccb.org/bible/readings/082111.cfm

 

[catholic-rcia]

The conception of Jesus Christ was a miracle ParkerD, not a scientific method that can be repeated in a petri dish.

We accept what God has Revealed about Himself, knowing full well that we are incapable of understanding the nature of God. The Word of God became Man and dwelt among us. This is a literal teaching of the Catholic Church.

This is one of today’s Bible readings, that every Catholic in the world who went to mass, heard:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord
or who has been his counselor?
Or who has given the Lord anything
that he may be repaid?
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be glory forever. Amen.

usccb.org/bible/readings/082111.cfm

I thought about Parker during this reading. In a roundabout way Parker was at Mass today.

I get a bit hurt when I hear of miracles on the news. The kind of miracle that can be easily explained. It’s like throwing the word love around, like I love this ice cream. When I think of the word miracle I think of Jesus. When I hear the word love I think of Jesus.

His birth was a real authentic miracle. It should not be understood, rather accepted on faith. What is understood is who He is and why He came to earth.
I demand this kind of miracle in my faith life. (The Virgin Birth)
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[ParkerD]

His human nature was from Mary. That does not mean he was not male. He was perfectly capable of generating his own Y chromosome. He was fully human, he would have the mix of chromosomes he needed.

He is, after all, GOD.

Miriam,

What I’m trying to understand is not whether Jesus Christ is believed to be “God”, but whether He is believed by Catholics to be the Son of God, or if He is believed to have “generated his own Y chromosome”. (Wouldn’t that make Him the Son of Himself?)

To others who made comments, and to SteveVH,

This kind of question is pertinent to the kind of comment SteveVH made about my beliefs being “unusual” or whatever word he used, and is coming because of Rebecca’s comment that might as well be taken to its logical conclusion as to the comparison with Catholic beliefs.

So, Miriam, are you saying He is the Son of Himself?

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam,

What I’m trying to understand is not whether Jesus Christ is believed to be “God”, but whether He is believed by Catholics to be the Son of God, or if He is believed to have “generated his own Y chromosome”. (Wouldn’t that make Him the Son of Himself?)
**
Yikes, Parker you do go on.

You do not accept the Trinity so you think the Son of God is a separate human.**

To others who made comments, and to SteveVH,

This kind of question is pertinent to the kind of comment SteveVH made about my beliefs being “unusual” or whatever word he used, and is coming because of Rebecca’s comment that might as well be taken to its logical conclusion as to the comparison with Catholic beliefs.

So, Miriam, are you saying He is the Son of Himself?

This is what I said:

His human nature was from Mary. That does not mean he was not male. He was perfectly capable of generating his own Y chromosome. He was fully human, he would have the mix of chromosomes he needed.

He is, after all, GOD.

No one really knows. We only know that he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.

Parker give it a rest. This is already way off topic and you don’t believe in Jesus the same way I do anyway.

Look, you are a Mormon, accept that.

Or you could become a Catholic and then you wouldn’t have to go through all these gyrations.

 

[ParkerD]

This is what I said:

No one really knows. We only know that he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.

Parker give it a rest. This is already way off topic and you don’t believe in Jesus the same way I do anyway.

Look, you are a Mormon, accept that.

Or you could become a Catholic and then you wouldn’t have to go through all these gyrations.

Miriam,

They aren’t gyrations. I am letting your beliefs be “literal”, like SteveVH said we should all do. If He generated His own Y chromosome, as the words you chose put it, then that scientifically would mean He was the Son of Himself, literally.

Also, if He was the son of Mary and she was the only contributor to His DNA for His physical body, then that was the most basic of non-scientific and illogical ways to describe how He was conceived.

This discussion arises because of the comment by RebeccaJ, which she has repeatedly made on threads about Latter-day Saint beliefs that Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God.

If Jesus only had the physical body He had because of Mary, then when He said He was the Son of God and knew what that meant to others, He was being misleading in saying that.

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam,

They aren’t gyrations. I am letting your beliefs be “literal”, like SteveVH said we should all do. If He generated His own Y chromosome, as the words you chose put it, then that scientifically would mean He was the Son of Himself, literally.

Also, if He was the son of Mary and she was the only contributor to His DNA for His physical body, then that was the most basic of non-scientific and illogical ways to describe how He was conceived.

This discussion arises because of the comment by RebeccaJ, which she has repeatedly made on threads about Latter-day Saint beliefs that Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God.

If Jesus only had the physical body He had because of Mary, then when He said He was the Son of God and knew what that meant to others, He was being misleading in saying that.

Parker you still don’t get it. Jesus is the second person of the Blessed Trinity and he can do whatever He wants and all things are possible for Him. Remember Parker we don’t believe that Jesus is a 1/2 deity. We believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine.

You believe that Jesus is literally the son of God because you think he is only physical. From what I have understood from you, you believe that GOD (who is the creator of all things and has existed for all eternity) is a human with all the human characteristics we have. You also believe that about Jesus. I also believe that Jesus is the Son of God but, I believe it in a different way from you.

There is no true divinity in your beliefs. How can there be? When Christ is just a guy who was the son of a god who was the son of a god, forever and ever, amen.

That’s why this whole concept is so difficult for you. As I have said before (either here or on other threads) because Mormons cannot understand the Trinity or the first cause, they humanize God.

You are letting your little, tiny, human mind decide God. I know I have a little, tiny, human mind but I’m okay with not completely understanding mystery.

It’s called faith, Parker. And it would be wonderful if you actually had it. It is a grace given by God and maybe someday, God will give that to you as well.

 

[rick43235]

Well as an agnostic you don’t believe. That’s fine. It’s a shame that you are missing out on something so beautiful.

We may or may not meet after death.

Or you could become a Catholic and then you wouldn’t have to go through all these gyrations.

It’s called faith, Parker. And it would be wonderful if you actually had it. It is a grace given by God and maybe someday, God will give that to you as well.

We think we’re pretty special, don’t we?

 

[Crdl2Grv]

That’s why this whole concept is so difficult for you. As I have said before (either here or on other threads) because Mormons cannot understand the Trinity or the first cause, they humanize God.

It’s not that he doesn’t understand it. Parker’s obviously a smart guy. It’s just that Joseph Smith, et al, kinda wrote theological checks that logic and reason can’t cash, and it’s just not possible square the belief that “Heavenly Father” was once a man on another planet and monotheism. It can’t be done. So Mormons are forced to 1) change the definition of “monotheism” and 2) take issue with the very idea of having to “square” anything about theology with logic and attack reason itself. It’s pretty simple stuff.

The truth is that we all know how this ends. As the LDS church’s goal of being fully integrated into mainstream American life inches closer, the current LDS teaching about the origins of “Heavenly Father” will suddenly go the way of their doctrines on polygamy, Adam-God, the “curse” that “Heavenly Father” put on black people, etc. One of their prophets will receive a “revelation” that “Heavenly Father” was never actually a man after all. And Mormons like Parker will turn on a dime and claim that the LDS church never actually taught any of that stuff, that it was all just the personal speculation that maybe a few LDS apostles may have engaged in on their own time, you know, like a hobby, not in their official capacity as church leaders, yadda-yadda-yadda.

I cannot express how uninterested in LDS theology I’ve become after participating in the “Is Mormonism Polytheistic” thread. I was once (very recently, even) honestly interested in LDS theology. My attitude now is, “Whatever, come find me when you guys finally get your story straight.”

 

[Miriam1947]

We think we’re pretty special, don’t we?

Why yes, we do. Aren’t you special?

 

[RebeccaJ]

ParkerD, Jesus is the only Begotten Son of the Father. God from God, light from light, true God from true God.

The Word of God became Man and dwelt among us.

Your DNA fixation is odd ParkerD. The Father has no DNA, Jesus is not the Father of Himself. Please, think rationally, and stop speculating. Go with what God has Revealed about Himself.

• God is Spirit
• The Word of God became Man
• By the power of the Holy Spirit the Word of God was born of the Virgin Mary

This is called the Incarnation. Which is God’s act of Charity, perfect Love, for us. More specifically, for you. You should fall on your face and worship the God Who Created you and has Saved you.

The Son of God IS GOD. The Son of God is not the Father. The Father is not the Son.

The conception of Jesus is a miracle. DNA as nothing to do with it. Accept this gift that God has given to the world. Accept what God has Revealed about Himself.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Thirty-six verses from a book of myths and legends. Do you really think this is proof of anything? The Mormons have their book of myths and legends too - which they believe just as sincerely as you believe yours. Are their beliefs true just because they are written in a book?

I’m not sure if you’re quite making the point you’re trying to make. Mormons claim that they hold the Bible to be just as sacred and just as divinely inspired as Catholics do. (In fact, many of them claim that they are more faithful to the Bible than Catholics are.) To put it in your terms, they claim to believe the same “myths” that we do. So when Catholics and members of the LDS church debate theology, it shouldn’t be surprising to see the Bible used as a common point of reference.

 

[Miriam1947]

It’s not that he doesn’t understand it. Parker’s obviously a smart guy. It’s just that Joseph Smith, et al, kinda wrote theological checks that logic and reason can’t cash, and it’s just not possible square the belief that “Heavenly Father” was once a man on another planet and monotheism. It can’t be done. So Mormons are forced to 1) change the definition of “monotheism” and 2) take issue with the very idea of having to “square” anything about theology with logic and attack reason itself. It’s pretty simple stuff.

The truth is that we all know how this ends. As the LDS church’s goal of being fully integrated into mainstream American life inches closer, the current LDS teaching about the origins of “Heavenly Father” will suddenly go the way of their doctrines on polygamy, Adam-God, the “curse” that “Heavenly Father” put on black people, etc. One of their prophets will receive a “revelation” that “Heavenly Father” was never actually a man after all. And Mormons like Parker will turn on a dime and claim that the LDS church never actually taught any of that stuff, that it was all just the personal speculation that maybe a few LDS apostles may have engaged in on their own time, you know, like a hobby, not in their official capacity as church leaders, yadda-yadda-yadda.

I cannot express how uninterested in LDS theology I’ve become after participating in the “Is Mormonism Polytheistic” thread. I was once (very recently, even) honestly interested in LDS theology. My attitude now is, “Whatever, come find me when you guys finally get your story straight.”

Actually that might not be a bad thing. If they actually became Christians even if they have to do it through some sort of revelation. And will Parker turn on a dime? Probably.

And you’re right it is getting really old. I have unsubscribed to a bunch of threads lately.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I thought about Parker during this reading. In a roundabout way Parker was at Mass today.

I get a bit hurt when I hear of miracles on the news. The kind of miracle that can be easily explained. It’s like throwing the word love around, like I love this ice cream. When I think of the word miracle I think of Jesus. When I hear the word love I think of Jesus.

His birth was a real authentic miracle. It should not be understood, rather accepted on faith. What is understood is who He is and why He came to earth.
I demand this kind of miracle in my faith life. (The Virgin Birth)
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

Yes, it is a profound miracle. I prayed for ParkerD today at Mass. After reading his posts this morning, and then hearing the Word, his confusion was on my mind after receiving the Eucharist.

One of our sextons was killed in an accident two days ago. Clergy and parish in mourning today. But we celebrated the Eucharist together, Jesus present among us, our Life and our Hope. All who suffer and seek the healing of Jesus Christ were with us today.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker you still don’t get it. Jesus is the second person of the Blessed Trinity and he can do whatever He wants and all things are possible for Him. Remember Parker we don’t believe that Jesus is a 1/2 deity. We believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine.

You believe that Jesus is literally the son of God because you think he is only physical. From what I have understood from you, you believe that GOD (who is the creator of all things and has existed for all eternity) is a human with all the human characteristics we have. You also believe that about Jesus. I also believe that Jesus is the Son of God but, I believe it in a different way from you.

There is no true divinity in your beliefs. How can there be? When Christ is just a guy who was the son of a god who was the son of a god, forever and ever, amen.

That’s why this whole concept is so difficult for you. As I have said before (either here or on other threads) because Mormons cannot understand the Trinity or the first cause, they humanize God.

You are letting your little, tiny, human mind decide God. I know I have a little, tiny, human mind but I’m okay with not completely understanding mystery.

It’s called faith, Parker. And it would be wonderful if you actually had it. It is a grace given by God and maybe someday, God will give that to you as well.

Miriam,

The above comment shows not the slightest level of understanding about Latter-day Saint beliefs and knowledge about Jesus Christ, the literal Son of God. Jesus is more “fully God” within Latter-day Saint beliefs than within what are being described as Catholic beliefs about His being the divine Son of God, since the Catholic beliefs about the Fatherhood of God are said to be a “mystery” that should just be accepted “on faith”.

Jesus is also “fully man” within Latter-day Saint beliefs, literally by means of His literal mother, Mary. He is more “fully God” within Latter-day Saint beliefs because we are not just talking about His spirit being the Son of God, but we are talking about His physical body having received the divine attributes of His power over death through having the physical power to do that because He is the literal Son of God in a bodily way.

This ends up being important to some people, because they are able to read the words “Son of God” and know that they are literal, and know that they have faith in the Son of God to redeem them and to bring them to resurrection because He physically had and has power over death, literally, as God the Son, literally. They also know that He was able to endure the pains of the atoning sacrifice, bleeding at every pore in the garden of Gethsemane and then enduring the agony of the cross of Calvary after having suffered great pain and anguish already–all this that He could endure because His physical body, that you have minimized in your post, had that power through God His literal Father.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Miriam,

The above comment shows not the slightest level of understanding about Latter-day Saint beliefs and knowledge about Jesus Christ, the literal Son of God. Jesus is more “fully God” within Latter-day Saint beliefs than within what are being described as Catholic beliefs about His being the divine Son of God, since the Catholic beliefs about the Fatherhood of God are said to be a “mystery” that should just be accepted “on faith”.

Jesus is also “fully man” within Latter-day Saint beliefs, literally by means of His literal mother, Mary. He is more “fully God” within Latter-day Saint beliefs because we are not just talking about His spirit being the Son of God, but we are talking about His physical body having received the divine attributes of His power over death through having the physical power to do that because He is the literal Son of God in a bodily way…

Oh like Hercules and Perseus are the literal offspring of Zeus and human women, thanks.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Oh like Hercules and Perseus are the literal offspring of Zeus and human women, thanks.

Awesome.

 

[fhansen]

. . . how do Mormons keep together all these disparate, anti-factual aspects of their faith? I mean the notions about American geography, etc., long disproved by archaeology? And the big Race War in History concept?

I’m not knocking Mormons. I just see the potential for a great deal of internal cognitive dissonance, and wonder how it’s all reconciled.

How do they do it? I think their position is usually that of the missionary.

 

[CopticChristian]

Miriam,

What I’m trying to understand is not whether Jesus Christ is believed to be “God”, but whether He is believed by Catholics to be the Son of God, or if He is believed to have “generated his own Y chromosome”. (Wouldn’t that make Him the Son of Himself?)

To others who made comments, and to SteveVH,

This kind of question is pertinent to the kind of comment SteveVH made about my beliefs being “unusual” or whatever word he used, and is coming because of Rebecca’s comment that might as well be taken to its logical conclusion as to the comparison with Catholic beliefs.

So, Miriam, are you saying He is the Son of Himself?

Paul says in Romans:

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This requires belief in a Trinity. Adam was created in “our image”. This means that Adam had a created XY. No arguments here. Jesus is the new Adam. The new Adam has a inherited X and a created Y. Jesus is humanity and divinity the Son. The Son is not created. The humanity was created. This remains a mystery and belief in the Trinity.:newidea:

 

[ParkerD]

Paul says in Romans: (Romans 5:14)–but see entire chapter]

Adam was created in “our image”.

CopticChristian,

Does the sentence “Adam was created in our image” mean to you that Adam was created in the image of God, as in Genesis 1:26-27?

This means that Adam had a created XY. No arguments here. Jesus is the new Adam. The new Adam has a inherited X and a created Y. Jesus is humanity and divinity the Son. The Son is not created. The humanity was created. This remains a mystery…

So if Adam had a “created XY” and yet Jesus had a Y chromosome that was “created”, but yet that Y chromosome made it so that Catholics use the word “begotten” to describe the Son of God and insist that the Son of God was “not created” (which is already refuted by your statement about the Y chromosome), then

by that logic, it sounds like you believe Adam was doubly a son of God, and that Adam was “begotten not created”.

So how does the word “begotten” enter into the logic about a “created Y” versus an “inherited X” from His mother, Mary, who received the “inherited X” through the creation of Adam and Eve?