Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
The Son of God was not begotten at Jesus conception, he became incarnate at that point, The Son is “eternally begotten of the Father”.
- Status
C
CopticChristian
Guest
I believe that this is a question that is best answered by knowing Christology. Begotten not made, Son of Man, humanity/divinity and all of these questions are confusing the humanity and divinity. This as I said is Christology and Trinitarian theology. You are focusing on the humanity and mixing humanity/divinity. It is confusing. I am not sure that I can explain this well. You may want to look at the history of the Church, many could not understand this and as a result Councils met to declare and define this.
These questions caused Nestorianism and Monophysitism and you can search these on this website. I don’t think this line of thinking will go anywhere until you do some research and understand these issues as to humanity/divinity, Trinity, Christology.
If you want answers seek, then return.
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SteveVH
Guest
My comments are not hard to understand, Parker. I am truly trying to grasp how one can, at the same time, hold two contradictory doctrines as true. You say that you believe that God is unchangeable and at the same time believe that he was a man who progressed to godhood. That is simply an objectively impossible position to hold. And you cannot address that dilema head on. For you it all depends on perspective. Perspective has nothing to do with truth, only with one’s point of view. We make look at the same object through different lenses (perspective), but the lense does not change the true nature of the object. It may blur our vision, or enhance our vision, but it does not change the object we are viewing. So yes, I find that fact that a person can hold two contradictory beliefs as being simultaneously true, a very strange thing indeed. I was not surprised that you did not respond to my last post on this subject.
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SteveVH
Guest
Not in a physical sense. God is pure spirit. We were created with an immortal soul; with intellect and reason and given the gift of free will. We were created male and female who become one through an act of mutual self-giving, resulting in life so real that we have to give it a name nine months later. It is in two “becoming one” that we most resemble God’s image because he himself is family, the Holy Trinity.
This is just absolutely ludicrous, Parker. Catholics do not use the word “begotten” because of a Y chromosome. We believe that Christ was “eternally begotten” which means he existed before there even was such a thing as a chromosome. Further, we, including Adam, are not and will never be a “son of God” in the same sense that Jesus is the Son of God. Scritpure tells us that God sent his “only Son” to us. That should draw at least some distinction in your mind. It also tells us that we are God’s children through adoption, not through procreation.
Parker, you cannot understand because you have no concept of the difference between divinity and creation. You have been taught the false premise that both God and us are made of the same stuff (essence); that the only difference is our level of progression. This foundational flaw influences your thought all the way down the line. You believe that God is subject to the laws of his own creation, therefore, Jesus (and presumably, the Father) must have human origins and therefore two sets of chromosomes. You believe that God, the Creator of everything that exists (even chromosomes), is powerless to become incarnate, to take on human flesh, without subjecting himself to his own creation. We believe that God can do anything he wishes to do, that he is all-powerful (omnipotent).
The Scriptures tell us that he became man. He did not become God. He was always God. He was not always man (which again conflicts with the Mormon principle that God is an exalted man).
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lax16
Guest
Parker - is this true?
That God was once as we are now? Yes or no.
No, unless you include “the same as Jesus Christ Himself was once as we are now” (which I don’t consider to be a true statement since He was never “as we are now”, other than that He looked and ate like a mortal person but He was perfect and He was God the Son).
or is this true (from the Ensign 1989)?
The Prophet explained that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens”; that “he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did”; and that he “worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling.”
This clearly states that God is/was a man that dwelt on earth as Jesus did - not that he was human like Jesus was.
That God was once as we are now? Yes or no.
No, unless you include “the same as Jesus Christ Himself was once as we are now” (which I don’t consider to be a true statement since He was never “as we are now”, other than that He looked and ate like a mortal person but He was perfect and He was God the Son).
or is this true (from the Ensign 1989)?
The Prophet explained that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens”; that “he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did”; and that he “worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling.”
This clearly states that God is/was a man that dwelt on earth as Jesus did - not that he was human like Jesus was.
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h2oplyer7
Guest
NEWS ALERT!
The whole world is trying to disprove Catholicism. Mormonism is just so ridiculous with its “Lord of the Rings” style myths and people can’t help but make fun of it. For heaven’s sake, Mormons believe that the soul is made up of matter. Ask a Mormon what will happen when matter in this universe one day ceases to exist with the Big Rip. I have yet to get an answer. Everyone feels persecuted at times, but Mormons bring it on themselves with their outlandish beliefs.
The whole world is trying to disprove Catholicism. Mormonism is just so ridiculous with its “Lord of the Rings” style myths and people can’t help but make fun of it. For heaven’s sake, Mormons believe that the soul is made up of matter. Ask a Mormon what will happen when matter in this universe one day ceases to exist with the Big Rip. I have yet to get an answer. Everyone feels persecuted at times, but Mormons bring it on themselves with their outlandish beliefs.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
LOL! You’ve confused the satire with what we actually believe? The joke’s on you.
Yes, that one you got right. We’re not the only Christians to believe that, either.
The answer is that I don’t know, nor do you know, and nor do the physicists know. But even the physicists believe that there are other universes and other dimensions. So what’s the problem?
You think it’s OK to persecute people for outlandish beliefs?
I don’t feel particularly persecuted, but what you just said seems pretty disturbing. Lots of people find Catholic beliefs outlandish, but the people who persecute you, hate and fear you not for your “outlandish” beliefs, but rather because of the good things about you. They rejoice in every conflict and failing, every controversy that arises in your church. They make whole websites dedicated to gloating about your problems.
Look at what you say about us, and can you see your own church’s haters in the mirror?
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rick43235
Guest
This from someone whose religion teaches that a cracker turns into Jesus and then you eat him.
ALL religious have beliefs that appear outlandish to outsiders. Yours is no exception.
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SteveVH
Guest
Be careful with your cute remarks. You are on a Catholic site and are speaking of the greatest sacrament in the Church, the most sacred of all things, the source and summit of our faith. I, for one, do not appreciate it.
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rick43235
Guest
We are also on the Non-Catholic Religions forum where, supposedly, we are able to learn about the faith traditions and beliefs of others. Instead, we are subjected to this:
I, for one, don’t appreciate THAT. So, I guess things tend to even themselves out.
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h2oplyer7
Guest
Ok, so it is true that if you are not Catholic a lot of our beliefs can appear odd. However, putting Mormonism in the same camp as Catholicism, or even Orthodoxy, other Christian faiths, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and other major religions is ridiculous. I am a convert to the faith, and I looked at several religions, but Mormonism had to be the weirdest.
So here is Mormonism in all of its glory:
AND IT CAME TO PASS, a guy, who was taken to court in his youth for inventing stories and peeping into windows, claims to see God the Father and Jesus the Son in the woods who tells them that Christianity fell apart 1800 years (or some other number since Mormons can’t agree when the Great Apostasy was) before. Of course, God the Father was just waiting for the right white boy (because all other races are cursed) to come along in AMERICA (the original site of the Garden of Eden by the way) to restore the true religion because God was preoccupied the previous 1700 years, or perhaps too weak to do it himself. Jesus is a bad fortune teller by the way since he promised the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, but they did. Question: can there be another Great Apostasy? Mormons don’t think so because Joseph Smith did a much better job of founding a Church than Jesus.
AND IT CAME TO PASS that Joseph Smith brings three friends into the woods to look at golden plates written by native American Indians, who were actually Jews (no evidence of this by the way), who sailed across the Atlantic, or Pacific, in ancient sailboats. This would have had to be a miracle. These friends all acknowledge seeing the plates, though all three would later be excommunicated for something or other, and two would publically deny ever seeing the plates (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses). Just imagine if Jesus’ apostles behaved this way after his resurrection.
AND IT CAME TO PASS, meanwhile Joseph Smith claims he can translate the plates, which are written in Reformed Egyptian (no language by the way) by showing that he can translate real hieroglyphics. His original translations of hieroglyphics (which he claims are the Book of Abraham) turn out to be completely faulty by modern scholarship. The evidence for the tribes of Indians (sorry, Jews) in the new world, the LAMEnites and Nephites have never been found. The big chariot battles (anachronism as there were no horses) with bronze weapons have never been found. The coins of the Indian civilizations in the Book of Mormon have also never been found. So what we have here is a case of the Lord of the Rings, a very compelling and interesting mythology that will never be proved. You might as well excavate England for Mordor and Gondor.
AND IT CAME TO PASS, that Joseph Smith was persecuted for taken on several wives. He was captured and died as a martyr, if by martyr we mean someone who dies with a pistol in his hand like at the OK Corral. The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS moves to Utah (the promised land) and starts their own civilization. Eventually God changes his mind about the wives and blacks and Indians being cursed and Mormons become good American citizens.
Mormons believe the universe is eternal (it isn’t) and that God lives on a planet that orbits a star called Kolob. Mormons believe the soul is made of matter. Science has shown that one day all matter in this universe will cease to exist. Sucks for your soul. The Mormon above claims that, well, there are other universes. Even if they are he should look into what it takes to go another universe that might or might not exist. The answer, Brane Theory shows that universes are not connected in anyway. You’d have better luck transferring your conscience into another body.
In the end, it is so painfully obvious that of all the world religions, Mormonism is right up there with Greek and Egyptian mythology. Shoot, my apologies to the Greeks and Egyptians, at least their stories were a better read. Sorry Homer.
People become Mormons, not because of a reasonable search of history and theology, but for reasons of emotion. Such as: I want my marriage to live forever, I want a close knit family, and I want to instill morals into my family. These are things I commend Mormonism on, though their teaching on the absolute evil of abortion is lacking. Still, no one who investigates the world seriously comes to the conclusion that Mormonism is real. I have yet to meet a scientist who was not a Mormon who converted solely because the evidence pointed him there. There are scientists who convert to Mormonism (my neighbor) but even he admits he did so for his wife.
Now, it is true that Catholicism has some “odd” teachings of its own, but it doesn’t make claims about the natural world like Mormons do (and please don’t bring up the Galileo affair unless you actually know what you’re talking about). The Big Bang Theory was thought up by a Catholic Priest. It turned out to be confirmed by the observations of science. It shows that our universe had a beginning. It shows the universe will have an end. This is in complete disagreement with Mormon teaching that says the material world is eternal. The Catholic Church did not invent the Jews, or the Babylonians, or the Egyptians. They are real civilizations. The Catholic Church does not depend on one human man for its restoration of truth. We do depend on a God-man.
So that is my rant. I know it isn’t the most charitable, but I think it is since hopefully it will liberate someone from the bonds of the modern Mormon myth.
I would debate matters of theology with a Christian of another faith (even a JW) or a Jew, or a Muslim any day before I would seriously consider talking to a Mormon. At least they don’t have the Lord of the Rings for gospel.
So here is Mormonism in all of its glory:
AND IT CAME TO PASS, a guy, who was taken to court in his youth for inventing stories and peeping into windows, claims to see God the Father and Jesus the Son in the woods who tells them that Christianity fell apart 1800 years (or some other number since Mormons can’t agree when the Great Apostasy was) before. Of course, God the Father was just waiting for the right white boy (because all other races are cursed) to come along in AMERICA (the original site of the Garden of Eden by the way) to restore the true religion because God was preoccupied the previous 1700 years, or perhaps too weak to do it himself. Jesus is a bad fortune teller by the way since he promised the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, but they did. Question: can there be another Great Apostasy? Mormons don’t think so because Joseph Smith did a much better job of founding a Church than Jesus.
AND IT CAME TO PASS that Joseph Smith brings three friends into the woods to look at golden plates written by native American Indians, who were actually Jews (no evidence of this by the way), who sailed across the Atlantic, or Pacific, in ancient sailboats. This would have had to be a miracle. These friends all acknowledge seeing the plates, though all three would later be excommunicated for something or other, and two would publically deny ever seeing the plates (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses). Just imagine if Jesus’ apostles behaved this way after his resurrection.
AND IT CAME TO PASS, meanwhile Joseph Smith claims he can translate the plates, which are written in Reformed Egyptian (no language by the way) by showing that he can translate real hieroglyphics. His original translations of hieroglyphics (which he claims are the Book of Abraham) turn out to be completely faulty by modern scholarship. The evidence for the tribes of Indians (sorry, Jews) in the new world, the LAMEnites and Nephites have never been found. The big chariot battles (anachronism as there were no horses) with bronze weapons have never been found. The coins of the Indian civilizations in the Book of Mormon have also never been found. So what we have here is a case of the Lord of the Rings, a very compelling and interesting mythology that will never be proved. You might as well excavate England for Mordor and Gondor.
AND IT CAME TO PASS, that Joseph Smith was persecuted for taken on several wives. He was captured and died as a martyr, if by martyr we mean someone who dies with a pistol in his hand like at the OK Corral. The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS moves to Utah (the promised land) and starts their own civilization. Eventually God changes his mind about the wives and blacks and Indians being cursed and Mormons become good American citizens.
Mormons believe the universe is eternal (it isn’t) and that God lives on a planet that orbits a star called Kolob. Mormons believe the soul is made of matter. Science has shown that one day all matter in this universe will cease to exist. Sucks for your soul. The Mormon above claims that, well, there are other universes. Even if they are he should look into what it takes to go another universe that might or might not exist. The answer, Brane Theory shows that universes are not connected in anyway. You’d have better luck transferring your conscience into another body.
In the end, it is so painfully obvious that of all the world religions, Mormonism is right up there with Greek and Egyptian mythology. Shoot, my apologies to the Greeks and Egyptians, at least their stories were a better read. Sorry Homer.
People become Mormons, not because of a reasonable search of history and theology, but for reasons of emotion. Such as: I want my marriage to live forever, I want a close knit family, and I want to instill morals into my family. These are things I commend Mormonism on, though their teaching on the absolute evil of abortion is lacking. Still, no one who investigates the world seriously comes to the conclusion that Mormonism is real. I have yet to meet a scientist who was not a Mormon who converted solely because the evidence pointed him there. There are scientists who convert to Mormonism (my neighbor) but even he admits he did so for his wife.
Now, it is true that Catholicism has some “odd” teachings of its own, but it doesn’t make claims about the natural world like Mormons do (and please don’t bring up the Galileo affair unless you actually know what you’re talking about). The Big Bang Theory was thought up by a Catholic Priest. It turned out to be confirmed by the observations of science. It shows that our universe had a beginning. It shows the universe will have an end. This is in complete disagreement with Mormon teaching that says the material world is eternal. The Catholic Church did not invent the Jews, or the Babylonians, or the Egyptians. They are real civilizations. The Catholic Church does not depend on one human man for its restoration of truth. We do depend on a God-man.
So that is my rant. I know it isn’t the most charitable, but I think it is since hopefully it will liberate someone from the bonds of the modern Mormon myth.
I would debate matters of theology with a Christian of another faith (even a JW) or a Jew, or a Muslim any day before I would seriously consider talking to a Mormon. At least they don’t have the Lord of the Rings for gospel.
C
Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Since *you *brought up Galileo, and presumably think you know what you’re talking about, please elaborate.
This should be good.
Or hopefully less tedious than you mangling theology for 2 pages while saying you don’t want to debate theology.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
C
Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Thank you, Rebecca.
These notes stand out, from the explanation of why the Pope’s ratification of Gallileo’s trial result should not be counted against the infallibility doctrine:
Since your own church places all these rules for a statement by the Pope to be infallible, it seems like all the moaning and groaning about my explanation for our Section 50 rules (for canonization of doctrine) seem like an exercise in double-think. Looks like your Pope can speak and be mistaken, so why do antiMos get so hot and bothered when we don’t freak out over our church leaders making mistakes?
This isn’t a critique of your church; on the contrary, I think we have a lot in common here.
H
h2oplyer7
Guest
I was baptized Lutheran and brought up in an Evangelical Fundamentalist household. Obviously, my theology was very confused as a child. My family is full of amazing Christians; yet, when I went off to college I was soon confronted by the idea that faith and reason were incompatible. This was reinforced when my family and friends continued to insist that I take the entire Bible in a literalistic fashion. When what the Bible said seemed to contradict reality, I was told to have faith. God would provide the answers I was told.
I love my family, and leaving Christianity was very hard for me, but I had to because I couldn’t live with what I considered living a lie. I remained an Agnostic for nearly a decade. During that time I read about various faiths, searching for God. Very few religions can be put in a box, and all religions are multi-layered. There are a lot of lies about the various faiths out there, and in order to know the truth you need to go to the horse’s mouth.
When it came to your average Catholic, they seemed to be the most disconnected and ignorant of their faith when compared to everyone else. Mormons on the other hand, were at the top in terms of kindness, helpfulness and knowledge of their faith. Five years ago I took up a Mormon missionary on his challenge to read the Book of Mormon. Maybe you don’t believe me, but I really wanted it to be the truth. Yet, I was soon confronted with the same conundrum I experienced as a Fundamentalist, a major conflict between faith and reason. There is NO evidence that the events in the Book of Mormon ever happened. Modern cosmology completely disagrees with Joseph Smith’s Aristotelian idea of matter and the universe being eternal. All of the major “proofs” for Mormonism come with major DOCUMENTED doubts.
Now, I will not go into my conversion to Catholicism, but Catholicism/Orthodoxy is surprisingly amazing, simple and reasonable. The Church has made its fair share of mistakes, true, all brought about by sin, there have been some very bad popes and bishops. Yet, the Church has never changed its mind on a single Dogmatic teaching. The Catholic Church never had a period where it taught that there was not a Real Presence in the Eucharist. The Church never had a period where it taught against the Holy Trinity. The Church never taught that so-and-so group of people are cursed by God, but now that the civil rights movement is in full swing, God has changed his mind. The Church never taught in one century that polygamy was good, and in the next that it was a sin. Now, granted the Catholic Church has developed its theology in some areas, but never at the expense of overthrowing a previous Dogma.
When you look at the Catholic/Orthodox Church, its great theologians (St. Augustine, St. Basil, St. Athanasius), philosophers (St. Thomas Aquinas), mystics (St. John of the Cross), saints (Blessed Teresa of Calcutta), scientists (Mendel, Galileo, Pasteur, Planke, Lemaitre), miracles (Lanciano, Lordes, Fatima), generals (St. Joan of Arc) you cannot help but be blown away by the history and brilliance of the various parts of the Body of Christ. When you compare this to Mormonism, or really any other world religion, you find that it does not compare. No individuals in these other faiths even surpass the human founder of that particular faith. Lutherans will never surpass Luther, Baptists will always follow in the footsteps of Calvin, Muslims behind Muhammad, Buddhists behind Buddha, and Mormons behind Joseph Smith. Each of these religions creates a cult around their creator. Disagreeing with the founder is tantamount to heresy. Yet, when it comes to Catholicism/Orthodoxy, there is only Jesus Christ. The apostles, the Church Fathers, the councils, the popes are all subject to him. The orthodoxy of any man is judged by no one man, but by the collective tradition of the Church. There is NO ONE HUMAN MAN we depend on for absolute truth! If there is, it is the one God-man Jesus Christ. I am happy to admit that no Catholic will ever surpass Jesus Christ.
Sadly, Mormons will always be apologizing for the many errors of Joseph Smith. He created a mythology of the North American continent that will never be proved. He taught things about Cosmology that have already been disproved. Mormon defenders defend Mormonism because they truly believe it is true in their heart, because it has brought joy to their lives. In fact, my Mormon friends even tell me I should trust my heart over my mind, that burning in my bosom. In fact, I don’t even think that burning is false. I think that it is Jesus Christ working with Mormons the best he can. As long as Mormons are truly seeking God to the best of their ability they may yet achieve salvation. If their chief desire is to gain glory and become a great celestial master of the universe, I am afraid they are destined to perdition.
Mormonism is no more dangerous than any other heresy, but it carries a unique risk of ruining the concept of deity for those who are truly searching God. When god is no more than a man of flesh and bones, it sorta takes away the majesty of it all. Anyways, I know this may not mean anything to the Mormons on the thread, but unless someone can show me an institution like the Catholic Church, I am hooked.
I love my family, and leaving Christianity was very hard for me, but I had to because I couldn’t live with what I considered living a lie. I remained an Agnostic for nearly a decade. During that time I read about various faiths, searching for God. Very few religions can be put in a box, and all religions are multi-layered. There are a lot of lies about the various faiths out there, and in order to know the truth you need to go to the horse’s mouth.
When it came to your average Catholic, they seemed to be the most disconnected and ignorant of their faith when compared to everyone else. Mormons on the other hand, were at the top in terms of kindness, helpfulness and knowledge of their faith. Five years ago I took up a Mormon missionary on his challenge to read the Book of Mormon. Maybe you don’t believe me, but I really wanted it to be the truth. Yet, I was soon confronted with the same conundrum I experienced as a Fundamentalist, a major conflict between faith and reason. There is NO evidence that the events in the Book of Mormon ever happened. Modern cosmology completely disagrees with Joseph Smith’s Aristotelian idea of matter and the universe being eternal. All of the major “proofs” for Mormonism come with major DOCUMENTED doubts.
Now, I will not go into my conversion to Catholicism, but Catholicism/Orthodoxy is surprisingly amazing, simple and reasonable. The Church has made its fair share of mistakes, true, all brought about by sin, there have been some very bad popes and bishops. Yet, the Church has never changed its mind on a single Dogmatic teaching. The Catholic Church never had a period where it taught that there was not a Real Presence in the Eucharist. The Church never had a period where it taught against the Holy Trinity. The Church never taught that so-and-so group of people are cursed by God, but now that the civil rights movement is in full swing, God has changed his mind. The Church never taught in one century that polygamy was good, and in the next that it was a sin. Now, granted the Catholic Church has developed its theology in some areas, but never at the expense of overthrowing a previous Dogma.
When you look at the Catholic/Orthodox Church, its great theologians (St. Augustine, St. Basil, St. Athanasius), philosophers (St. Thomas Aquinas), mystics (St. John of the Cross), saints (Blessed Teresa of Calcutta), scientists (Mendel, Galileo, Pasteur, Planke, Lemaitre), miracles (Lanciano, Lordes, Fatima), generals (St. Joan of Arc) you cannot help but be blown away by the history and brilliance of the various parts of the Body of Christ. When you compare this to Mormonism, or really any other world religion, you find that it does not compare. No individuals in these other faiths even surpass the human founder of that particular faith. Lutherans will never surpass Luther, Baptists will always follow in the footsteps of Calvin, Muslims behind Muhammad, Buddhists behind Buddha, and Mormons behind Joseph Smith. Each of these religions creates a cult around their creator. Disagreeing with the founder is tantamount to heresy. Yet, when it comes to Catholicism/Orthodoxy, there is only Jesus Christ. The apostles, the Church Fathers, the councils, the popes are all subject to him. The orthodoxy of any man is judged by no one man, but by the collective tradition of the Church. There is NO ONE HUMAN MAN we depend on for absolute truth! If there is, it is the one God-man Jesus Christ. I am happy to admit that no Catholic will ever surpass Jesus Christ.
Sadly, Mormons will always be apologizing for the many errors of Joseph Smith. He created a mythology of the North American continent that will never be proved. He taught things about Cosmology that have already been disproved. Mormon defenders defend Mormonism because they truly believe it is true in their heart, because it has brought joy to their lives. In fact, my Mormon friends even tell me I should trust my heart over my mind, that burning in my bosom. In fact, I don’t even think that burning is false. I think that it is Jesus Christ working with Mormons the best he can. As long as Mormons are truly seeking God to the best of their ability they may yet achieve salvation. If their chief desire is to gain glory and become a great celestial master of the universe, I am afraid they are destined to perdition.
Mormonism is no more dangerous than any other heresy, but it carries a unique risk of ruining the concept of deity for those who are truly searching God. When god is no more than a man of flesh and bones, it sorta takes away the majesty of it all. Anyways, I know this may not mean anything to the Mormons on the thread, but unless someone can show me an institution like the Catholic Church, I am hooked.
H
h2oplyer7
Guest
Last thing: it doesn’t really matter what your religion teaches as truth in terms of theology. Technically, it doesn’t matter how odd any religion’s teachings are if it is the true faith. If God says it is so, then it is so. No, I am not Mormon because I think your beliefs are odd. Heck, Catholic beliefs are in many ways far more odd than Mormon beliefs. No, I am not Mormon because your beliefs are completely dependant on accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet. When it comes to that, besides an errie prediction that South Carolina would succeed from the Union, every one of his other “infallible” teachings which depend on metaphyics, cosmology, and archaeology have all proven to be false.
Catholics do not have this problem. The Real Presence of the Eucharist might be an odd teaching, the Trinity might be an odd belief, but nothing in reality shows it not to be the case. Now, if the Catholic Church taught that on a microscopic level the body and blood of Jesus can be seen under the bread and wine, and when put under a microscope this turned out to be false, then I would reject the Catholic Church. If tomorrow the Catholic Church declares that contraception is no longer a mortal sin, then the Church has failed and I would no longer be Catholic.
It is precisely because of the inconsistencies of your church that your teachings are odd. Faith in the Mormon god is a blind faith and depends on shutting off your God-given sense of reason.
Catholics do not have this problem. The Real Presence of the Eucharist might be an odd teaching, the Trinity might be an odd belief, but nothing in reality shows it not to be the case. Now, if the Catholic Church taught that on a microscopic level the body and blood of Jesus can be seen under the bread and wine, and when put under a microscope this turned out to be false, then I would reject the Catholic Church. If tomorrow the Catholic Church declares that contraception is no longer a mortal sin, then the Church has failed and I would no longer be Catholic.
It is precisely because of the inconsistencies of your church that your teachings are odd. Faith in the Mormon god is a blind faith and depends on shutting off your God-given sense of reason.
C
Cowboy_Pete
Guest
We see Jesus Christ as the founder of our church, and we never disagree with Him. Since we don’t see Joseph Smith as our founder, we disagree with him without hesitation. We see him as a great man, but flawed and wrong on occasion, just like Moses was.
Why should I apologize for someone else’ errors
I’ve got enough trouble trying to repent of my own sins. Why take responsibility for someone else’? Only Jesus needed to do that.Nicely said.
Our own hymns say “wake up and do something more than dream of your mansions above/doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure, a blessing, a duty, and love”THANK you for calling us heretics rather than non-Christians. What you said is consistent with the teachings of your church.
I appreciate the sincere explanation of your perspective. Do you think that Michaelangelo’s picture of God in the Sistine Chapel ruins the concept of deity for those who are truly searching for God? Because to me, the painting shows His Majesty and grace.
What you said meant a great deal to me, and my intent wasn’t to proselytize or to snag you from your good church. Thank you.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
The chromosome discussion will never be answered in this lifetime. No one will gain from this discussion. Jesus the man was created. Jesus the Son was not. The humanity was creature, man, like us in every way but sin. The Son was and always will be. Jesus was humanity/man/Creature without sin. Jesus was Man/Son as part of the Trinity. The trinity is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus was not the Father, not the Holy Spirit but the Son. This is a hard saying and difficult to understand with my created mind. I believe what I believe and there is no chromosome explanation that can change this article of Faith.
For me if the seed of the woman was to crush the Spirit then Mary contributed a Y as mother. If Jesus was to be Jewish then his mother had to be Jewish. The old Adam was created then the new Adam was created and had a created Y. These things we believe about Jesus, are seen in Scripture, and what we believe about Jesus, what was to happen in redemption and in the long run if you take out the red stuff it is what we believe. The bible message is creation, fall, redemption and glory. Chromosomes and the like are interesting however the discussion is conjecture.
In my opinion Protestant thought is an aberration of Christian teaching. Protestant thought evolves. No disrespect to Mormons however absent Protestant thought I believe there could not have been a Joseph Smith as he was born into a Protestant milieu and Mormon thought evolved into Moromon thought. Just another thought process.
H
h2oplyer7
Guest
I have to admit, our churches are very similar in many ways. I appreciate your honest responses.
When it comes down to it, as much as I disagree with the LDS church, I think our churches should continue to come together on many social issues affecting our nation today. When it comes to marriage, contraception, abortion (mostly), and family, our churches see eye to eye. I think as long as we do our part to defend Christian morality, we can all contribute to God’s kingdom.
When it comes down to it, as much as I disagree with the LDS church, I think our churches should continue to come together on many social issues affecting our nation today. When it comes to marriage, contraception, abortion (mostly), and family, our churches see eye to eye. I think as long as we do our part to defend Christian morality, we can all contribute to God’s kingdom.
C
Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Well said. No disrespect taken. In fact, the Book of Mormon agrees with you, and sets out, in the second book of Nephi, how the Protestant Reformation helped to pave the way for what we call the Restoration of the Gospel.
With that said, my own observation is that although we are more superficially like Protestants, that in the aspects that matter most to Mormons, that we’re more like Catholics than like Protestants. Although I freely admit that Protestants and Catholics are more like each other than either of you is like us. We are definitely oddballs, and I don’t blame you for sniffing your noses at us,
and enjoying a few funny jokes at our expense, but while we may seem like the bastards at the family reunion, I hope you will eventually recognize that we are part of the family. Those are my words; I’m not imputing those attitudes towards you, Coptic!
- Status