How do the Mormons do it?

[ParkerD]

What attempts?

Z,

Posts 365, 364 and 361 include examples. Mocking—different than sarcasm—is an attempt to have a collective attitude of “we’re right and you have a ridiculous, untenable position that is ultimately laughable”. What that does, is short-changes not only the “accused”, but short-changes others because it reinforces “group think”.

“Group think” inhibits a personal relationship with the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd will lead through guiding a person’s open, communicative, trusting and believing heart–and it will be toward changes in their life that will usually be different than “group think” because “group think” relies on the wisdom of men.

Also, the simple statement about “make Jesus a liar”, which is a part of that “group think” logic, is an example of attempting to deprive free will choice, which the Savior does not do. The Savior doesn’t rely on monopoly power. He wouldn’t. It would subvert His mission of being the Good Shepherd, because it impedes the sincerity of an open, two-way relationship with Him.

A wish of peace to those who made those comments. It doesn’t mean every comment they make is that way–just those in particular, since you asked for examples, twice. (I really didn’t want to single out examples.)

I might as well provide an example from one of the writings of an early church father that I read once. It talks about someone or some group who was not joining in partaking of the Eucharist.

I think it is evident such people would do that as an act of conscience on their own part, acting out of their own free will choice.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Z,

Posts 365, 364 and 361 include examples. Mocking—different than sarcasm—is an attempt to have a collective attitude of “we’re right and you have a ridiculous, untenable position that is ultimately laughable”. What that does, is short-changes not only the “accused”, but short-changes others because it reinforces “group think”.

“Group think” inhibits a personal relationship with the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd will lead through guiding a person’s open, communicative, trusting and believing heart–and it will be toward changes in their life that will usually be different than “group think” because “group think” relies on the wisdom of men.

Also, the simple statement about “make Jesus a liar”, which is a part of that “group think” logic, is an example of attempting to deprive free will choice, which the Savior does not do. The Savior doesn’t rely on monopoly power. He wouldn’t. It would subvert His mission of being the Good Shepherd, because it impedes the sincerity of an open, two-way relationship with Him.

A wish of peace to those who made those comments. It doesn’t mean every comment they make is that way–just those in particular, since you asked for examples, twice. (I really didn’t want to single out examples.)

I might as well provide an example from one of the writings of an early church father that I read once. It talks about someone or some group who was not joining in partaking of the Eucharist.

I think it is evident such people would do that as an act of conscience on their own part, acting out of their own free will choice.

Parker I do agree with most of what you wrote. Those post are not what I like to see as well. At the same time we are all from different experiences and at different points in our lives. I know you take this into account. One way I try to look at such things is to ask myself when I have mocked as well at any point, at any certain time in my own lifespan.
We all pretty much have the same sins. I have heard Mormons mocked, and Catholics alike. So we go beyond that like walking through some weeds and brush in order to get to the clearing.

For me the question comes down to this:
Am I trying to win an argument or a soul for Jesus? I do get caught on both sides.

As one who has found himself deep into the Catholic faith, for me its entirely all about Jesus and His love for me. Because I have this special relationship with Him it then becomes all about you Parker. So with that being said I am here for Jesus to help win your soul for Him. My prayer would be that you loosen your grip a bit and dive deep into learning the Catholic faith. In this you would have to join what is called the RCIA at your nearest Catholic church. You would just tell them exactly where you are holding nothing back. Have no pre-conceived notions of why you were there. Just jump in this canoe and take it down the river to see what you might see. To find what you might find.

I won’t comment on how I feel about this area of the forum. But if it gets you through the weeds that would be a good thing right?

God Bless
Can’t be more sincere
Love Ya! ,……in Christ

I have to ad this Parker.
I am 52 years old, lived in Utah for 13 years now. I attended your Sacrament meetings for about 14 years. Many of my own family members are LDS. My parents had no religion but I ended up living with my grandparents at a very early age. I became Catholic 13 years ago. My own experience of group think would be something like this.

Catholics have group think with very little peer pressure. For me my group think came after many years of journeying. This would be a good snapshot of a second in my own life.
http://utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html
If only may parents knew God

My own Catholic thinking came about before I walked into a Catholic Church or knew about her teachings. As I learned I already believed what they were showing me. I just could not put it into words like I can now. An example would be as a child I knew Christmas was very special in a spiritual sense. A sense of giving and of receiving. But when I attended my first Christmas Mass I found myself at Christmas itself. I witnessed first hand my first real Christmas……Christ-Mass

 

[smirknoff]

I wish more people here were like you.

The rest seem more interested inthe using Mormons for target practice. A jackmormon friend of mine visited this forum a few months back, genuinely interested in Catholicism. He told me he felt like he had a price on his head and everyone wanted a piece of him. I wish he had met you instead.

Parker I do agree with most of what you wrote. Those post are not what I like to see as well. At the same time we are all from different experiences and at different points in our lives. I know you take this into account. One way I try to look at such things is to ask myself when I have mocked as well at any point, at any certain time in my own lifespan.
We all pretty much have the same sins. I have heard Mormons mocked, and Catholics alike. So we go beyond that like walking through some weeds and brush in order to get to the clearing.

For me the question comes down to this:
Am I trying to win an argument or a soul for Jesus? I do get caught on both sides.

As one who has found himself deep into the Catholic faith, for me its entirely all about Jesus and His love for me. Because I have this special relationship with Him it then becomes all about you Parker. So with that being said I am here for Jesus to help win your soul for Him. My prayer would be that you loosen your grip a bit and dive deep into learning the Catholic faith. In this you would have to join what is called the RCIA at your nearest Catholic church. You would just tell them exactly where you are holding nothing back. Have no pre-conceived notions of why you were there. Just jump in this canoe and take it down the river to see what you might see. To find what you might find.

I won’t comment on how I feel about this area of the forum. But if it gets you through the weeds that would be a good thing right?

God Bless
Can’t be more sincere
Love Ya! ,……in Christ

I have to ad this Parker.
I am 52 years old, lived in Utah for 13 years now. I attended your Sacrament meetings for about 14 years. Many of my own family members are LDS. My parents had no religion but I ended up living with my grandparents at a very early age. I became Catholic 13 years ago. My own experience of group think would be something like this.

Catholics have group think with very little peer pressure. For me my group think came after many years of journeying. This would be a good snapshot of a second in my own life.
http://utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html
If only may parents knew God

My own Catholic thinking came about before I walked into a Catholic Church or knew about her teachings. As I learned I already believed what they were showing me. I just could not put it into words like I can now. An example would be as a child I knew Christmas was very special in a spiritual sense. A sense of giving and of receiving. But when I attended my first Christmas Mass I found myself at Christmas itself. I witnessed first hand my first real Christmas……Christ-Mass

 

[catholic-rcia]

Parker,
here is a writing below I discovered while learning the Catholic faith. Can you see the depth in this? The Saints in the Catholic Church have this common theme. Out of my whole Parish I know of one that fits this definition. But only partly. This is why it is called rare in this writing. A study of the Saints will light this writing up for you. I don’t believe you can find it any where else but in the Catholic Church. Yet my own Grandmother, a Mormon Convert carries this title for me. Also my agnostic grand father. Both Saints in my own eyes. They simply loved others well. As a Catholic I am ok if they are not in heaven. Because I will find them in Jesus as it was His love through them that I discovered as I became Catholic. Now I see them both pointing to Jesus. This is what a Saint does well!

“Jesus has many who love his heavenly kingdom, but few who bear his Cross, Many want consolation, but few desire adversity. Many are eager to share Jesus’ table, but few will join him in fasting. Everyone would be glad to rejoice with him, but not many are willing to suffer for him. Many will follow Jesus as far as the breaking of the bread, but few will stay to drink the cup of his passionate self -sacrifice. Many are inspired by his miracles, but few accept the shame of his Cross. Many love Jesus as long as they have no troubles. Many praise and bless him as long as they receive some comfort from him. But if Jesus hides himself, leaving them even for a brief moment they start complaining and become dejected.

But those who love Jesus for Jesus’ sake, and not for any special privileges, bless him in all difficulties and anguish, as well as in times of great comfort. Even if he should never comfort them again, they would continue to praise him. What astonishing power rests in the pure love of Jesus that is not corrupted with self-interest or self love! One term describes those who are always lovers of comfort: mercenary. Don’t they show themselves to be lovers of self rather than Jesus? All they care about is their own advantage, profit and glorification. Where can we find anyone who is willing to serve God for nothing? It is rare to discover someone so spiritual! Do you know anyone who is truly poor in spirit and free from dependence on any created thing?

Such a person “is worth far more than rubies!” (Prov 31:10) “If one were to give all the wealth of his house for love, it would be utterly scorned” (Song of Songs 8:7). And if someone tries hard to make amends for all of his sins, he still has a long way to go. And if he is exceedingly virtuous and glowing with devotion, an essential ingredient is still lacking. What must he do? He must give up everything, especially himself, retaining no trace of selfishness. And when he has done everything required of him. He must consider it as nothing. He must not agree with others when they applaud him, but rather admit that he is actually an ordinary servant”
** **…Thomas Kempis

 

[catholic-rcia]

I wish more people here were like you.

The rest seem more interested inthe using Mormons for target practice. A jackmormon friend of mine visited this forum a few months back, genuinely interested in Catholicism. He told me he felt like he had a price on his head and everyone wanted a piece of him. I wish he had met you instead.

Praise God

Tell your freind I am at every RCIA around the country. I am just one of them out of many. That would be the place to go…no pressure at all to join!!! Its more than that. It is what your friend was looking for, just did not know it. You know how forums can be right? Face to face is much better than a forum.

In Christ
Rich

 

[Telstar]

Z,

Posts 365, 364 and 361 include examples. Mocking—different than sarcasm—is an attempt to have a collective attitude of “we’re right and you have a ridiculous, untenable position that is ultimately laughable”. What that does, is short-changes not only the “accused”, but short-changes others because it reinforces “group think”.

“Group think” inhibits a personal relationship with the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd will lead through guiding a person’s open, communicative, trusting and believing heart–and it will be toward changes in their life that will usually be different than “group think” because “group think” relies on the wisdom of men.

Also, the simple statement about “make Jesus a liar”, which is a part of that “group think” logic, is an example of attempting to deprive free will choice, which the Savior does not do. The Savior doesn’t rely on monopoly power. He wouldn’t. It would subvert His mission of being the Good Shepherd, because it impedes the sincerity of an open, two-way relationship with Him.

A wish of peace to those who made those comments. It doesn’t mean every comment they make is that way–just those in particular, since you asked for examples, twice. (I really didn’t want to single out examples.)

I might as well provide an example from one of the writings of an early church father that I read once. It talks about someone or some group who was not joining in partaking of the Eucharist.

I think it is evident such people would do that as an act of conscience on their own part, acting out of their own free will choice.

First of all, since my post was one of the ones that you mentioned, I think I should respond to this post to make sure that you don’t get away with twisting the words of my response into something that it wasn’t, as you seem to be doing. My post was commenting on your mathematical gyrations that were seemingly posted as some kind of theoretical conclusion that the LDS church will ‘save’ more souls in the end, according to your calculations. I was not ‘mocking’ any of your religious beliefs, at all. I was just laughing at the great lengths that you, personally, would go to, that you seemed to think would impress all of us, by showing your extensive methodology and formulas for drawing those conclusions.

Salvation is certainly not that complicated or ‘calculated’, nor is it possible to ever calculate who or how many members of any ‘church’ will be saved, or won’t be. Only God knows that. I happen to believe that no one will ever be saved except through the actions and prayers of the Roman Catholic Church, no matter what they might believe. That’s just a simple fact. But, I’m certainly not going to dig out my calculator to try and extrapolate just how many souls that might be, in order to impress anyone else as to how good that would make my Church look, because that’s completely irrelevant to me.

It never ceases to amaze me that you (and other LDS) seem to use phraseology to interpret the actions or words of other people that you converse with about any subject, but most especially when talking about religious beliefs. You look for certain ‘buzzwords’ that you associate with some previously held belief of their meanings. Most people don’t speak in any kind of secret ‘code’, but the more I see LDS posting such convoluted interpretations, the more I come to the conclusion that Mormons do, in fact, speak and interpret everyone’s words (especially the Bible) according to some kind of secret ‘Mormon code’ that defines those words or phrases, with no other possible meaning than what you assume they mean.

One of those Mormon ‘code words’ is your use of the phrase ‘group think’ that implies that if a group of people adhere to the same beliefs, or act in a certain and well defined way, they must somehow give up their own free will, which only you see as being detrimental to people in their exercising of their ‘free agency’ (we all know, LDS never call it ‘free will’ unless they’re trying to sound more ‘Christian’ ). What you still fail to understand is that God gave us all free will to choose whatever we want to believe. If we choose to follow the rigid rule that was established by Jesus, then it’s our own choice to do so, the same way you made your choice to follow Joseph Smith’s rules (until changed by another prophet). We’re never forced to comply with any of those rules, but we all do it willingly, because we believe that it’s the only rule to follow.

As Catholics, we all have a unique relationship with Jesus. He knows every one of us, and cares for us all, individually. We become part of Him, whenever we partake of the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. No one can ever get closer to Him than that, no matter how hard they try. Jesus really is the Good Shepherd, and we’re all members of His flock. We put all of our faith and trust in Him, and fully believe that He will gently lead us on the correct path to His Holy Pasture (Heaven). He is our goal. He’s the One who leads us, wherever He wishes us to go. We fully trust that He will never lead us astray. He would certainly never lie to us, no matter what Joseph Smith implies about Him doing just that. You have your own free agency to believe in whatever Joseph Smith taught. If you can still believe that Jesus left His people without guidance for 1800 years before JS could be born to fix what Jesus messed up, then that’s your prerogative. Your own ‘free agency’.

In the end, we’ll all be judged by God, alone (not JS). He’ll decide who’s really worthy of entering His Heavenly Kingdom, and who’s not. Personally, I don’t think holding a ‘temple recommend’ will make any difference to Him, but, I could be wrong about that. He’ll judge us according to what’s in our hearts, not where a ‘group of men’ decide we’re worthy to go on this earth, because that’s a perfect example of someone removing our ‘free will choice’.

 

[h2oplyer7]

I do have to admit that Telstar is absolutely correct about those numbers. I actually read that post twice just to make sure Parker wasn’t being sarcastic about a previous post. I don’t get the reasons behind those numbers, or even the need to have numbers like that. If it turns out that just 1% of the human race is saved, and if I am not among the elect, well, it’s God’s perfect justice. I can only throw myself upon his mercy.

 

[ParkerD]

…My post was commenting on your mathematical gyrations that were seemingly posted as some kind of theoretical conclusion that the LDS church will ‘save’ more souls in the end, according to your calculations. I was not ‘mocking’ any of your religious beliefs, at all. I was just laughing at the great lengths that you, personally, would go to, that you seemed to think would impress all of us, by showing your extensive methodology and formulas for drawing those conclusions.

Salvation is certainly not that complicated or ‘calculated’, nor is it possible to ever calculate who or how many members of any ‘church’ will be saved, or won’t be. Only God knows that. I happen to believe that no one will ever be saved except through the actions and prayers of the Roman Catholic Church, no matter what they might believe. That’s just a simple fact. But, I’m certainly not going to dig out my calculator to try and extrapolate just how many souls that might be, in order to impress anyone else as to how good that would make my Church look, because that’s completely irrelevant to me.

It never ceases to amaze me that you (and other LDS) seem to use phraseology to interpret the actions or words of other people that you converse with about any subject, but most especially when talking about religious beliefs. You look for certain ‘buzzwords’ that you associate with some previously held belief of their meanings. Most people don’t speak in any kind of secret ‘code’, but the more I see LDS posting such convoluted interpretations, the more I come to the conclusion that Mormons do, in fact, speak and interpret everyone’s words (especially the Bible) according to some kind of secret ‘Mormon code’ that defines those words or phrases, with no other possible meaning than what you assume they mean.

One of those Mormon ‘code words’ is your use of the phrase ‘group think’ that implies that if a group of people adhere to the same beliefs, or act in a certain and well defined way, they must somehow give up their own free will, which only you see as being detrimental to people in their exercising of their ‘free agency’ (we all know, LDS never call it ‘free will’ unless they’re trying to sound more ‘Christian’ ). What you still fail to understand is that God gave us all free will to choose whatever we want to believe…

Telstar,

The post that you called “mathematical gyrations” dealt with answering a question about “how powerful” God is and how seemingly “weak” Christ would be perceived for there to have been an apostasy, which logic I of course don’t agree with at all.

Christ is there for everyone, including for those in the spirit world and for those who haven’t found Him yet who live on this earth. The word “church” means “congregation of believers”.

To me, figuring out “success” of the plan of salvation would have to do with “how many souls come unto Christ”–which I don’t consider a “numbers game” at all. If each soul is truly considered equally important (which I believe with all my heart), then that is not a “numbers game”. That means God loves each and every soul ever born on this earth, and continues to do that and will do that during the upcoming Millenium. Just because people can be counted, does not make each one less singly important.

The Millenium will see world peace, and a decrease or an elimination of disease as we know it, so the numbers that may have seemed astronomically large, are not unrealistic for an eight or nine hundred year period of righteous, unified people living on the earth. (I was surprised no Catholic responded with an expectation about the number of righteous people during the Millenium under Catholic expectations of what that worldwide peace will bring to the world.)

I used the words “group think” having to do not with beliefs, but with an attitude that looks for support from others while at the same time poking fun at one person or at a “few people” who in this case don’t share the same beliefs as the “group”. Christ didn’t teach that kind of approach to living in a world where people have differing beliefs. Neither did the apostles.

So I hope I have clarified a little more. Wishing peace to all readers.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Z,

Posts 365, 364 and 361 include examples. Mocking—different than sarcasm—is an attempt to have a collective attitude of “we’re right and you have a ridiculous, untenable position that is ultimately laughable”. What that does, is short-changes not only the “accused”, but short-changes others because it reinforces “group think”.

“Group think” inhibits a personal relationship with the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd will lead through guiding a person’s open, communicative, trusting and believing heart–and it will be toward changes in their life that will usually be different than “group think” because “group think” relies on the wisdom of men.

Also, the simple statement about “make Jesus a liar”, which is a part of that “group think” logic, is an example of attempting to deprive free will choice, which the Savior does not do. The Savior doesn’t rely on monopoly power. He wouldn’t. It would subvert His mission of being the Good Shepherd, because it impedes the sincerity of an open, two-way relationship with Him.

A wish of peace to those who made those comments. It doesn’t mean every comment they make is that way–just those in particular, since you asked for examples, twice. (I really didn’t want to single out examples.)

I might as well provide an example from one of the writings of an early church father that I read once. It talks about someone or some group who was not joining in partaking of the Eucharist.

I think it is evident such people would do that as an act of conscience on their own part, acting out of their own free will choice.

Post 361 is not mocking any more than your post to which it replies, your post is quoted in 361 and the tone is really quite belligerent, any “mocking” and sarcasm is in direct response to the belligerent tone of your post.

Posts 364 and 365 have nothing to do with “we’re right and you have a ridiculous, untenable position that is ultimately laughable” they are not addressed to the LDS position but at your silly numbers post.

As to “group think” you show this trait consistently from your thinking like the LDS group about Constantine to your adherence to the “great apostasy”, really you have no business lecturing others about “group think”.
I have to say though from reading your posts the two things as fragile as spun sugar in LDS thought are “free will choice” (it is so fragile one might think it impossible to maintain) and the Holy Ghost whose temerity is evidenced by the list of things from which He flees.

 

[mwok]

Can anyone explain to me when JS ascended to heaven, and was it like Jesus Christ’s ascension?

 

[ParkerD]

Can anyone explain to me when JS ascended to heaven, and was it like Jesus Christ’s ascension?

MWOK,

Presumably you’re asking about the words of the poem/hymn by W W Phelps.

“Heaven” in that use of the word would mean the spirit world, not the eventual “heaven” that comes after the resurrection. A spirit who had died “ascends to heaven” by “returning to the presence of God”–but as a spirit they would be in the spirit world until their resurrection.

So the ascension of the Savior was a totally different use of the word “ascend” than how the word was used by W W Phelps in his poem.

 

[mwok]

MWOK,

Presumably you’re asking about the words of the poem/hymn by W W Phelps.

You are correct in your presumtion. Can you explain what this hymn means?

 

[ParkerD]

You are correct in your presumtion. Can you explain what this hymn means?

mwok,

Poetry sometimes uses language that fits a rhyming pattern and may not make perfect sense, so although I don’t know what lines you are referring to since I already explained “ascended to heaven”, it might help to know that W W Phelps had at one time left the church, but asked JS’ forgiveness later for having turned against him personally, and was forgiven by JS and thus when JS was killed, W W Phelps had strong feelings of praise toward him.

“Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain” means that in the spirit world, he would be beyond where they could fight him.

“Plan for his brethren” means that the Latter-day Saint belief is that prophets such as Abraham, Elijah, Peter and modern prophets, have a role in the spirit world of being a leader and of helping get records ready that have to do with preparing for and recording properly the temple work for kindred dead.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

The post that you called “mathematical gyrations” dealt with answering a question about “how powerful” God is and how seemingly “weak” Christ would be perceived for there to have been an apostasy, which logic I of course don’t agree with at all.

Parker,

Someone suggested that the ‘god’ described by Joseph Smith (i.e. the LDS ‘Jesus’, who apparently totally failed to fulfill his main mission in coming to earth as a man, to establish the one true church, not once, but twice) would seem to be a very weak ‘god’ that couldn’t even keep his promises to us after at least two attempts. So, you felt obliged to respond to that statement by doing all of those calculations to try to prove, “My god’s better than your God, and I can prove it with my awesome math skills!”? Did you really expect anyone here to take any of those ‘numbers’ of yours as a serious response, worthy of admiration? I’m sorry if we weren’t all that easily impressed by your grand theories and mathematical gymnastics being presented as facts. No offense, but it seemed like it was just more of the typical ‘smoke & mirrors’, meant to deflect attention from your refusal to actually respond with an intelligent argument that was really pertinent to the question.

Christ is there for everyone, including for those in the spirit world and for those who haven’t found Him yet who live on this earth. The word “church” means “congregation of believers”.

Yes, Jesus Christ is there for everyone, including all those who have already passed over the veil (that’s why he “descended into hell”… to preach the ‘good news’ of the Gospel to the ones who were already waiting for Him in the “Bosom of Abraham”). With that I agree, wholeheartedly. The Church that Jesus Christ founded is much more than just a “congregation of believers”, it’s also His Bride, that He has vowed to protect from all harm, forever.

To me, figuring out “success” of the plan of salvation would have to do with “how many souls come unto Christ”–which I don’t consider a “numbers game” at all. If each soul is truly considered equally important (which I believe with all my heart), then that is not a “numbers game”. That means God loves each and every soul ever born on this earth, and continues to do that and will do that during the upcoming Millenium. Just because people can be counted, does not make each one less singly important.

You were the one that turned the whole plan of salvation into a numbers game, not me. There is no way to ever prove that any of those numbers are relevant to anything, any more than you could prove the theory of relativity by using a bobbin and a screwdriver.

The Millenium will see world peace, and a decrease or an elimination of disease as we know it, so the numbers that may have seemed astronomically large, are not unrealistic for an eight or nine hundred year period of righteous, unified people living on the earth. (I was surprised no Catholic responded with an expectation about the number of righteous people during the Millenium under Catholic expectations of what that worldwide peace will bring to the world.)

Your perception of what constitutes the ‘millennium’ is something for another discussion in another thread, but it’s also completely irrelevant to this discussion, so using it as some kind of an excuse for some of your calculations being a bit ‘off’ is not really helping you. It has nothing to do with the question you were supposed to be answering.

I used the words “group think” having to do not with beliefs, but with an attitude that looks for support from others while at the same time poking fun at one person or at a “few people” who in this case don’t share the same beliefs as the “group”. Christ didn’t teach that kind of approach to living in a world where people have differing beliefs. Neither did the apostles.

As I already said, my ‘poking fun’ was completely unrelated to religious beliefs of any kind. I was laughing at the preposterous mathematical theory that you pulled right out of the ether. I’m sure JS would be quite proud of that one, though.

So I hope I have clarified a little more. Wishing peace to all readers.

I assure you, it’s still just as clear as mud, to me.

 

[mwok]

mwok,

Poetry sometimes uses language that fits a rhyming pattern and may not make perfect sense, so although I don’t know what lines you are referring to since I already explained “ascended to heaven”, it might help to know that W W Phelps had at one time left the church, but asked JS’ forgiveness later for having turned against him personally, and was forgiven by JS and thus when JS was killed, W W Phelps had strong feelings of praise toward him.

“Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain” means that in the spirit world, he would be beyond where they could fight him.

“Plan for his brethren” means that the Latter-day Saint belief is that prophets such as Abraham, Elijah, Peter and modern prophets, have a role in the spirit world of being a leader and of helping get records ready that have to do with preparing for and recording properly the temple work for kindred dead.

LDS HYMN #27 “PRAISE TO THE MAN”

1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.

Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.

1. Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.

1. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

1. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “brother Joseph” again.

I’m sorry, in the context of the hymn as a whole I don’t see your explanations for the hymn. Any other sources that may have spoken/written on this hymn?

 

[ParkerD]

I’m sorry, in the context of the hymn as a whole I don’t see your explanations for the hymn. Any other sources that may have spoken/written on this hymn?

mwok,

Using Google, I found the following that may explain whatever it is you’re looking for about the meaning of the words to the hymn, Praise to the Man:

mormonapologeticstudies.org/tag/praise-to-the-man/

To the writer of post 361 if you happen to read this and happen to have read an earlier response that I reluctantly provided:

Why I singled out that post was only the use of the words “He is not a liar either”–not the rest of that post.

Peace and good Sabbath, all.

 

[mwok]

mwok,

Using Google, I found the following that may explain whatever it is you’re looking for about the meaning of the words to the hymn, Praise to the Man:

mormonapologeticstudies.org/tag/praise-to-the-man/

While I couldn’t access the site you provided I did find some interesting things said about the hymn. Like that one of the phrases was changed from “Stain Illinois” to “Plead unto heaven”. I also heard that because of that hymn and one other, Mormons are said to give a special veneration to JS akin to the veneration we Catholics show Mary.

 

[ParkerD]

While I couldn’t access the site you provided I did find some interesting things said about the hymn. Like that one of the phrases was changed from “Stain Illinois” to “Plead unto heaven”. I also heard that because of that hymn and one other, Mormons are said to give a special veneration to JS akin to the veneration we Catholics show Mary.

mwok,

Since the Latter-day Saints don’t consider JS as perfect, and for many other reasons, I would think more along the lines of a “veneration” akin to veneration for the prophets Jeremiah, Isaiah, Elijah, and the apostle John. It’s kind of like how Peter spoke of Moses after the Mount of Transfiguration experience with the Savior.

Wishing peace and a good day.

 

[catholic-rcia]

mwok,

Using Google, I found the following that may explain whatever it is you’re looking for about the meaning of the words to the hymn, Praise to the Man:

mormonapologeticstudies.org/tag/praise-to-the-man/

Peace and good Sabbath, all.

I went to the link you provided Parker. What and who is a Martyr? This is what I took away from it as my thoughts went right to those I have come to know. The Holy Spirit led me to this Priest.

After the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939, St. Maximilian and a number of the friars were arrested for their activities in media evangelization. The Nazis stripped Niepokalonow of everything of value while the friars that remained spent their time caring for refugees. After several months, St. Maximilian and the other friars were released. Despite a ban on Kolbe’s publications, he managed to convince the Nazis to allow a final printing of one of the magazines in 1940. During this period of oppression, the friars turned to Eucharistic Adoration as their primary apostolate. In February of 1941, the Nazis arrested him again, and ordered him to the concentration camp at Auschwitz. He was given the registration number 16670.
In late July 1941, a prisoner escaped from St. Maximilian’s barracks. In retaliation, the Nazis selected ten prisoners to starve to death. One of the ten, Polish Sergeant Francis Gajowniczek, cried out in agony over the fate of his family without a father. To the astonishment of prisoners and captors, Maximilian stepped forward from the ranks and stood before the Commandant.
The commandant asked, “What does this Polish pig want?”
Father Kolbe pointed to the Polish sergeant, saying, “I am a Catholic priest. I would like to take his place, because he has a wife and children.”
The commandant stood silent for a moment, and then allowed Gajowniczek to return to the other men while Father Kolbe took his place.
Maximilian then entered the starvation chamber with nine other men. He spent the last two weeks of his life encouraging his nine companions by praying and singing hymns with them in the block 13 starvation bunker.
On August 14, 1941, the vigil of the feast of the Assumption, Maximilian was one of four prisoners still alive. His impatient captors executed him by means of a lethal injection of carbolic acid and burned his body in the crematorium. Saint Maximilian’s Feast Day is August 14.
Pope John Paul II canonized Maximilian Kolbe on 10 October 1982 as a Martyr of Charity and “patron saint of our difficult century.”
Seargeant Francis Gajowniczek survived World War II and spent the rest of his life touring the world speaking about the man who saved his life. He was present at St. Maximilian’s canonization. He died in 1995. From: marytown.com/default.aspx?id=63

Meditation: True charity always places the needs of others ahead of our own because true charity sees Christ himself mirrored in the face of others. May Maximilian’s total love for God and neighbor always through the Immaculata #characterize our own approach to Christ in others.

 

[Telstar]

I’m sorry, in the context of the hymn as a whole I don’t see your explanations for the hymn. Any other sources that may have spoken/written on this hymn?

I’ve seen this song before (and heard the motab sing it), and it’s always disturbed me. I first looked it up when a couple of LDS friends were blubbering over how wonderful and uplifting it was, in a forum thread (different forum). Since it was hard to catch all the lyrics from the youtube video, I looked them up. Apparently, that’s what my friends were blubbering about. They said it was always so ‘moving and beautiful’ to hear it at one of their functions. I was flabbergasted by it, to say the least. Especially, the part about him being a ‘martyr’ that ‘ascended to heaven’. First of all, he was certainly no martyr, by any stretch of the imagination, and the audacity of thinking that he ‘ascended to heaven’, which would put him on the same level as Jesus, is appalling to even consider! :bigyikes:

I’m sorry, Parker, but your explanation of the line, ‘ascended to heaven’, just doesn’t cut it for me. When normal people die, their souls don’t ‘ascend’, anywhere. The only one that has ever ‘ascended to heaven’ is Jesus Christ, Body & Soul… under His Own power, and He did in front of a very large gathering of His closest followers. The Catholic Church believes that Mary was taken up into Heaven, body & soul, but she was ‘assumed’ into Heaven by the power of God. She did not ‘ascend’.*Definition of ASCEND: transitive verb
1: to go or move up *

When you ‘ascend a staircase’, do you do it under your own power, or does someone else do it for you? (I’m certainly not talking about an escalator, either, so don’t even try to go there. )

But, this is the part that disturbs me almost as much as the reference to his ‘ascension’. I’d like to know exactly what the “conflict of justice” is supposed to mean. Please, don’t try to whitewash it. In my mind, it seems to indicate that there will be some kind of future ‘event’, that will be an act of vengeance, performed in order to punish ‘the earth’ for ‘the blood of that man’. Is this something that Mormons believe will bring about the ‘millennium’ and establish the LDS ‘kingdom of god’ on earth, that you keep referring to? Does it reflect an actual physical battle that will be fought in the name of JS, to avenge his blood? Knowing that LDS are completely obsessed with politics here in the US, as well as in the rest of the world, makes this even more disturbing to me. :ehh:
4) Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “brother Joseph” again.