How do the Mormons do it?

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But, this is the part that disturbs me almost as much as the reference to his ‘ascension’. I’d like to know exactly what the “conflict of justice” is supposed to mean. Please, don’t try to whitewash it. In my mind, it seems to indicate that there will be some kind of future ‘event’, that will be an act of vengeance, performed in order to punish ‘the earth’ for ‘the blood of that man’. Is this something that Mormons believe will bring about the ‘millennium’ and establish the LDS ‘kingdom of god’ on earth, that you keep referring to? Does it reflect an actual physical battle that will be fought in the name of JS, to avenge his blood? Knowing that LDS are completely obsessed with politics here in the US, as well as in the rest of the world, makes this even more disturbing to me. :ehh:
4) Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “brother Joseph” again.
Telstar,

No need to “whitewash” anything, since the Book of Mormon is clear that “it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished”.

Mormon 4:5

5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.

The Latter-day Saints believe the gospel of peace is really the gospel of peace, and that one should really love their enemies and to good to them that persecute and act with despite.

Matthew 5: 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

“Wake up the world for the conflict of justice” has to do with the same thing that Paul wrote about:

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Also the Savior’s warning:

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
 
Telstar,

No need to “whitewash” anything, since the Book of Mormon is clear that “it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished”.

Mormon 4:5

5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.

The Latter-day Saints believe the gospel of peace is really the gospel of peace, and that one should really love their enemies and to good to them that persecute and act with despite.

Matthew 5: 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

“Wake up the world for the conflict of justice” has to do with the same thing that Paul wrote about:

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Also the Savior’s warning:

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Your perspective conveniently ignores Revelations 22:18-19

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
 
Your perspective conveniently ignores Revelations 22:18-19

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
TS Krobacz,

I assume you are referring to the Book of Mormon, which was sent into the world fulfilling the prophecy of John the Revelator in Revelation 14:6-7 and fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah in Isaiah 29:4 and 29:18-19.

To me “adds to them” or “takes away from the words” has to do with changing the meaning of the prophecies and the teachings. There are some very clear teachings that have been “taken away from” by lessening the impact of their meaning having to do with becoming like Christ and inheriting a joint throne with Him. See Revelation 3:21 and Revelation 21:6-7. The adversary has had influence in changing those meanings, because it changes an understanding of the purpose of this life, which is described in Revelation 3:18-20.

Another example of a significant change in meaning is found by reading Revelation 3:7 and comparing with Isaiah 22:21-23 and realizing that both of those prophecies are speaking specifically about the Savior, the Son of David, and that the key of David refers to the Savior having power to “open, and none shall shut”, and “shut, and none shall open”. If anyone has changed that meaning to mean someone other than the Savior, then it’s clear to me that they haven’t paid attention to the warning you noted that John was inspired to give about the meaning of the prophecies he gave by revelation to the world.

John also prophesied that a “beast” would have “power” “given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Revelation 13:9) He warned, “If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
That power was temporary, not permanent, but that prophecy tied to the prophecy in Revelation 12:13-14 and 17. It also tied to the prophecy in Revelation 14:6-8.

So when an angel came to earth “having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people”, then for people to take notice of that everlasting gospel and rejoice in its teachings, should not be viewed as a bad thing.

I should also add a clarification about the post you responded to, since I hadn’t had time to make note of the sources of the words of Paul because I just had a minute to briefly respond.

Here are the sources that I had left out of that post:

2 Thessalonians 2:8, 1 Corinthians 3:13, and for the words of the Savior, Luke 17:26-30.

Wishing you peace, and a good day.
 
mwok,

Using Google, I found the following that may explain whatever it is you’re looking for about the meaning of the words to the hymn, Praise to the Man:

mormonapologeticstudies.org/tag/praise-to-the-man/

To the writer of post 361 if you happen to read this and happen to have read an earlier response that I reluctantly provided:

Why I singled out that post was only the use of the words “He is not a liar either”–not the rest of that post.

Peace and good Sabbath, all.
Thank you for clarifying that the rest of my response was not included in your “group think” definition, but do know that the “He is not a liar either” comment was a part of the exegesis that I was writing about. I believe that HE did not lie about having to eat His flesh and drink His blood. In the same way that any other statement by the Savior regarding what is needed to enter the Kingdom of God was true as well. This is not any form of “group think”, but rather a blatant statement to call attention to the fact that Jesus would not lead us astray. Jesus is trurh, not the father of lies. 👍
 
Telstar,

No need to “whitewash” anything, since the Book of Mormon is clear that “it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished”.

Mormon 4:5

5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.

The Latter-day Saints believe the gospel of peace is really the gospel of peace, and that one should really love their enemies and to good to them that persecute and act with despite.

Matthew 5: 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

“Wake up the world for the conflict of justice” has to do with the same thing that Paul wrote about:

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Also the Savior’s warning:

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
No offense, Parker, but none of that really answers my questions or concerns about these lines:
4) **Sacrifice **brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “brother Joseph” again.
From what I’ve seen from you and other Mormons, on this forum and others, your definitions and interpretations of the meaning of the true scriptures of the Bible, and the LDS writings, are never what would be obvious to anyone else who may be reading them. It seems that you’re not willing to give a real response without quoting them, knowing very well that our interpretations of their meaning may be vastly different. So, I guess I’ll just have to wait and see what happens. But, thanks for taking the time to post a response, even if it still left me feeling uneasy about those lines. 😉
 
mwok,

Since the Latter-day Saints don’t consider JS as perfect, and for many other reasons, I would think more along the lines of a “veneration” akin to veneration for the prophets Jeremiah, Isaiah, Elijah, and the apostle John. It’s kind of like how Peter spoke of Moses after the Mount of Transfiguration experience with the Savior.

Wishing peace and a good day.
This is the company line, but it isn’t true. People joining the LDS Church are not asked to profess belief in Jeremiah, Isaiah, Elijah, Moses, or John before they are baptized; that is, before they are supposedly born again in Christ.

No, prospective Mormons are asked to profess belief that “the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith” and that they believe that the current Church President is a “prophet of God.”

The baptisimal interview doesn’t require a single question about scripture, Biblical prophets, or even the Book of Mormon. It does require a question about belief in Joseph Smith and in the current Church President.

The LDS Church requires a profession of faith in Joseph Smith and in the current Church President before it will allow you to be born of the water and of the Spirit. In short, it puts Joseph and the current Church President between a prospective Mormon and the ordinance intended for rebirth in Christ.

As a matter of Mormon discourse, I agree that Mormons protest that they do not worship Joseph Smith. They always pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

However, as a philosophical matter, Mormons stand belief in Joseph Smith between a person and rebirth in Christ, and this opens them to accusations that Joseph Smith receives special veneration (in terms of the baptisimal interview, he does).

There is also the practical matter of LDS correlation, which has removed any critical fact about Joseph Smith from generations of official manuals, and which has led to unrealistic discussions of him that have been internalized. “Follow the prophet” has been reinforced to an absurd degree. Certainly any Mormon who speaks up with a critical fact about Joseph risks, at the very least, rolling eyes, and will likely be subjected to scrutiny.

I wish you well.
 
I assume you are referring to the Book of Mormon, which was sent into the world fulfilling the prophecy of John the Revelator in Revelation 14:6-7 and fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah in Isaiah 29:4 and 29:18-19.
Apocalypse 14:[6] And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people: [7] Saying with a loud voice: Fear the Lord, and give him honour, because the hour of his judgment is come; and adore ye him, that made heaven and earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters.
That vision shows that the true gospel (the Bible) will be preached to all nations and people by the true Church, established by Jesus Christ, and has nothing to do with the BoM or the LDS. I also hope you realize that the Apocalypse is not just a book of prophecy, but a description of the whole history of salvation, from the beginning to the end (Jesus = the Alpha and the Omega = salvation). That chapter of Isaias refers to the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, and their subsequent punishment. It shows that the Word will then be given to the Gentiles, instead, who will be the new chosen people of God.
To me “adds to them” or “takes away from the words” has to do with changing the meaning of the prophecies and the teachings. There are some very clear teachings that have been “taken away from” by lessening the impact of their meaning having to do with becoming like Christ and inheriting a joint throne with Him. See Revelation 3:21 and Revelation 21:6-7. The adversary has had influence in changing those meanings, because it changes an understanding of the purpose of this life, which is described in Revelation 3:18-20.
The only meanings of the Bible that have been ‘changed’ are the ones that Joseph Smith (and others like him) reinterpreted, or completely made up, in order to entice people to follow him, instead of the true faith. I do agree that the “adversary” has had a great influence in that happening, ever since the Church began.
Another example of a significant change in meaning is found by reading Revelation 3:7 and comparing with Isaiah 22:21-23 and realizing that both of those prophecies are speaking specifically about the Savior, the Son of David, and that the key of David refers to the Savior having power to “open, and none shall shut”, and “shut, and none shall open”. If anyone has changed that meaning to mean someone other than the Savior, then it’s clear to me that they haven’t paid attention to the warning you noted that John was inspired to give about the meaning of the prophecies he gave by revelation to the world.
Everyone here knows that those verses refer to Jesus as the holder of the keys of Heaven, but we also know that He gave them to Peter and his successors, until Jesus returns to judge the world. If you’re implying that only Jesus can ever hold those keys, then why do LDS believe that Joseph Smith ever held them, or that he still holds them?
Matthew 16:[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
***Nothing, and no one, ***will ever prevail against the true Church, established by Jesus when He walked the earth in the flesh. Anyone who stands against His true Church, stands in opposition to Him, and will have to answer to Him for all of their actions taken against it.
John also prophesied that a “beast” would have “power” “given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Revelation 13:9) He warned, “If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
That power was temporary, not permanent, but that prophecy tied to the prophecy in Revelation 12:13-14 and 17. It also tied to the prophecy in Revelation 14:6-8.
The ‘beast’ in that prophecy is a worldly government that will be set up by men that will claim it to be the ‘kingdom of god’ on earth. No one has the power to set up such a government, nor to make that claim, except Jesus, Himself. That will never happen until after the world is destroyed, and finally ends. Then He will come to judge every soul, and will establish the true Kingdom of God on the new earth, where He will reign, forever.
So when an angel came to earth “having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people”, then for people to take notice of that everlasting gospel and rejoice in its teachings, should not be viewed as a bad thing.
I’m sorry to say this so bluntly, but the ‘vision’ that you are referring to was not the fulfillment of any of the scriptures that you quoted, above. IMHO, that was the sad delusion of a young man with a very confused soul, who had no one to help him interpret what he saw (if he ever really saw anything at all). If he had someone to trust, that could help him, he would not have been so easily led astray. And, if he had not been dabbling in the occult, he could have avoided the whole situation, entirely.

The ‘adversary’ uses the things of the occult (peepstones, etc.), in order to further confuse those who are not well grounded in their faith. That’s why it’s never good to use things like the Ouija board, tarot cards, or anything of the like to find answers to their questions, especially concerning God. Those things are all evil, and will only return evil thoughts to those that believe in them.
 
If you’re implying that only Jesus can ever hold those keys, then why do LDS believe that Joseph Smith ever held them, or that he still holds them?..
We don’t. He held different keys than those. Only the Savior holds those keys, and “the government shall be upon His shoulder.”

I noticed you provided “how the Catholics do it”, so that is just fine with me that those ideas you presented are how they do it.
 
We don’t. He held different keys than those. Only the Savior holds those keys, and “the government shall be upon His shoulder.”

I noticed you provided “how the Catholics do it”, so that is just fine with me that those ideas you presented are how they do it.
You say that JS held different keys, but what I find is that the way they’ve been described in the past from many LDS quotes, they are claimed to be the same exact keys that Jesus gave to Peter. There is only one set of keys, even though there are many keys on the keyring. Each one opens a different ‘door’ in the House of God. Jesus’ actions are very clear to all that read that passage. He is the Master of His House (Church), Who was very well aware that He would soon be returning to His Father in Heaven. So, just as any master of the house would give his keys to the head steward when he had to travel far away from home, Jesus said that when He had to leave, He would give the keys of His House to Peter the Rock, until He returned. Those keys have never left the hands of the ‘head steward’ (Pope) of the Church. They are passed to the next ‘keeper of the keys’, when the Pope dies. It’s always been that way, for the past 2000 years. They signify the Authority of Christ’s Church to carry out the mission given to it, by Jesus, Himself.

I’m sorry, but I have no clue what you’re referring to in your last sentence. “How the Catholics do…” what? What I wrote in most of that post, especially some of the interpretations of scripture, was mostly my personal opinion based on Catholic belief. I never stated that any of it was the ‘official Catholic teaching’ of the Church, although I don’t think anything that I stated contradicts Catholic teaching (but, I could be wrong). You’d have to go to the Vatican website, or the Catechism, if you want to know the official position on anything that the Church, specifically, teaches. So, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Maybe you could elaborate on which part of that GWOT (giant wall of text) your comment refers to? 🤷
 
You say that JS held different keys, but what I find is that the way they’ve been described in the past from many LDS quotes, they are claimed to be the same exact keys that Jesus gave to Peter. There is only one set of keys, even though there are many keys on the keyring. Each one opens a different ‘door’ in the House of God. Jesus’ actions are very clear to all that read that passage…Those keys have never left the hands of the ‘head steward’ (Pope) of the Church. They are passed to the next ‘keeper of the keys’, when the Pope dies. It’s always been that way, for the past 2000 years. They signify the Authority of Christ’s Church to carry out the mission given to it, by Jesus, Himself.

I’m sorry, but I have no clue what you’re referring to in your last sentence. “How the Catholics do…” what? What I wrote in most of that post, especially some of the interpretations of scripture, was mostly my personal opinion based on Catholic belief. I never stated that any of it was the ‘official Catholic teaching’ of the Church, although I don’t think anything that I stated contradicts Catholic teaching (but, I could be wrong). You’d have to go to the Vatican website, or the Catechism, if you want to know the official position on anything that the Church, specifically, teaches. So, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Maybe you could elaborate on which part of that GWOT (giant wall of text) your comment refers to?
Telstar,

The way Catholics view the keys given to Peter is significantly different than the way Latter-day Saints view the keys given to Peter, or what those keys represented as the authority to preside in the priesthood on earth and to receive revelation that impacts the members of the church.

But the key described in Revelation 3:7 and Isaiah 22:21-23 is very clearly the key that opens the doors or “gates” for either getting into heaven (one door) or getting “out of the prison” (another separate door–see Isaiah 61:1-2). Only Christ bears the key to those doors, through His atoning sacrifice (represented by “a nail in a sure place”) and the knowledge that He is our Advocate with the Father, meaning we would need to accept His advocacy in order for Him to be our Advocate, which He desires to be for each of us.

I appreciate your candidness regarding your opinions. What I meant was that those statements show “how you think” which is another way of looking at the title of this thread, only reversing the roles. I realize it is expressing personal opinions, but personal opinions lead to how one lives their life, and how they make religious decisions in their life.
 
Mormonism is so chock full of both historical and theological falsehoods that it isn’t even funny. I hope and pray for the conversion of Mormons to Catholicism. The Truth is not found in Mormonism. It is only found in Catholicism!
 
Mormonism is so chock full of both historical and theological falsehoods that it isn’t even funny. I hope and pray for the conversion of Mormons to Catholicism. The Truth is not found in Mormonism. It is only found in Catholicism!
Which, again, shows “how the Catholics do it”. The shoe can always be seen to be “on the other foot”, depending on one’s point of view and which shoe they look at.
 
My take is that Mormon faith is faith despite the available evidence. Catholic faith is faith that is consistent with the available evidence. Mormon faith is, therefore, irrational and purely emotion-based ("I have a testimony, it feels good, it feels right, I can feel the spirit, it feels like a burning in my bosom, etc. etc.).
 
Telstar,

The way Catholics view the keys given to Peter is significantly different than the way Latter-day Saints view the keys given to Peter, or what those keys represented as the authority to preside in the priesthood on earth and to receive revelation that impacts the members of the church.

But the key described in Revelation 3:7 and Isaiah 22:21-23 is very clearly the key that opens the doors or “gates” for either getting into heaven (one door) or getting “out of the prison” (another separate door–see Isaiah 61:1-2). Only Christ bears the key to those doors, through His atoning sacrifice (represented by “a nail in a sure place”) and the knowledge that He is our Advocate with the Father, meaning we would need to accept His advocacy in order for Him to be our Advocate, which He desires to be for each of us.

I appreciate your candidness regarding your opinions. What I meant was that those statements show “how you think” which is another way of looking at the title of this thread, only reversing the roles. I realize it is expressing personal opinions, but personal opinions lead to how one lives their life, and how they make religious decisions in their life.
Well, Parker,

You are certainly free to choose to follow what the LDS church teaches, but the truth is that the Pope holds all of those keys, and more. Jesus didn’t just give Peter one or two of them, He gave all of them to him, thus the use of the plural ‘keys’ in Jesus’ words.
“Matthew 16:[19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.”
“The keys of the kingdom of Heaven” means the keys to all of its gates, and the power to decide who goes in and who cannot enter. The Doctrines and Dogmas of the Church are the ‘blueprint’ that guides us in all that we need to do to go to Heaven, through the teachings of the Catechism.

The Apostolic priesthood, instituted by Jesus, has continued throughout the past 2000 years by the ‘laying on of hands’, through the action of Bishops performing the Sacrament of Holy Orders on all Priests. Each one becomes a Priest as if Jesus had laid hands on him, Himself (which He does by the hands of the Bishops), because there is no break in that long line of succession. But, the power to do all of that comes directly from Jesus Christ. He is still the Head of the Church, and always will be. He has entrusted all of His Own power to Peter and his successors, during His physical ‘absence’ from the earth. His spiritual Presence is always with us, through the Holy Spirit and the Holy Eucharist (technically, even His physical Presence is still with us in the Holy Eucharist). He will never abandon us.

The holding of the keys also includes the full authority of the Church, by the permission of the Pope (who gives it the Authority through the action of the keys), to interpret scripture for all Christians. The Church exercised that power when it gathered together all of the scriptures, to form the full Bible that all Christian churches use today, except those who rebelled against the Church in the 16th century. They later ***removed ***certain books that were part of the original for over 1200 years (i.e. the KJV). If anyone ‘changed’ the official word of God, it was not the Catholic Church. The Church takes holy scripture very seriously because it will be held accountable by Jesus if it is ever corrupted (which the Catholic Bible has not been). It’s her duty to protect it because it’s a critical part of the foundation of our salvation, along with Holy Tradition, as passed down from the Apostles. Therefore, the Catholic Church never takes any of those things lightly.
 
Michael, I read somewhere (sorry I don’t have the source right now) that Catholics are obligated to believe in a literal Adam and Eve and that they fell and that we all descended from them. Regarding the science side of it… I dont know, I took biology classes in university and I would not say it “disproved” anything in our faith. I wouldn’t say the contradictory points in science are facts, but still theories held together by a philosophy. There’s much we dont know yet from a scientific perspective…
Sorry to take this long a time to reply Monica; I was away from the site for several weeks now. But I clearly understand your point about Catholics being required or obligated to believe in a literal Adam and Eve. It’s a very complex issue, but since you are so sincere in your reply to my post I feel ‘obligated’ (happily) to answer you to the best of my ability.

In my opinion, change takes place in the Church’s promulgations and official acceptance of new evidence often very slowly. (As a case in point is the teaching on Hell. We now hold officially that Hell is a place where a person can go only if that person fully consents to it with full knowledge of what it is: i.e., only if they want to go there). Yet you will find scores of posts on this and other websites talking about people going to hell against their will. These reflect older, or antiquated beliefs of hell.)

So in the case of ENUMA ELISH, the ‘polytheistic’ Babylonian myth, which was adapted by the Jews to meet their ‘monotheistic’ needs, we have a case of new evidence that is very important but nevertheless ‘earth shattering.’ Being logical, and (especially in the computer age) sequential people, we naturally chain our thinking back to a ‘prime mover’, which in this case is still God, the originator of the universe, but who can no longer be founded by Adam and Eve. There may or may not have been an Adam and Eve, the parents of us all, or this is likely a fictional mythical adaptation. Change comes around the bend by people being exposed to the truth. Once the truth takes root, it spreads to others. I can’t tell others what to believe; but I know that when I heard the truth about the myth, I felt much relieved. Goodbye to the tyranny of myth and rewritten stories, now I can think freely about the gospel truths as I ponder them in my life–and most of what Jesus taught exposes (in my opinion) the foolishness of trying to command and track down the truth as if it were an animal to be hunted, trapped, killed, and fed upon. By saying it all hinges upon Adam and Eve is like saying you die when your grandparents die, because their death kills your parents, which in turn kills you and your future children–so really why say we are all dead because none of us (that I know of) knows his or her great great great grandparents etc. The question for me is: do I derive any benefit from the death of Adam and Eve, or, inversely, if they never died, do I lose anything? God is still God, Jesus remains his only Son.

The Stoics of ancient Greece and Rome held a supreme God which they derived from natural harmony and by their own logic. If earthquakes and famines do come, and natural harmony is destroyed on earth, and people lose their sense of existential principles, God remains a reality.

However, a major implication for this infringement on Babylonian copyrights is really in the impact it will ultimately have on politics. The Jews, who remain a chosen people of God, have no longer any tenable claim to natural God birth. It is clear that all people were created by evolution (more on that part of your reply in a moment), and all created equally. We are all chosen by God, and all equally. This renewal of truth by the exposure of the myth is, again, in my opinion (though not exclusively mine, of course)-- is a both a great potential boon for world peace and a new context for Paul’s gospel, where Jews are of “the original nature”. I have long thought that under certain circumstances this problem of “Jew first, then Greek,” has been the substantive cause of antisemitism. Especially true when it is used to imply that Christians are slaves of all Jews on account of Christ’s adherence to and birth under Jewish law. Paul also talks about certain people “getting what they deserve,” but that must not be any consolation for the innocent who suffer because of their group’s promoters of war. If the these certain Jews would only give up their ‘inheritance’ now rendered worthless as a result of ENUMA ELISH, perhaps people everywhere would respect peace without feeling the implied Paulian inferiority of adoption as opposed to the Jewish ‘natural’ birth.

Evolution, the other arm of this piece, can be observed in other species besides humans. The Church, again in RCIA, promotes to it’s adults the benefit of the theory of evolution. Perhaps the introduction of ENUMA ELISH is the Church’s way of feeding us soft, baby food before opening the doors to full truth and teaching evolution in religious instruction. Putting Adam and Eve in myth realm seems to me to be the equivalent of opening up the door to “Then where did we come from inquiries?” If not from evolution, then where?
 
You will quit debating with mormons if you knew their doctrine.

Really there is nothing to debate.
I don’t know if you will continue debating with someone calling himself Christian and accepting the idea that our Blessed Virgin Mary actually had sex with Lord the Father himself. This is what one of their prophets (so since it was a prophets what said was inspired from the Holy Ghost so was the truth) This is what stated Bringham Young in one of his speech. Of course it is not thought in their class, and not many of them know it, but if they would like to know the truth and go and read all the journals of speeches and the history of the church they will find out many, many things and this blasphemy too.

And I am sure that even reading this blasphemy they wouldn’t feel anything bad about it since The Lord has a body of flesh a bones like us.
May the Lord forgive me just because I wrote this blasphemy and when I think about it I really cry.

If before being killed you would kill at least two people knowbody in christianity would call you a martyr. This was how their Joseph Smith died as a martyr. They can go and check in the history of the church, but many of them don’t even know it. They don’t even know that their prophet before being killed was running to became president of united states.

Maybe you don’t even know that for mormons Lord the father has a body of flesh a bones like us and that He lives in (or near, this I don’t remember) a planet called Kolob.

that Bringham Young (the second prophet) said the sun was habited and the moon too by some kind of creatures.

There are so many things that if you all would know you want debate anything with mormons, just because there is nothing to debate. An abyss separe mormonism from Christianity.

I keep just not understanding why they pretend to be called christians.
Their Christ, their Lord the father and their Holy Ghost are completely different in natures,
their goal is completely different (they want to become Gods that will continue to have sexual relations with their wifes to populates others planets)

they don’t even feel the holyness of none of the Christian saints but they feel their holyness since they are saints. It is like me saying I feel I am a Saint but I don’t feel any saintity in St. George or St. Seraphim or St. Francisc for a catholic.
 
The whole point of this thread is really about asking someone to be reasonable in the context of Mormon belief. There is a comment from someone around you can really make that reason argument for all religions.

I am not a catholic. I am a Christian. But the point I want to make that there are somethings I believe in that just sound unreasonable to people, and we are fooling ourselves to think otherwise. That is why the attempt of disproving certain Mormon beliefs by reason is not practical in many cases. For example, I believe in:

1.) a Talking Snake in the Garden
2.) a talking donkey on the road.
3.) a parting Red Sea.
4.) A Virgin Birth
5.) a Resurrection from the Dead
6.) Healing miracles of Jesus, either of himself or through apostles

An Athiest can easily look at me as unreasonable by logic. But there are somethings that the Lord does beyond our comprehension. And it is ok, to have a God that knows more than what I can reason.

It is only through a Gospel of repentance from Sin and forgiveness through the Body Blood of Jesus Christ that a heart can be changed. We may be able to change some minds through our own cleverness, but only Jesus can change the heart of an unbeliever.
So it would appear that you do understand the miracles of God and reject transubstantiation as symbol. You are choosing to believe and not believe. That is what transubstantiation is…a choice to believe that Christ meant what he said. You chose otherwise. To believe it is a symbol is a step in the right direction. Your choice.👍
 
Which, again, shows “how the Catholics do it”. The shoe can always be seen to be “on the other foot”, depending on one’s point of view and which shoe they look at.
Ok then, lets test the spirit!

Humanae Vitae(HV) VS. Continuing Revelation(CR)

CR:
Emma compains of smoking and drinking in her house-Word of Wisdom

Joseph prophesies that the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri within his own generation-Failed

US Government puts pressure on Mormons to stop polygamy- Polygamy no longer practiced

Pressure to ordain African Americans to the priesthood- New revelation stating blacks can now hold the priesthood

HV:
Declared in 1968 when most of Pope Paul VI’s advisors said the Church should change its teachings on contraceptives in marriage

Infidelity and moral decline- I think most of us can agree that this statement is true, just watch tv or look through a magazine.

Lost respect for women- again just watch tv or look through a magazine. Also, men using women as a means to an end.

Abuse of power- Forced sterilization in 3rd world countries and the “One Child” policy in China

Unlimited Dominion- Some are so convinced that they have complete control over their bodies that the sterilize themselves, have abortions, change genders, etc,etc,etc.

And this was just ONE encyclical by ONE Pope.
The evils of contraception were true then and they are true now, why?
Because Peter led by the Holy Spirit said so!
 
Which, again, shows “how the Catholics do it”. The shoe can always be seen to be “on the other foot”, depending on one’s point of view and which shoe they look at.
I and others have raised some very significant issues in this thread and the majority of them have been ignored in favor of non responsive answers or outright exclusion via ignoring. If this is an invitation to use language that offends–well, it won’t happen qua intentional offense here. But I wonder if the LDS is serious about major points of theology or if it has just given up? This is aimed at no-one in particular, not even those who defend what we would consider the untenable, but rather at that part of the soul each of us has that acknowledges the truth in Catholic doctrine. The Church has not survived for some 2 millennium by any other means than the holy spirit; why would anyone reject that full and complete and final revelation in favor of something else not proven or witnessed or rooted in even the faintest kind of *unbroken, documentable *tradition?
 
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