How do the Mormons do it?

[Cowboy_Pete]

That’s another problem, and this can be added on to what I was just saying about how many former members of the LDS church are Atheist or Agnostic. It’s hard to always wonder “which God is the right God”. But, the members of the LDS church believe they are worshiping the same God the Protestants and Catholics are worshiping…just they know the entire “story” of God that the other churches don’t know. That’s a huge blow to the person who realizes the church isn’t true, and they wonder who God really is or what their purpose really is.

But thank you to all of the LDS members, and anyone in general, on this thread that has replied to me or tried to help me out in any way. I do appreciate it.

You’re welcome.

Also, please remember that many Jews don’t think that Catholics worship the God of Abraham. And that many Catholics (like mormons) who leave their church are Atheist or Agnostic. Secularization is not your friend either.

 

[Telstar]

Alwayswondering,

I suppose that I should answer your posts since one of them seems to have taken one of my comments as a precursor to what you had to say.

You could read Paul’s epistle to the Hebrews, and find in chapter 11 a great discourse about faith, and how faith comes in a way that is without “seeing” and with a sense of “not knowing” while yet believing the promises. Add to that Hebrews 8:11 where Paul quoted Jeremiah,

“And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.”

The idea of every person, including children, being able to “know the Lord” is because they become familiar with His voice, not that they see Him in person, and that they are able to distinguish between the fleeting, gushing feeling of a first love or of hearing a piece of music they like, and the burning fire of a constant awareness of the gentle and guiding and piercing, solid feeling of being guided or reminded by the Holy Ghost.

Also in Hebrews, one finds a key verse:

Hebrews 4:12

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Those who taught you weren’t meaning you were to be able to expect a one time prayer or a two time prayer to have an immediate answer. The New Testament doesn’t teach that kind of prayer and answer relationship. Prayer always needs to be coupled with patience, with diligence, with faith, with desire, with pleading and importuning, with figuring out what it is the person really deep-down wants so that their prayer really matches what they want through and through, and so that their mind and their outward words are aligned with their heart. That is how prayer works.

Wishing you peace, and peace to all readers.

Hello Parker,

I think we have a complete disconnect in understanding, here. The problem is not, and never has been, that Catholics are completely devoid, or unaware of, the workings of the Holy Spirit within themselves. Quite frankly, I find it extremely insulting for LDS to constantly imply that we are not lead by the Holy Spirit. The fact is that the Holy Spirit dwells within us more profoundly than in any others, because we consume the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. We’re also taught about the efficacy of prayer from the time we’re toddlers. But, we also know that depending on our own ‘feelings’ can lead us into grave error. That’s why we turn to the Church (through her Priests) to lead us in the right direction, which She has been doing very well for her children for nearly 2000 years. We’re very confident that She will never lead us astray. Seeing all of the very holy souls (Saints) that She has produced over all that time, is proof enough for me.

Several years ago, on another forum, there were a couple of LDS friends discussing their love and admiration for a certain passage in the BoM. The way they described it indicated that it was very inspirational to them. Since I didn’t know much about it at the time, I asked if there was somewhere I could read it, online. They gave me the passage they were referencing, and said it was available @ lds.org, so I went to read it to see what they found so inspirational about it. I have to say that I was extremely disappointed, at least. I certainly didn’t find it to be quite as profound as they had indicated it would be. I went into it fully expecting to have a similar reaction to what they were talking about (they were very obviously deeply affected by it, emotionally, according to their discussion).

Instead, I found it to be difficult to understand, mostly because of it’s overly dramatic descriptions, as well as being confusing because of the constantly repeated lines and phrases (such as threats of damnation and other punishments for anyone that failed to follow what it said) that, very often, were just being redundant (probably to instill fear into anyone that might not want to follow what it said). It also made me feel very anxious while I was reading it, for some reason. Instead of giving me a feeling of inspiration, it gave me an extremely uneasy feeling of dread. I’ve tried several more times, since then, to read different parts of it in the process of learning more about it, but I always seem to get the same anxiety, queasiness and feeling of dread from it, after reading a few pages, or even just a few paragraphs. I often had to reread passages several times over in order to make any sense of them, too. Even then, the real meaning often escaped me. (I really don’t think I’m that dense.)

While I admit that I’ve also had to reread certain passages of the Bible over again (I like the Douay-Rheims), because of the less familiar use of the old language, but I’ve never gotten a feeling of queasiness or dread while reading any of it. Not even from reading the Apocalypse, that seems to scare the heck out of most other people. The Bible always inspires me. Needless to say, I think I got quite the opposite of the ‘burning in the bosom’ that I should have gotten as proof of the BoM’s authenticity, since I was sincerely trying to find out what about it was so inspirational to my friends. I was actually embarrassed to tell them how I really felt about it, so I hope you won’t be offended by anything I just said. But, I suppose I’d make a pretty lousy Mormon.

I do hope you’re enjoying your Sunday, anyway.

 

[Naf623]

Quite frankly, I find it extremely insulting for LDS to constantly imply that we are not lead by the Holy Spirit.

You mean the same way we feel insulted when you keep referring to ‘the god of the Mormons’ suggesting we worship a different God than you believe you are, in addition to disrespectfully removing His capitalisation?
Perhaps you’re feeling a little of what I felt after my first post?

The fact is that the Holy Spirit dwells within us more profoundly than in any others, because we consume the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion.

Yes, many civilisations believed that cannibalisation gave them the strength of those they ate.
I know you won’t like the comment that bluntly, but let’s face it that’s certainly the way it sounds.

Seeing all of the very holy souls (Saints) that She has produced over all that time, is proof enough for me.

‘Saints’ recognised only by the Catholic church, and only from within it’s own number.

I found it to be difficult to understand… as well as being confusing

Never read Isaiah? Neither of those difficulties suggest in any way that The Book of Mormon is not true.

It also made me feel very anxious while I was reading it, for some reason. Instead of giving me a feeling of inspiration, it gave me an extremely uneasy feeling of dread. I’ve tried several more times, since then, to read different parts of it in the process of learning more about it, but I always seem to get the same anxiety, queasiness and feeling of dread from it, after reading a few pages, or even just a few paragraphs.

All feelings that Satan is fully able and perfectly willing to replicate at a moment’s notice. Only Satan would encourage us not to study and pray to discover the truth and validity of anything that we came across. These feelings are, as you have discovered, an extremely effective method that Satan uses to try and prevent perfectly sincere and devout people from doing things that they should. Joseph Smith came across the same when he prayed to God; he did not get his answer until he applied every fibre of his being to the effort of not giving in to it.

I was sincerely trying to find out what about it was so inspirational to my friends.

I do not doubt your sincerity, although I might question your purpose. We receive our witness (as pointed out by ParkerD above) when our true feelings, desires and intents of our heart match our words and perceived wishes. When we are not thinking “how could this fit into my life, please Lord help me learn where to put it in my nice view of the world”, and we start to think “please, Lord; this could turn my life and world completely upside down, I cannot see how I may change myself and my views and beliefs around so far as to include this in my life, but please if it be your will help me to do so”. Refer yourself to Jesus’ Intercessory Prayer in the garden at Gethsemane; He Himself wished that there was another way, that perhaps He could get around having to suffer so much; but by aligning His will completely with that of His (and our) Father in Heaven, An angel was sent to accompany Him and remind Him that His Father was still there with Him.
We may be asking sincerely to find out truth and validity, but if we are not clear within ourselves that even if it means completely turning our life around, despite what our family, friends and other members of our congregation at church will think of us, we will do it; then we are asking for advice we have no intention of taking, and so what use will it be to us?

 

[RebeccaJ]

There it is Telstar, the standard Mormon answer:

If you can’t believe in Mormonism, something is wrong with you, and you better get it straightened out.

And Mormons wonder why people view their religion as a cult.

 

[Naf623]

We are all led by the Holy Spirit, when we allow him. However, only one person is authorized to bind on earth what is in heaven and vise versa. Otherwise, why not just go on your own path towards Christ without claiming any name to your beliefs? In fact, why not take it to the extreme? Why read the Bible if you are led directly by the Holy Spirit? If what you are saying is true then the Gospels were just for the authors themselves as the Holy Spirit inspired them to write under inspiration. If what you are saying is true then I would not need to validate anyone’s authority as God knows me more than they would and sent His Spirit to guide me to Him? But, as it is Christ died for His Bride the Church and if I want to be considered a child of His cleaving to His Church then I must obey Her teachings and without fear because I know that Christ will never leave His Bride even if Her children apostasize.

Another point here; I still need the Bible, and still need the leadership of others, because I am far from being in tune with the Spirit to 1. Commune direct with The Lord to be taught everything I need to know direct from Him; and 2. Stay focussed enough on Him 24 hours a day without being editors and uplifted by the words I read there to focus my mind back to Him. However, nothing I read therein or am taught will I accept without the accompanying testimony from The Holy Spirit. Otherwise it would be far too easy to be led astray.

Well it’s certainly not evidence of presence is it?

I’m not using it as such, just making the point to people who claim that no evidence means something can’t exist.

 

[Naf623]

There it is Telstar, the standard Mormon answer:

If you can’t believe in Mormonism, something is wrong with you, and you better get it straightened out.

And Mormons wonder why people view their religion as a cult.

However, many of you seem to take great pride in frequently insinuating that there is something wrong with us for being LDS.

 

[RebeccaJ]

However, many of you seem to take great pride in frequently insinuating that there is something wrong with us for being LDS.

In regards to why you haven’t seen the Truth of Christ’s Church and left the falsehood of Mormonism; I don’t believe there is something wrong with you personally that isn’t the same wrongness of the entire human race. We are fallen, and need Jesus Christ.

There is a whole lot wrong with what your church teaches.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, many civilisations believed that cannibalisation gave them the strength of those they ate.
I know you won’t like the comment that bluntly, but let’s face it that’s certainly the way it sounds.

Hello, I’ve seen people banned for disrespect of the Real Presence; Jesus Present Body and Blood in the Eucharist. So, I’ll just jump in here, in your defense to the mods, to say, I said a similar thing to a Catholic friend, when I was an atheist. He returned the “compliment” by calling me a heathen. We were, at the time, good friends and so insults were taken in a friendly manner.

So, here I’ve come, from insulting my friend to receiving the Body of Jesus Christ at Mass today.

I’ll try to help you further, and explain to you, that we believe Jesus Christ when He taught that we “must eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, or there is no life in you”. When Jesus taught it, it was a hard thing to hear, and many disciples left at this teaching. I encourage you to not be one of them.

Peace.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, many civilisations believed that cannibalisation gave them the strength of those they ate.
I know you won’t like the comment that bluntly, but let’s face it that’s certainly the way it sounds.

The pagan Romans said the same thing about the first Christians, because the pagans did not understand the teaching of Jesus Christ. 2000 years later nothing has changed.

 

[ParkerD]

Hello Parker,

I think we have a complete disconnect in understanding, here. The problem is not, and never has been, that Catholics are completely devoid, or unaware of, the workings of the Holy Spirit within themselves. Quite frankly, I find it extremely insulting for LDS to constantly imply that we are not lead by the Holy Spirit. The fact is that the Holy Spirit dwells within us more profoundly than in any others, because we consume the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. We’re also taught about the efficacy of prayer from the time we’re toddlers. But, we also know that depending on our own ‘feelings’ can lead us into grave error. That’s why we turn to the Church (through her Priests) to lead us in the right direction, which She has been doing very well for her children for nearly 2000 years. We’re very confident that She will never lead us astray. Seeing all of the very holy souls (Saints) that She has produced over all that time, is proof enough for me.

Several years ago, on another forum, there were a couple of LDS friends discussing their love and admiration for a certain passage in the BoM. The way they described it indicated that it was very inspirational to them. Since I didn’t know much about it at the time, I asked if there was somewhere I could read it, online. They gave me the passage they were referencing, and said it was available @ lds.org, so I went to read it to see what they found so inspirational about it. I have to say that I was extremely disappointed, at least. I certainly didn’t find it to be quite as profound as they had indicated it would be. I went into it fully expecting to have a similar reaction to what they were talking about (they were very obviously deeply affected by it, emotionally, according to their discussion).

Instead, I found it to be difficult to understand, mostly because of it’s overly dramatic descriptions, as well as being confusing because of the constantly repeated lines and phrases (such as threats of damnation and other punishments for anyone that failed to follow what it said) that, very often, were just being redundant (probably to instill fear into anyone that might not want to follow what it said). It also made me feel very anxious while I was reading it, for some reason. Instead of giving me a feeling of inspiration, it gave me an extremely uneasy feeling of dread. I’ve tried several more times, since then, to read different parts of it in the process of learning more about it, but I always seem to get the same anxiety, queasiness and feeling of dread from it, after reading a few pages, or even just a few paragraphs. I often had to reread passages several times over in order to make any sense of them, too. Even then, the real meaning often escaped me. (I really don’t think I’m that dense.)

While I admit that I’ve also had to reread certain passages of the Bible over again (I like the Douay-Rheims), because of the less familiar use of the old language, but I’ve never gotten a feeling of queasiness or dread while reading any of it. Not even from reading the Apocalypse, that seems to scare the heck out of most other people. The Bible always inspires me. Needless to say, I think I got quite the opposite of the ‘burning in the bosom’ that I should have gotten as proof of the BoM’s authenticity, since I was sincerely trying to find out what about it was so inspirational to my friends. I was actually embarrassed to tell them how I really felt about it, so I hope you won’t be offended by anything I just said. But, I suppose I’d make a pretty lousy Mormon.

I do hope you’re enjoying your Sunday, anyway.

Hi, Telstar,

I am enjoying our Sunday as a family, thank you, what with attending Sunday services and walking outside in the absolutely gorgeous weather.

I wasn’t offended, and it would be interesting to know the place you read in the Book of Mormon–perhaps in 2 Nephi 2 or 9 or Alma 9, 12, 41, or 42, or any of a number of other places. Some of those descriptions do tie well to the Apocolypse, so it is a good idea to read them with that kind of contextual framework to understand that the idea is not to be “fearful”, but to understand that the conditions of punishment for our sins will be as harsh within our feelings as though it were physical torment, and also that since you are a believer in Christ and a believer in repentance, that the torment descriptions are not “about you”, but about unbelievers who know about Christ and take no advantage of His grace.

As far as my overall comment to Alwayswondering, I was directing the comment specifically and directly to them, although trying also to have others be interested in re-reading Paul’s epistle to the Hebrews, which has some very tremendous insights.

I don’t view the teachings of the New Testament about the Holy Spirit as seeming to provide some blanket coverage, however, so it seems to me that each person ought to go about seeking the Holy Spirit in their personal life, every day, as a Comforter and a Counselor and a purifier and a guide.

 

[Naf623]

Hello, I’ve seen people banned for disrespect of the Real Presence; Jesus Present Body and Blood in the Eucharist. So, I’ll just jump in here, in your defense to the mods, to say, I said a similar thing to a Catholic friend, when I was an atheist. He returned the “compliment” by calling me a heathen. We were, at the time, good friends and so insults were taken in a friendly manner.

So, here I’ve come, from insulting my friend to receiving the Body of Jesus Christ at Mass today.

I’ll try to help you further, and explain to you, that we believe Jesus Christ when He taught that we “must eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, or there is no life in you”. When Jesus taught it, it was a hard thing to hear, and many disciples left at this teaching. I encourage you to not be one of them.

Peace.

I didn’t mean It in the disrespectful manner against your beliefs, but understand that I in no way share them, and to an outsider (as you clearly do understand) it’s easy to take it that way.
Later in the same discourse, Christ qualifies what He means by eating His flesh; firstly He compares it to he manna that the Israelites received in the wilderness, and points out that He does not mean it to be eaten as they ate the manna. A short while further on He says:
“63*It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
Because those He was teaching found it difficult to understand and accept, He clarified His statements that it was not the actual eating of His body, but metaphorical because eating His body profits nothing, but partaking of His spirit and His teachings will benefit us.
Your own Eucharist quotes “do this In remembrance of me”. If Jesus’ body were actually present, then remembrance would not be applicable. Remembrance implies using something to signify and help us to recall.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Christ compares it more to the manna from heaven than cannibalism.

Prior when He first began to introduce the reality of eating of His flesh and blood, many of His followers left Him, but Peter and the apostles remained, knowing He alone was able to give them eternal life…not man or the works of man.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I didn’t mean It in the disrespectful manner against your beliefs, but understand that I in no way share them, and to an outsider (as you clearly do understand) it’s easy to take it that way.
Later in the same discourse, Christ qualifies what He means by eating His flesh; firstly He compares it to he manna that the Israelites received in the wilderness, and points out that He does not mean it to be eaten as they ate the manna. A short while further on He says:
“63*It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
Because those He was teaching found it difficult to understand and accept, He clarified His statements that it was not the actual eating of His body, but metaphorical because eating His body profits nothing, but partaking of His spirit and His teachings will benefit us.
Your own Eucharist quotes “do this In remembrance of me”. If Jesus’ body were actually present, then remembrance would not be applicable. Remembrance implies using something to signify and help us to recall.

First, Christ’s Church has always taught the Eucharist as it is taught by all Catholics today. So you are teaching a modification of the teachings of Christ, that came about during the Protestant Reformation. Prior to this, what you are teaching was never taught. “My Flesh is true food and My Blood is true drink.” (John 6:55), taught by the earliest Christians, who were taught by Jesus Christ.

Manna was a prefiguring of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, that is what He teaches. Jesus never teaches what you are saying. He never says, oh never mind, I didn’t mean eat. You are inventing words to put in the Word of God’s mouth. The Greek word used in the text means, “to gnaw”. A word that is only used in relationship to eating.

The word used is memorare, which has a deeper meaning than remembrance, as Mormons and some Protestants use the word. That is, remembering something that happened a long time ago.

It is a word that means to bring into our presence. The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ brought into Presence at every Mass. A meeting point of the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is Risen, Christ will come again.

Christ, made Present. You should fall on your face and thank God for His Mercy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, Christ compares it more to the manna from heaven than cannibalism.

Prior when He first began to introduce the reality of eating of His flesh and blood, many of His followers left Him, but Peter and the apostles remained, knowing He alone was able to give them eternal life…not man or the works of man.

 

[Telstar]

You mean the same way we feel insulted when you keep referring to ‘the god of the Mormons’ suggesting we worship a different God than you believe you are, in addition to disrespectfully removing His capitalisation?
Perhaps you’re feeling a little of what I felt after my first post?

Touché!

The difference is that I’m stating the same facts that have been taught by the Catholic Church for 2000 years, while yours are from Joseph Smith’s version of ‘God’, that was first introduced by him 180 years ago. The basic LDS beliefs about ‘God’ put Mormonism in a class all by itself, unlike any other form of Christian religion. Therefore, it’s the absolute truth that LDS worship a completely different ‘God’, that may have the same names, but is not of the same substance. But, you’re certainly free to make your own choice in which one to believe, based on your own ‘free agency’.

Yes, many civilisations believed that cannibalisation gave them the strength of those they ate.
I know you won’t like the comment that bluntly, but let’s face it that’s certainly the way it sounds.

I will echo what Rebecca said about denigrating the Real Presence of the Eucharist on this forum. I hope the Mods will be lenient with you, since you are very new, here. This is the central belief in the Catholic faith, and we do tend to get a little touchy when people speak of it with such blatant disrespect, as a means of insulting us. I would prefer that you would direct your insults to me, personally, for your own protection, both, from the Mods of the forum and from God, because I can guarantee that He doesn’t like it, either.

‘Saints’ recognised only by the Catholic church, and only from within it’s own number.

If you ever really read anything about the lives of those Saints that are recognized by the Church, you might realize that the faith most of us have is like a tiny drop in the ocean when compared to theirs. Their acts of heroism, ability to perform great miracles in the name of God, and other profound visible signs of the Presence of the Holy Spirit, are unmistakable in their lives. Our Church recognizes that kind of powerful faith, and holds those people up as wonderful examples for us, that we should all hope to emulate in our own lives.

Never read Isaiah? Neither of those difficulties suggest in any way that The Book of Mormon is not true.

As I said in my original post, I have read some things in the Bible that I also had to reread, several times, to figure out. The Old Testament seems to have more of that kind of stuff than the New, but I can usually figure it out. However, the BoM says things that make absolutely no sense, whatsoever. No matter how long I take to try to understand it, it doesn’t help. I was recently reading something about the voyage to America that had me completely baffled. One of the facts that just seemed silly to me, was that it kept referring to a certain person as “the brother of Jarod” (sp), who appeared to be much more significant than Jarod actually was, yet his name was apparently not considered to be important enough to ever be mentioned, at all. It’s things like that that make me tend to think it was just written by someone that was very fond of overusing certain phraseology, because he thought it would make his writings sound more “Biblical” to do it that way.

But, the feeling of anxiety that I get when reading the BoM is more like I get when I do something wrong, and immediately recognize it as such, because my conscience goes into hyper-drive, letting me know that what I did was wrong.

All feelings that Satan is fully able and perfectly willing to replicate at a moment’s notice. Only Satan would encourage us not to study and pray to discover the truth and validity of anything that we came across. These feelings are, as you have discovered, an extremely effective method that Satan uses to try and prevent perfectly sincere and devout people from doing things that they should. Joseph Smith came across the same when he prayed to God; he did not get his answer until he applied every fibre of his being to the effort of not giving in to it.

Or, they’re feelings inspired by the Holy Spirit, telling me to step back away from the flames. One of my own personal gifts of the Holy Spirit is that of discernment. When He ‘speaks’ to me, I tend to listen.

I do not doubt your sincerity, although I might question your purpose. We receive our witness (as pointed out by ParkerD above) when our true feelings, desires and intents of our heart match our words and perceived wishes.

I don’t believe in basing my faith on my own ‘wishes’. I believe in God, and I know very well where He has placed me, and why. I’m not likely to change my mind at this late stage in my life. “Been there, done that”, a very long time ago, when I was young and arrogantly went ‘searching’ for a better answer. The smack in the head that I got for it, convinced me that I was just wasting my time looking for something that I had, all along.

 

[Telstar]

Hi, Telstar,

I am enjoying our Sunday as a family, thank you, what with attending Sunday services and walking outside in the absolutely gorgeous weather.

I wasn’t offended, and it would be interesting to know the place you read in the Book of Mormon–perhaps in 2 Nephi 2 or 9 or Alma 9, 12, 41, or 42, or any of a number of other places. Some of those descriptions do tie well to the Apocolypse, so it is a good idea to read them with that kind of contextual framework to understand that the idea is not to be “fearful”, but to understand that the conditions of punishment for our sins will be as harsh within our feelings as though it were physical torment, and also that since you are a believer in Christ and a believer in repentance, that the torment descriptions are not “about you”, but about unbelievers who know about Christ and take no advantage of His grace.

As far as my overall comment to Alwayswondering, I was directing the comment specifically and directly to them, although trying also to have others be interested in re-reading Paul’s epistle to the Hebrews, which has some very tremendous insights.

I don’t view the teachings of the New Testament about the Holy Spirit as seeming to provide some blanket coverage, however, so it seems to me that each person ought to go about seeking the Holy Spirit in their personal life, every day, as a Comforter and a Counselor and a purifier and a guide.

Hello again, Parker

I’m glad you had a good day. It was gorgeous, here, too!

I was trying to remember what passage it was, but I’m not really sure. It might have been something in 2 Nephi. I think it was speaking about ‘the inheritance’ or something like that? Maybe? I’ve read quite a few passages from different books in the BoM over the past few years, so it’s hard for me to remember exactly what it was. (I’m getting older, so maybe I suffer from a touch of senility, aka “CRS”. LOL ) I have no problem dealing with anything in the Apocalypse, so my feelings of dread were not because of anything in particular that I read about. The Apocalypse is actually one of my favorite books of the Bible. I really get a kick out of trying to figure out some new ‘hidden’ meanings for its strange imagery. It doesn’t scare me at all. I’ve always hoped that I would still be alive at the Second Coming, even though I know that the time leading up to it will literally be like hell on earth for everyone alive during that time.

I do remember that I made the mistake of continuing to read beyond the passages that they had given me to read. I also jumped around to different places in it, to see if my reaction would be any different if I read other parts of it. I remember that I was very disheartened by some passages that I found about the “great and abominable church of the devil”. The descriptions were fairly obvious to me what Church they referred to, by all of ‘trappings’ that it spoke about. There was very little doubt in my mind. Up until that point, I was quite willing to investigate and try to accept something that they seemed to think was so beautiful to read that it would bring them to tears. But, the tears that it ‘inspired’ in me were not quite for the same reasons.

 

[ParkerD]

Hello again, Parker

I’m glad you had a good day. It was gorgeous, here, too!

I was trying to remember what passage it was, but I’m not really sure. It might have been something in 2 Nephi. I think it was speaking about ‘the inheritance’ or something like that? Maybe? I’ve read quite a few passages from different books in the BoM over the past few years, so it’s hard for me to remember exactly what it was. (I’m getting older, so maybe I suffer from a touch of senility, aka “CRS”. LOL ) I have no problem dealing with anything in the Apocalypse, so my feelings of dread were not because of anything in particular that I read about. The Apocalypse is actually one of my favorite books of the Bible. I really get a kick out of trying to figure out some new ‘hidden’ meanings for its strange imagery. It doesn’t scare me at all. I’ve always hoped that I would still be alive at the Second Coming, even though I know that the time leading up to it will literally be like hell on earth for everyone alive during that time.

I do remember that I made the mistake of continuing to read beyond the passages that they had given me to read. I also jumped around to different places in it, to see if my reaction would be any different if I read other parts of it. I remember that I was very disheartened by some passages that I found about the “great and abominable church of the devil”. The descriptions were fairly obvious to me what Church they referred to, by all of ‘trappings’ that it spoke about. There was very little doubt in my mind. Up until that point, I was quite willing to investigate and try to accept something that they seemed to think was so beautiful to read that it would bring them to tears. But, the tears that it ‘inspired’ in me were not quite for the same reasons.

Telstar,

But if you were familiar with Apocalypse then as you were reading about the “great and abominable church” it should have had the familiarity of similar imagery to what John described, so I wouldn’t think it would have had “trappings” that made it seem to be pointing to one organizational church. It doesn’t seem that way to me in current readings in either the Bible or the Book of Mormon, although perhaps the first time I read those words I thought it meant a particular church organization since that’s how I perceived the word “church”, but have come to understand differently, much more broadly about different kinds of organizations that Satan has influence among, that spread darkness and mistrust of Christ rather than spread His light and its good effects among the peoples of this world.

 

[Naf623]

Touché!

The difference is that I’m stating the same facts that have been taught by the Catholic Church for 2000 years, while yours are from Joseph Smith’s version of ‘God’, that was first introduced by him 180 years ago. The basic LDS beliefs about ‘God’ put Mormonism in a class all by itself, unlike any other form of Christian religion. Therefore, it’s the absolute truth that LDS worship a completely different ‘God’, that may have the same names, but is not of the same substance. But, you’re certainly free to make your own choice in which one to believe, based on your own ‘free agency’.

I would say that we are seeking the same God, but we believe that He has a number of different charachteristics than you do. Just because a person or group has been saying something for a long time, doesn’t mean it’s automatically true. The earth isn’t flat, the earth isn’t the centre if the universe, or even solar system. Both beliefs that were widely held and accepted for a long time.
I would agree that we are a class distinct from other branches of Christianity, because we are a new vine altogether. While other sects and denominations are schisms and dissentions from an original that had already strayed from the true teachings of Christ, we have had His truth once again revealed to us in all it’s majesty, splendour and simplicity. A complete restoration was necessary through someone prepared to do all that was necessary to align his life with God’s will; not someone who wanted to find a way to fit as much of God’s will into their already comfortable life.
When, then, was/will be the apostasy and restoration that was prophesied by both Old and New Testament prophets?

I will echo what Rebecca said about denigrating the Real Presence of the Eucharist on this forum. I hope the Mods will be lenient with you, since you are very new, here. This is the central belief in the Catholic faith, and we do tend to get a little touchy when people speak of it with such blatant disrespect, as a means of insulting us. I would prefer that you would direct your insults to me, personally, for your own protection, both, from the Mods of the forum and from God, because I can guarantee that He doesn’t like it, either.

It has beed pointed out that sometimes even Jesus Himself spoke out harshly against others when they were not doing the things they should, and this used as a reason for harsh words being directed our way as we do things differently to the way you believe to be right. Turn the tables, and suddenly the picture is rather different. Can the same not be said of your (collectively) ‘blatant distespect’ of the Book of Mormon? Because I can guarantee He doesn’t like that.

If you ever really read anything about the lives of those Saints that are recognized by the Church, you might realize that the faith most of us have is like a tiny drop in the ocean when compared to theirs. Their acts of heroism, ability to perform great miracles in the name of God, and other profound visible signs of the Presence of the Holy Spirit, are unmistakable in their lives. Our Church recognizes that kind of powerful faith, and holds those people up as wonderful examples for us, that we should all hope to emulate in our own lives.

I’m not denying that good people who do wonderful things come from many different backgrounds.

But, the feeling of anxiety that I get when reading the BoM is more like I get when I do something wrong, and immediately recognize it as such, because my conscience goes into hyper-drive, letting me know that what I did was wrong.

Again, easily reproduced by Satan. Many many people who have done wrong, very quickly feel uneasy and uncomfortable reading the scriptures, or praying. While the base feelings that Satan has to work with may be different in different people, he is extremely crafty and clever.

Or, they’re feelings inspired by the Holy Spirit, telling me to step back away from the flames. One of my own personal gifts of the Holy Spirit is that of discernment. When He ‘speaks’ to me, I tend to listen.

Flames? I do not believe that The Spirit would ever warn against trying to find out truth. It is one if his main purposes, to testify of all truth after all. Only Satan would warn a person against study and prayer to discover truth.

I don’t believe in basing my faith on my own ‘wishes’.

“Been there, done that”, a very long time ago, when I was young and arrogantly went ‘searching’ for a better answer. The smack in the head that I got for it, convinced me that I was just wasting my time looking for something that I had, all along.

As have I, and the experience was very similar by the sounds of it. .

 

[Naf623]

Telstar,

But if you were familiar with Apocalypse then as you were reading about the “great and abominable church” it should have had the familiarity of similar imagery to what John described, so I wouldn’t think it would have had “trappings” that made it seem to be pointing to one organizational church. It doesn’t seem that way to me in current readings in either the Bible or the Book of Mormon, although perhaps the first time I read those words I thought it meant a particular church organization since that’s how I perceived the word “church”, but have come to understand differently, much more broadly about different kinds of organizations that Satan has influence among, that spread darkness and mistrust of Christ rather than spread His light and its good effects among the peoples of this world.

This is certainly LDS teaching, that the ‘church’ referred to is really all of the other things in the world that people choose to align their lives with and worship instead of God. Consider if you were a person from ancient times, and saw the way people treat money, revere celebrity, and take such pride in the value and status of their homes, cars, clothes etc. What other way would you describe such behaviour than belonging to a chuch, and that clearly led by the devil

 

[KathleenGee]

Revelations does not speak of a church…but of a beast, a harlot…the secular world.

Nobody saw the Catholic Church as Babylon until Martin Luther, who was singling out a particular pope. Few people have read Martin Luther’s letters either who also believed in no apostolic succession of faith passed down generation by generation through the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church instituted by Jesus Christ through the primacy of Peter.

Jesus Christ is God. The Holy Spirit is God. God does not make mistakes. Human beings were made with free will.

Catholics were made with free will. The Catholic Church does not tell Catholics to give up their free will.

If anything, the Catholic Church teaches it is our free will and intellect that we are made in the image of God. So in no uncertain terms is the Church going to tell people to give up their free will.

But the Catholic Church is made up of human beings. And there was a time prior to the Protestant reformation that the clergy did not have a good education…just like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young.

So it is a life time work for us, beyond our initial and weekly communions in divine grace by partaking of the Eucharist, to become Christ like…not God…but Christ like and in becoming instruments of His grace and mercy to others.

And that also implies that God is working with human clay. People backslide. So do popes, bishops, priests, laity. Jesus said that those who persevere to the end will be saved. He said we have to pick up our cross and follow Him every day.

Every day has its drawbacks, its troubles, its worries, its afflictions. We have to live one day at a time. So do the clerics. There is no monopoly on holiness in the Catholic Church, and seminarians are told to prepare for people in their future parishes that will have more faith than they.

The dismantling of Christianity began with Luther along with regionalism, which in turn led to the Enlightenment and the Father of relativism, the plague of today, Descartes – I think, therefore I am.

Relativism is essentially removing faith from the face of the world. We are living in the Great Apostasy right now. The entire Christian faith is being lost in various countries already in Europe. This is the Great Apostasy…not the Roman Catholic Church.

To say that the Catholic Church, whose inner life is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ–is the church of abomination is the words of Joseph Smith. Such a conviction reflects rather a faith based on man than God.

If we follow sects, non-denominations…they are all based on men, not Christ. And if you believe in a religion based on man, it will have as its construct as well spend part of its time denigrating other churches. Man vs man.

*If we follow a man made church, our fruit is sectarianism not universal communion.
*

The Great Apostasy is not the Catholic Church, but the falling away from God Himself throughout the entire world.