How do the Mormons do it?

[Naf623]

This just goes to show that you don’t understand the literature of Revelations. Read the book of Daniel and tell me what all the imagery mean, angels in that book would look outrageous if taken on a literal description. You even missed that the Gospel is represented as “four living creatures”. Once again showing that you don’t understand the imagery and the fact that the meaning of Revelations is meant to be confusing.

I find the very concept that anything about the gospel is intended to be confusing completely absurd. And also very much at odds with a loving God who wants to help us.

When any of the NT writers refer to scripture they are referring to the OT. So, no real Bible to read from since the Bible wasn’t available to be read cover to cover.

So the letters that Paul sent (and i’m sure we aren’t meant to assume he was alone among the missionaries in writing) were never intended to be read or acted upon?

The part that I bolded above would also mean that Jesus lied and that His Holy Spirit did NOT remain with His Church - which He clearly promised it would!!

Clearly? I’m aware he told his Apostles that He would send it to them (explaining that they had no need of it while He was present, and if He did not go then it would not come), and that it would testify of truth, bring things to their rememberance, tell them what they should teach. I’m not aware He said that the Spirit would stay with any one church.

I don’t think you should never put dialogue based in evidence with an LDS since he chose to believe in Joseph Smith.

I don’t choose to believe in Joseph Smith; when I made a reasoned enquiry into religion, to the Bible and prayerfully to God, He told me by personal revelation through His Holy Spirit that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true church on the earth, that Joseph Smith did indeed see God The Father and His Son, Jesus Christ after his own careful study and sincere prayer, that The Book of Mormon was brough forth by prophecy and inspiration through the divine gift of the interpreting of tongues, and that the truths and precepts held within its pages are an additional testimony of the reality and divinity of Jesus Christ. The pages of The Book of Mormon contain a stronger and more powerful witness to me, and to many other Latter Day Saints than does the Bible that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of The Living God, that He and His (Our) Father love and care for us and desire nothing more than to see us in heaven with them.
The Word of God is more than sufficient for me to believe whatever He says, in spite of others’ contrary beliefs, opinions and teachings; and regardless of any evidence presented which may appear contrary. If He says it is so, then it is so and no amount of reasoning, arguing, semantics or evidence will change that simple fact.
The true, compelling feeling of communication and verification from On High such as this cannot be given from mortal to mortal, nor can OT be fully or satisfactorily explained one person to another. One who has felt this knows he has, and cannot easily deny it to himself even should he desire to.

If Joseph SMith is a faulse prophet (as everybody think he is except mormons)

Many believed the Earth was flat; did common belief make it so?

We as Chrstian we should pray for them, since if they are very wrong, as we think they are, they will really need our prayers.

And as you are very wrong, as I know you are, you have my pity and my prayers.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am not participating much any more in Mormon threads because of the audacious disregard of history of Christianity and its uniformity of worship, its disregard for the countless members who suffered martyrdom, and the consistency of our teachings that correspond to the Word Made Flesh, as well as the lack of logic and implication that Christ is another god in ‘restoring’ the truth.

How many mainline protestant denominations are disappearing or returning to the Catholic fold???

St. Paul spoke of the latter times when people would no longer believe in solid doctrine but stress avoiding foods and having strange ideas…he forewarned of listening to angels…

St. Peter in his second letter said to follow only the teachings of Christ through those chosen by Him – His apostles…not Joseph Smith.

What you are seeing in America are forms of Christianity like no other place, because Sola Scriptura and our private, individualistic mindset has reduced the Sacred Word of God into countless, endless disputes and factions, further splintering of His Word.

Such a state did not exist 500 years ago.

And saying the Church did not want its believers to study the Word of God for themselves is a lie. Every Mass has the Old and New Testament, with teachings that are drawn from the apostolic tradition. It is the Holy Spirit and not men that is binding us to the truth of Christ and His church.

Just the cost of printing pages…The Church discerned which books were inspired for public knowledge, which ones were for private revelation, and the rest were forms of gnosticism and refused. Common sense and knowledge of ancient times in the beginning shows the Church was born in much prevail and persecution, and this thwarted a number of texts…

There was a particular time when sheepskin was used as pages for making a Bible, and it cost about 300 plus sheep. Imagine how much culling for Bibles if every one were to have their own Bible.

Mormonism does not hold itself up to public scrutiny. It is only coming out in the past years what actually goes on in their temples.

The Word of God was meant to solidify us as a People of God, of Church, not to be misused and abridged to strange texts.

Mormonism has changed its beliefs a number of times, but the bottom line–that Christianity is corrupt, and I say that because not only is the Mormon Church placing itself as the adversary and competitor of Catholicism, but also claims all other forms of Christianity, the Protestant daughters, as part of the same ilk. This is not charity or divinity…but a claim reflective based on man…man against man.

Catholicism is universal reflecting the nature of Christ, His mission and His redemptive work…He died and resurrected for all. This is the construct of Catholicism, not anti them.

Alot of people cannot connect to Catholicism because of the images they were indoctrinated with. Fundamentalists who later become Catholic have their own traumas to overcome, even after they are members of the Church.

To follow Christ and believe that His Eucharist is indeed His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is actually pretty simple. There is nothing difficult about that to understand.

Think of it…you want to be part of a religion that is based on condemning our faith. You are then part of a religion that is denying the sanctuary that holds the Divine Presence of God. You are possibly in position to deny your own self eternal life. Only Christ can be the gate to eternal life, no one or nothing else.

Subsequently, as our Church does have the sanctuary with God physically present, God Who absolves our sins…most sacred and holy place…then all else falls into place…our teachings, our environment in the holy dwelling place, and those who must be chosen to have their work in maintaining and administrating God Himself. That is the work of the priest. Being married and having family and being devout in one’s faith in Christ and His sacraments extends the priesthood to all of us, including women. We work to bring Christ’s holiness into the world, and this makes us an extension of Christ’s priesthood.

But to serve at the altar, and to work to be the human instrument to make God physically present to the world is the work of the priesthood alone. ‘Dare not touch my anointed ones!’, Psalm 101.

There is nothing secretive or nefarious happening in our churches. They are open to the public…Our understanding of Sacred Scripture is open to be revealed to the world.

The Lord Jesus resides in our temples…in our cathedrals and our local parish churches. He is our center, our focus. We find our righteousness alone in Christ. Go to Mass and you will never hear a priest knocking down other people or beliefs. We are progressive, we are forward thinking, we look forward to being in union with Christ and with each other in heaven some day.

I must say this, that after looking at the attitudes that come on here, we will all be accountable to Christ Himself for what we did or didn’t do, what we said or did not say.

 

[SteveVH]

That is because spreading the Mormon religion is reliant on people who can read. This is a relative new way to proselytize, as has been pointed out several times…people who can’t read aren’t going to read. Not a Book of Mormon in any language. No burning bosoms if people can’t read.

Understanding the Good News of Jesus Christ is not reliant on how well one is educated, or ones economic position. That is the mission and purpose of the Catholic Church, to bring people to Jesus Christ. Today, much of the world can read and can come to know Christ through reading. But that has never been the normative way for the Catholic Church to evangelize. We evangelize by what we do, by stepping into the fray, by our public prayers, churches,…being Christ’s presence in the world. Not by handing a book to someone and asking them to read it. That does nothing for what Jesus commanded us to do…to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, care for widows, etc.

You are making a complaint that has no meaning, other than to support an ideology, ideologies do nothing for anyone.

Thanks for this Rebecca. I think it is very difficult for a church that is a little over 150 years old, started in the most literate and wealthy country in the world, to even grasp what it took to evangelize an illiterate, Pagan world over the past 2000 years.

 

[CopticChristian]

I find the very concept that anything about the gospel is intended to be confusing completely absurd. And also very much at odds with a loving God who wants to help us.

So the letters that Paul sent (and i’m sure we aren’t meant to assume he was alone among the missionaries in writing) were never intended to be read or acted upon?

Clearly? I’m aware he told his Apostles that He would send it to them (explaining that they had no need of it while He was present, and if He did not go then it would not come), and that it would testify of truth, bring things to their rememberance, tell them what they should teach. I’m not aware He said that the Spirit would stay with any one church.

I don’t choose to believe in Joseph Smith; when I made a reasoned enquiry into religion, to the Bible and prayerfully to God, He told me by personal revelation through His Holy Spirit that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true church on the earth, that Joseph Smith did indeed see God The Father and His Son, Jesus Christ after his own careful study and sincere prayer, that The Book of Mormon was brough forth by prophecy and inspiration through the divine gift of the interpreting of tongues, and that the truths and precepts held within its pages are an additional testimony of the reality and divinity of Jesus Christ. The pages of The Book of Mormon contain a stronger and more powerful witness to me, and to many other Latter Day Saints than does the Bible that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of The Living God, that He and His (Our) Father love and care for us and desire nothing more than to see us in heaven with them.
The Word of God is more than sufficient for me to believe whatever He says, in spite of others’ contrary beliefs, opinions and teachings; and regardless of any evidence presented which may appear contrary. If He says it is so, then it is so and no amount of reasoning, arguing, semantics or evidence will change that simple fact.
The true, compelling feeling of communication and verification from On High such as this cannot be given from mortal to mortal, nor can OT be fully or satisfactorily explained one person to another. One who has felt this knows he has, and cannot easily deny it to himself even should he desire to.

Many believed the Earth was flat; did common belief make it so?

And as you are very wrong, as I know you are, you have my pity and my prayers.

Then you did not clearly understand Paul, not to believe another gospel, not that there is another gospel he said…

 

[Denise1957]

Thanks for this Rebecca. I think it is very difficult for a church that is a little over 150 years old, started in the most literate and wealthy country in the world, to even grasp what it took to evangelize an illiterate, Pagan world over the past 2000 years.

You bring up a good point here. Non-Catholics do not appreciate how the Faith was passed down from Jesus to His Apostles: He gave His Apostles verbal instruction. He did not tell or instruct the Apostles to write down what He told them. Nor did Jesus write any down anything, nor did he write any books. He told His Apostles to go out into the world and to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and to teach all that He had taught them. These were His instructions, and this is what the Church has faithfully done since the beginning.

Some of the Apostles did write things down, because they realized that false teachings were being promulgated, and they wanted an account of the true teachings to be recorded, but they were not instructed by Jesus to do so. So the idea that people can simply read the Gospel and form their own conclusions (supposedly led by the Holy Ghost) does not line up with Scripture, and it is not what Our Lord Jesus Christ taught.

And there isn’t anything in the Gospels that would indicate that the supposedly true teachings would eventually be promulgated by a prophet named Joseph Smith in the 1800’s. If this were really true, then there would be clear NT Scripture that would back this up, but there isn’t.

 

[Naf623]

Then you did not clearly understand Paul, not to believe another gospel, not that there is another gospel he said…

But it isn’t another gospel, it is another testament of Jesus Christ. Just like Matthew, Mark, Like and John are; separate writings, but teaching the same gospel and written for the purpose of showing Christ to all the world.

 

[Naf623]

And there isn’t anything in the Gospels that would indicate that the supposedly true teachings would eventually be promulgated by a prophet named Joseph Smith in the 1800’s. If this were really true, then there would be clear NT Scripture that would back this up, but there isn’t.

Really? By the same logic there ought to be OT scriptures naming all 12 apostles ad well as Saul/Paul and Stephen. Where are these?
As pointed out, there is clear NT scripture in Revelaion about the necessity of bringing the gospel back to the earth, combined with Amos it is clear that this is necessary because it was nowhere to be found true and complete on th earth. Bend and twist the interpretation all you like; it’s very clear to me and the Holy Spirit…
Jesus Christ spoke very plainly in His teachings such that all could understand, why assume that His disciples would not?

 

[Denise1957]

Really? By the same logic there ought to be OT scriptures naming all 12 apostles ad well as Saul/Paul and Stephen. Where are these?
As pointed out, there is clear NT scripture in Revelaion about the necessity of bringing the gospel back to the earth, combined with Amos it is clear that this is necessary because it was nowhere to be found true and complete on th earth. Bend and twist the interpretation all you like; it’s very clear to me and the Holy Spirit…
Jesus Christ spoke very plainly in His teachings such that all could understand, why assume that His disciples would not?

No, it is not clear that Our Lord or the Apostles taught that a man named Joseph Smith would supposedly bring back the true teachings. Sorry, but it’s not there. St. Paul and St. Stephen are in scripture. But not Joseph Smith.

You have a feeling that the Holy Spirit told you the Truth about the matter. But that’s totally subjective. The Catholic faith is based on Scripture and Tradition.

Correction: The Catholic faith is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium, just as Our Lord taught.

 

[Stephen168]

The book of Mormon and Bibile are available on audiocassette, CD and I believe can be accessed online in audio also. For languages which have only oral tradition, not written, the scriptures are available in audio also, and videos are available for ASL and BSL so I guess they are available in other sign languages also. Not to mention Braillle…

Hypocrisy is how Mormon’s do it.

 

[Stephen168]

But the Church did provide scripture in a manner they were educated to understand, by hearing the Word

But without access to the actual text (even if it has to be read to them), people are completely reliant on someone else interpreting it on their behalf. How are they supposed to have confidence in an interpretation of something, if they can’t actually access the thing in the first place?

The book of Mormon and Bibile are available on audiocassette, CD and I believe can be accessed online in audio also. For languages which have only oral tradition, not written, the scriptures are available in audio also, and videos are available for ASL and BSL so I guess they are available in other sign languages also. Not to mention Braillle…

Hear the word in person is bad….hear the word on audio-cassette is good. Or is this a double standard?

 

[Telstar]

If the Catholic mass today is indeed just the same as what John would have attended (which I do not accept), then he has even less reason to describe the priest as an angel, because he is clearly a man. If he held the same belief that angels and men are distinctly different species, then he has less reason again to make such a confusing statement. Much more likely, given the simplicity and plainness of New Testament teachings, is that he really does mean an actual angel, actually coming from actual heaven carrying the actual true gospel to the earth.

The basic form and purpose of the Mass has never changed, whether you choose to ‘accept’ it or not. Your lack of understanding due to listening to ‘teachers with itching ears’ will not change that truth.

Your argument still does not marry up to what is actually written, plus still fails to explain why the angel needs to being the gospel to the earth. If the fulness of gospel truths were already on the earth and being taught correctly then it would be illogical for the angel to bring it. Thus the scripture describes a time upon the earth where God’s words were not being taught, or if they were then they were no longer being taught correctly and therefore it was necessary to restore them.

During the entire Mass, the Angels travel back and forth, to and from Heaven, to bring our prayers to God and to bring His Grace and blessings to us as we, once again, participate in the Holy Sacrifice of Calgary. Angels are messengers of God that are completely separate creations from mankind, but are also used as a simile for holy men. I know that’s a difficult concept for Mormons to grasp, since they think we all started as angels, per the erroneous teachings of Joseph Smith.

Alongside the prophecy of Amos that a time will come when there will be a “famine in the land…of hearing the words of The Lord” and that people shall travel everywhere In an attempt to find it, but will not be able to. (Amos 8:11-12) the two together clearly speak of a time where the words of God (the Gospel) will not be found anywhere on the earth, and then they will be brought back again by an angel visiting from heaven.
From the time of Amos through until Christ, the Word of The Lord was present in the Judaic worship, and from Christ’s timed this no longer applied (having been fulfilled in Christ) and so only Christ’s teachings constituted the Word of The Lord. If the time prophecied by Amos has not yet been, then there is yet to come a time when all churches, Catholic included, will either fail or will be teaching incorrect principles. If Catholic teachings, traditions and practises do not change, then they must already be in this apostate state, as must all other church’s claiming continuous mortal apostolic succession from Christ to the present.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Another misconception of Joseph Smith’s. The “famine in the land…of hearing the words of The Lord” likely refers to the Jews in those days that were led astray to worship false ‘gods’ by false prophets, like Joseph Smith.

The book of Mormon and Bibile are available on audiocassette, CD and I believe can be accessed online in audio also. For languages which have only oral tradition, not written, the scriptures are available in audio also, and videos are available for ASL and BSL so I guess they are available in other sign languages also. Not to mention Braillle…

And, how does that help the poor illiterate people that can’t afford a tape player or CD player? Maybe they’re just not ‘worthy’, since they’re poor.

I’ve never said that, and have been careful not to assert any such thing. But instead of relying on one person’s translation of Latin, which will differ from another person’s in various ways, and may lose some of the language, smilie and metaphors of the original dependant on the reason for translating (the particular teaching being presented, or the perceived understanding level of the individual or group it is being translated to), having an authorised translation, accepted as correct by the Magisterium, that could simply be read to the person, allows scripture to do its job and keep its real power: that people can learn based on their readiness to learn, and the more one learns, the more one can glean from a reading of the same scripture.

Unlike ‘priests’ in the LDS church, a Catholic Priest’s entire life has always been dedicated to the service of God and spreading His Holy Word to the people. They are very familiar with the entire Bible, and its interpretation according to the Magisterium of the Church. They are not supposed to deviate from the meaning that has always been taught by the Church. If they do, they will be subject to correction and discipline by their Bishop. Those who chose to defy Catholic teaching on those interpretations, or anything else that is required to be believed, were excommunicated if they refused to follow those teachings. Errors were not allowed to persist, because that’s where heresy begins.

(‘smilies’ are irrelevant)

You’re right; going out and teaching people, asking them to read the things that has been written is not the normal way the Catholic church teaches and proselytes, but it is the way the Early Church did it. John 5:39 "Search the scriptures…they are they which testify of me

The New Testament didn’t exist at the time of the early Church fathers. That came in the 4th century. Before that time, most teachings were verbal, but the scriptures of the Old Testament and copies of the Apostolic letters were also used. The purpose for gathering the writings of the Apostles and creating a Bible, was to eliminate the errors that were being spread through writings that did not come from, or agree with, the original teachings of the 12 Apostles.

 

[Naf623]

No, it is not clear that Our Lord or the Apostles taught that a man named Joseph Smith would supposedly bring back the true teachings. Sorry, but it’s not there. St. Paul and St. Stephen are in scripture. But not Joseph Smith.

You have a feeling that the Holy Spirit told you the Truth about the matter. But that’s totally subjective. The Catholic faith is based on Scripture and Tradition.

Correction: The Catholic faith is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium, just as Our Lord taught.

Magisterium… Yet another concept I am not aware of Christ teaching…
But you might want to go back and actually read what I wrote, not some imagined sentence that I had nothing to do with.
B your logic that for Joseph Smith to be genuine, he would have to be prophecied by name in the NT; all of the 12 Apostles as well as Saul/Paul and Stephen would have to be prophecied by name in the OT. As they are not, clearly your argument falls down.

Hear the word in person is bad….hear the word on audio-cassette is good. Or is this a double standard?

Perhaps you need to re-read what I have actually written as well. I have advocated having an official translation that could be read to people, instead of having spur of the moment translation interpretation combinations.

 

[Telstar]

Perhaps you need to re-read what I have actually written as well. I have advocated having an official translation that could be read to people, instead of having spur of the moment translation interpretation combinations.

What about your insistence that everyone had to read it for themselves until they got heartburn… errrr… a burning bosom? Isn’t that the reason for this whole discussion over the translation of the Bible being available to ‘all’ in the first place?

 

[Naf623]

The basic form and purpose of the Mass has never changed, whether you choose to ‘accept’ it or not.

From around the 3rd century or so, yes.

Angels are messengers of God that are completely separate creations from mankind,

An interesting concept. Wrong. But interesting.
The scriptural context for this?

but are also used as a simile for holy men.

They have been, but clearly by the fact you believe they exist, not every mention of them is used as this similie…

I know that’s a difficult concept for Mormons to grasp, since they think we all started as angels

Wrong again.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.

It is a term sometimes used to indicate Jesus Christ, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and it simply refers to what it says; God’s Gospel teachings.

The “famine in the land…of hearing the words of The Lord” likely refers to the Jews in those days that were led astray to worship false ‘gods’ by false prophets,.

If it only referred to apostasy of a few, then those seeking it would find it elsewhere. The scripture says that even those dilligently seeking it do not find it. The only reason could be that it is not on the earth, and therefore this must be after the time of Christ as the Law of Moses was still in force when Jesus came to fulfill it. Either this has not happened yet, and so all churches, Catholic included will fail (or already have - more likely if your church never changes as you say); or it has already happened and so no church claiming perfect mortal apostolic succession can possibly be true.

Unlike ‘priests’ in the LDS church, a Catholic Priest’s entire life has always been dedicated to the service of God and spreading His Holy Word to the people. They are very familiar with the entire Bible, and its interpretation according to the Magisterium of the Church. They are not supposed to deviate from the meaning that has always been taught by the Church. If they do, they will be subject to correction and discipline by their Bishop. Those who chose to defy Catholic teaching on those interpretations, or anything else that is required to be believed, were excommunicated if they refused to follow those teachings. Errors were not allowed to persist, because that’s where heresy begins.

I have not suggested intentional changes of doctrine or wrong teachings/translation by the priests. Rather that without an officially sanctioned translation, any translation would be spur of the moment, and even translations of the same scripture by the same priest would likely vary slightly depending on circumstance.
Translation and interpretation are two different things entirely.

(‘smilies’ are irrelevant)

Thanks for that haha
still getting used to this iPad keyboard…

The New Testament didn’t exist at the time of the early Church fathers. That came in the 4th century. Before that time, most teachings were verbal, but the scriptures of the Old Testament and copies of the Apostolic letters were also used. The purpose for gathering the writings of the Apostles and creating a Bible, was to eliminate the errors that were being spread through writings that did not come from, or agree with, the original teachings of the 12 Apostles.

Someone had suggested that The Catholic church doesn’t use written texts in their missionary attempts. I was merely pointing out hat this dozn’t fit with the claim that you do everything the same as the early church did, as they encouraged people to read the scriptures and the words and letters of the prophets and apostles.

 

[Naf623]

What about your insistence that everyone had to read it for themselves until they got heartburn… errrr… a burning bosom? Isn’t that the reason for this whole discussion over the translation of the Bible being available to ‘all’ in the first place?

And what about your insistence on a verbal tradition? What do deaf people do, or is their condition because they’re clearly sinners and so it just doesn’t matter?

 

[pablope]

From around the 3rd century or so, yes.

Someone had suggested that The Catholic church doesn’t use written texts in their missionary attempts. I was merely pointing out hat this dozn’t fit with the claim that you do everything the same as the early church did, as they encouraged people to read the scriptures and the words and letters of the prophets and apostles.

Correct. How could the missionaries who went to foreign lands teach the natives if they did not know latin, english, spanish, etc?

And here is a living witness to this:

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

How I solved the Catholic problem

 

[truthsave]

to Naf623:

it is interesting that you have carefully anwered to all my points in 786 except

They are free to do it. But they don’t realize the extreme danger of it. (talking of mormons)
*
**If a Catholic or Orthodox or whoever don’t accept Joseph Smith as a prophet we will go to pay for it just going in a kindom of lesser exaltation that is anyway not a bad sistuation, since we have believed in Jesus as our savior and as Christians we strived to do our best./**I]

So a mormon play all his cards to become a god and to go in their Celestial Kindom.

You have to admit we are, at the worst, in a better situation then you…*

 

[Stephen168]

What about your insistence that everyone had to read it for themselves until they got heartburn… errrr… a burning bosom? Isn’t that the reason for this whole discussion over the translation of the Bible being available to ‘all’ in the first place?

This thread is about how is it possible for Mormons to believe all the anti-factual (not based on science or history) aspects of their faith. As we have learned; they must claim the anti-factual parts of their faith are not subject to history even though it is contrary to the claims of Joseph Smith. Therefore Mormonism is a total fabrication from the mind Joseph Smith and is without defense. Because Mormons cannot defend this fabrication which claims to be true in another dimension, they must make up strawman attacks on the Catholic Church. This is why almost all discussions of Mormonism turn into a discussion of the Catholic Church. Mormons hope to come here to explain their religion without question, but it never happens. When we question them…the strawman arrives.

The “reason for this discussion of the translation of the bible” is so Mormons will not have to defend the fiction of Mormonism.

 

[Naf623]

They are free to do it. But they don’t realize the extreme danger of it. (talking of mormons)

Extreme danger of following the word of God?

If a Catholic or Orthodox or whoever don’t accept Joseph Smith as a prophet we will go to pay for it just going in a kindom of lesser exaltation that is anyway not a bad sistuation, since we have believed in Jesus as our savior and as Christians we strived to do our best.

It’s got nothing to do with accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet. Although of you do refuse to (particularly by refusing to even sustain and investigate the possibility) then you will never come to a full knowledge of the truth, may not be following correct principles and will in all probability not have all of the necessary saving ordinances performed.

So a mormon play all his cards to go in their Celestial Kindom.

We do our best to be worthy to live in the Celestial Kingdom with our family for eternity, yes.

You have to admit we are, at the worst, in a better situation then you…

How so? Your worst is the same as ours, but our best is much much better than yours.

 

[Stephen168]

And what about your insistence on a verbal tradition? What do deaf people do, or is their condition because they’re clearly sinners and so it just doesn’t matter?

Juan Pablo Bonet