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CopticChristian
Guest
Knox, Zwingli, Luther and Calvin.
I was not aware that Mormons were involved with Nike.
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I was not aware that Mormons were involved with Nike.
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mwok
Guest
Yes like those because the Mormon church leaves most of those issues up to the individual believer and their “conscience”, even on the issues listed in your response.
I gaurantee you that I could get a different answer from each Mormon on how the authorities in the Mormon church teach on these issues, and very few would feel confident enough to declare infallibly that a certain issue is right or wrong.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Wow. Now this got my attention. Mormons are moral people. The LDS have a stance on homosexuality.:thumbsup:Mormons have a stance on the fidelity of marriage and mind altering drugs.
I understand that Mormons are against Pornography and Gambling.It’s kind of like you had me at hello…one more thing…What is the official LDS stance on abortion?
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blueadept
Guest
When you look at the official wording, it looks like there is a loophole to allow abortions and they take offense at that analysis. They’re essentially pro-life but allow for cases such as the safety of the mother and rape. I’ve witnessed to many LDS members who had babies with birth defects to not count this category. So they’re pro-life but prefer not to list that as an official stance by the church since there are exceptions. There are also limited permissible types of contraception. The truly interesting aspect to both of these issues is that Mormons do not view them as moral issues which is mind-boggling for Catholics to grasp.
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mwok
Guest
Precisely why the Mormon church cannot be the Pillar of Truth. God did not say “Thou shalt only kill in the case of rape, incest or risk of the mother’s health.” He did not say “Thou shalt not kill, except when…”
Two wrongs don’t make it right, and in the rare occasion that the pregnancy puts the mother at risk, who are doctors compared to God to say whether she lives or dies?
There really is no excuse for abortion and yet the Mormon church is not confident enough in the authority it claims to have to declare it an abomination. Instead it takes a lukewarm stance. The God I know would not grant me entrance to His eternal presence on a technicality such as “well, you see…she was raped by her father and she would have died carrying the baby to term, so really it isn’t wrong.”
Two wrongs don’t make it right, and in the rare occasion that the pregnancy puts the mother at risk, who are doctors compared to God to say whether she lives or dies?
There really is no excuse for abortion and yet the Mormon church is not confident enough in the authority it claims to have to declare it an abomination. Instead it takes a lukewarm stance. The God I know would not grant me entrance to His eternal presence on a technicality such as “well, you see…she was raped by her father and she would have died carrying the baby to term, so really it isn’t wrong.”
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blueadept
Guest
Here is the official stance of the LDS church.
The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct.
So while I consider most LDS pro-life, I haven’t found too many Catholics agree with the official stance. I still do not understand how they do not view this as a moral issue.
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CopticChristian
Guest
So LDS stance on abortion is as above and as follows:
The Mormon church accepts abortion for a number of reasons. The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved in September, 1998, states that abortion may be performed in the following circumstances: pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; a competent physician says the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy; or a competent physician says that the “fetus” has severe defects that will not allow the “baby” to survive beyond birth. In any case, the persons responsible must first consult with their church leader and receive God’s approval in prayer (156).
This same Handbook, the official policies of the Mormon church to be followed by all local church leaders throughout the world, also claims: “It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body” (156). Previous teachings by former Mormon prophets referred to the unborn child as “a child,” “a baby,” a “human being,” and decried abortion as “killing,” “a grievous sin,” “a damnable practice.” Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet who died in 1985, taught, “We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).
It appears that this “unalterable” position, constantly “affirmed,” is just another in a series of doctrinal and moral teachings that Mormons have reworded, reworked, rescinded, or reneged—though never officially renounced. Such is the quality of the Mormon belief in “continuing revelation.” Don’t expect dogmatic or ethical consistency. Rather, look for expediency and conformity with “the times.”
A further statement in the Handbook says: “The church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion (156).” While the Mormon prophet claims to speak the mind and will of God, he can neither figure out when the unborn child becomes human or if it is God’s desire that we protect the unborn unconditionally.
Nope. Not the pillar and foundation of Truth.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Their view is influenced by their doctrine of pre-existence. The spirit of a person existing before conception, they aren’t sure when this pre-existing spirit enters the body. Along with their doctrine of progression, where this spirit obtaining a body is an essential step towards becoming a god, as they believe that god is a being of flesh and bones, just like themselves.
So with these two beliefs, an unborn child could just be the shell of a human, waiting for a pre-existing spirit to enter it. And while it may be a serious matter for them to determine whether or not to abort, they believe that the pre-existing spirit that was meant for that body, will still be born in another body. And/or, in the case of severe deformation, they believe God already knows the body is a “dud” (so to speak) and will place a pre-existing spirit in another body.
Along with this, their doctrine of progression requires that a pre-existing spirit experience living on this earth, so it is important for them that the combination of spirit and body is born and takes a breath. That is the sign for them that the spirit has experienced existing in a body, which is required for progressing to godhood.
Then there is their belief of free will, which overrides everything, it seems. Because rape and incest are forced, any resulting pregnancy is also forced. The free will of the mother of the unborn has been violated. When allowing abortion for this reason, the life of the unborn is a secondary consideration ( if considered at all). The free will of the mother is the primary, or, only consideration.
Their concept of free will has a morality applied to it, in that they believe it exists as a primary reality of everything. They don’t believe God can violate free will (as they understand it).
Mormonism’s moraliity is also pragmatic in its application. What is good is relative to the circumstance. Where, Catholic morality is very specific in defining an intended and known evil act as always being evil, and cannot be made good by circumstance.
So with these two beliefs, an unborn child could just be the shell of a human, waiting for a pre-existing spirit to enter it. And while it may be a serious matter for them to determine whether or not to abort, they believe that the pre-existing spirit that was meant for that body, will still be born in another body. And/or, in the case of severe deformation, they believe God already knows the body is a “dud” (so to speak) and will place a pre-existing spirit in another body.
Along with this, their doctrine of progression requires that a pre-existing spirit experience living on this earth, so it is important for them that the combination of spirit and body is born and takes a breath. That is the sign for them that the spirit has experienced existing in a body, which is required for progressing to godhood.
Then there is their belief of free will, which overrides everything, it seems. Because rape and incest are forced, any resulting pregnancy is also forced. The free will of the mother of the unborn has been violated. When allowing abortion for this reason, the life of the unborn is a secondary consideration ( if considered at all). The free will of the mother is the primary, or, only consideration.
Their concept of free will has a morality applied to it, in that they believe it exists as a primary reality of everything. They don’t believe God can violate free will (as they understand it).
Mormonism’s moraliity is also pragmatic in its application. What is good is relative to the circumstance. Where, Catholic morality is very specific in defining an intended and known evil act as always being evil, and cannot be made good by circumstance.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Coptic Christian and Rebecca,
Your perspectives and insight just show how damaging false doctrine can be to society…
Jesus Christ is the Truth…not a philosophy. What we do to the least, we do to Christ.
Your perspectives and insight just show how damaging false doctrine can be to society…
Jesus Christ is the Truth…not a philosophy. What we do to the least, we do to Christ.
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CopticChristian
Guest
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Naf623
Guest
The only place I learned anything about Catholics was at the Catholic school I attended. In history lessons, religion lessons and, of course, in mass.
Never had anything taught about any other religion from the lessons at church, and it’s no part of any curriculum; I’ve studied them all, and taught most.
Genesis 1:26
“And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
Clear as day.
Interesting, as many of my classmates were permitted to, despite not being catholic and really only getting up due to the fact that (as youths) the forbidden nature of the wine was a reason for dares and laughs.
I think I’m getting better
transitive verb
1: to procreate as the father : sire
As far as I know, there’s only one way for that to happen in the ‘natural sense’.
Definition from Collins English Dictionary:
As I pointed out, we believe God works by natural laws (as, I thought: certain you’ll correct me if I’m wrong; do you?), although we do not know all (or probably even most, if any) of these. Therefore whatever the means employed, they were natural, and produced a child that grew naturally inside the virgin Mary. Both the Bible and Book of Mormon describe Mary as being a virgin, and this is what we teach.
- To cause or create (repetition begets boredom)
- To father
Only in the same sense that you teach that we do not have priesthood authority or the Holy Spirit: by way of teaching that you are the only ones who do. This is the same teaching that we have: we are the only church on the earth (as there can be only one true church of God, any church would have to teach the same), and the only one with the correct divinely appointed priesthood authority.Your church does teach the last one and I have read quite a few LDS who defend that teaching. The whole “great apostasy” is based on lost and restored authority.
No, we do not teach that Jesus’ mortal life was necessary for Him to become God; we teach that He is the other in Genesis where the scriptures constantly say ‘let us’. That under His Father’s guidance and direction He created the world; that He is Lord of the Old Testament.
As I have tried to point out previously, what you are trying to question is the ways of God. He will act in whatever way He sees fit, and it is not for us to decide if that is right, if it seems befitting of His character, or if it appears to make sense. Gods ways are truth and righteousness, and by questioning how He acts, you are claiming greater knowledge, understanding and authority than He has.
of those issues up to the individual believer and their “conscience”, even on the issues listed in your response.
I gaurantee you that I could get a different answer from each Mormon on how the authorities in the Mormon church teach on these issues, and very few would feel confident enough to declare infallibly that a certain issue is right or wrong.
I feel extremely confident, as should all other members, in answering with documented church teaching that;
Homosexuality is a sin and is never acceptable. (Like other violations of the law of chastity, homosexual activity is a serious sin. - lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=1f53991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD)
Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and serious consequences await those who break marriage covenants (We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. - lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html)
Misuse of drugs is harmful both physically and spiritually, leads to addictions which affect our ability to make correct choices (Anything harmful that people purposefully take into their bodies is not in harmony with the Word of Wisdom. This is especially true of illegal drugs, which can destroy those who become addicted to them. Stay entirely away from them. Do not experiment with them. The abuse of prescription drugs also leads to destructive addiction. - lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=true&locale=0&sourceId=56c6991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD)
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Naf623
Guest
Contraception is not a moral issue at all (with, in my opinion, the possible exeception of so called ‘morning after’ controls). I’m not aware of any kind of preventative contraceptive that the church has any issue with, leaving the decision down to the married couple. (lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2865991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD)
And let’s not forget that even the Catholic church (now, finally) deems condoms permissible in Africa to help stem the AIDS problem.
…entering Jericho?
…leading Egyptians to their death in the sea?
…It’s your only son (Abraham)?
Or how about
…it’s a religious crusade blessed by the pope?
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Denise1957
Guest
Quote from above post:The only place I learned anything about Catholics was at the Catholic school I attended. In history lessons, religion lessons and, of course, in mass.
Never had anything taught about any other religion from the lessons at church, and it’s no part of any curriculum; I’ve studied them all, and taught most.
Genesis 1:26
“And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
Clear as day.
Interesting, as many of my classmates were permitted to, despite not being catholic and really only getting up due to the fact that (as youths) the forbidden nature of the wine was a reason for dares and laughs.
I think I’m getting better
Definition from Collins English Dictionary:
As I pointed out, we believe God works by natural laws (as, I thought: certain you’ll correct me if I’m wrong; do you?), although we do not know all (or probably even most, if any) of these. Therefore whatever the means employed, they were natural, and produced a child that grew naturally inside the virgin Mary. Both the Bible and Book of Mormon describe Mary as being a virgin, and this is what we teach.
- To cause or create (repetition begets boredom)
- To father
Only in the same sense that you teach that we do not have priesthood authority or the Holy Spirit: by way of teaching that you are the only ones who do. This is the same teaching that we have: we are the only church on the earth (as there can be only one true church of God, any church would have to teach the same), and the only one with the correct divinely appointed priesthood authority.
No, we do not teach that Jesus’ mortal life was necessary for Him to become God; we teach that He is the other in Genesis where the scriptures constantly say ‘let us’. That under His Father’s guidance and direction He created the world; that He is Lord of the Old Testament.
As I have tried to point out previously, what you are trying to question is the ways of God. He will act in whatever way He sees fit, and it is not for us to decide if that is right, if it seems befitting of His character, or if it appears to make sense. Gods ways are truth and righteousness, and by questioning how He acts, you are claiming greater knowledge, understanding and authority than He has.
I feel extremely confident, as should all other members, in answering with documented church teaching that;
Homosexuality is a sin and is never acceptable. (Like other violations of the law of chastity, homosexual activity is a serious sin. - lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=1f53991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD)
Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and serious consequences await those who break marriage covenants (We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. - lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html)
Misuse of drugs is harmful both physically and spiritually, leads to addictions which affect our ability to make correct choices (Anything harmful that people purposefully take into their bodies is not in harmony with the Word of Wisdom. This is especially true of illegal drugs, which can destroy those who become addicted to them. Stay entirely away from them. Do not experiment with them. The abuse of prescription drugs also leads to destructive addiction. - lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=true&locale=0&sourceId=56c6991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD)
'Interesting, as many of my classmates were permitted to, despite not being Catholic and really only getting up due to the fact that (as youths) the forbidden nature of the wine was a reason for dares and laughs."
Question: so was the priest aware that the youths that you were with were not, in fact, Catholic, yet they were still allowed to receive the wine? (The Precious Blood, for Catholics).
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Naf623
Guest
As far as I am aware, yes. All were invited to, I had the impression they would have been happy enough for me to join in as well, despite my open differences in belief.
The priests (friars, in fact) also taught various lessons: I had a Fr. Murphy for
history and Latin; Fr. Rolls for geography, Fr. Lyons for maths, Fr. Campbell for religion and the headmaster was a Fr. Middleton; so they were all well aware of their students and that many had no Catholic background at all…
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Denise1957
Guest
Well, this is interesting. Do you mind if I ask - do you recall how the friars specifically invited all to receive the Precious Blood?
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Miriam1947
Guest
Stephen168
New member
wrong!!
Stephen168
New member
Nothing secret about them. You were free to mock them. That’s Mormonism.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
It wavers…we’ll see how it is with them as laws are passed and their finances are threatened.Let us not forget that they do take a stance on somethings, not everything.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
We are made in the image of God. God is not made in the image of man.
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 1:22-23[/BIBLEDRB]
God begets God. God creates man.
Do you understand the difference?
God is not bound by any law. He is the creator of them. The conception of Jesus Christ being a miracle, which by definition means, there is not a natural explanation.
LDS teachings equivocate what virgin birth means. Going down heretical lines of the Father having sexual relations with one of His own creations, a daughter. The miracle being for LDS, that Mary remained a virgin.
One is a false teacher then, and it isn’t the Catholic Church, whose authority comes from Jesus Christ.
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oh come now, let us have full disclosure. Your pearl of great price teaches that a council of gods oversaw the creation.
No, we are using the intellect and reason that God gave us, under the protection of the Holy Spirit, who is God, and helps us discern what is false.
There’s that doctrine of polygamy, which is an affront on the family.
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