How Do Those Who Call Themselves Catholic Support Gay Marriage?

[aidanbradypop]

You have a wonderful night

 

[AnimalSpirits]

You know what I haven’t seen in this thread yet?

An answer to my initial question by a Catholic supporting gay marriage.

I’ve seen a lot of skirting around the edges, and the same old tripe you typically see when this issue is brought up - “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being sinful!”

But no one - no one who calls themselves Catholic and supports gay marriage has provided a rationale.

Why is that?

Catholic me supported, or rather, didn’t object to. gay marriage on the basis that civil marriage isn’t a sacrament, it’s an institution for use by Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Orthodox, Muslims, and so forth. These groups can have disparate definitions of marriage. In a secular society, why should the views of a religious views of ~20% of the population dictate the use of a civil institution for everyone else?

 

[kanrok]

Catholic me supported, or rather, didn’t object to. gay marriage on the basis that civil marriage isn’t a sacrament, it’s an institution for use by Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Orthodox, Muslims, and so forth. These groups can have disparate definitions of marriage. In a secular society, why should the views of a religious views of ~20% of the population dictate the use of a civil institution for everyone else?

Why should the wants of 4% of the population dictate the use of a civil institution for everyone else?

Actually it would be way less than 4%, since history has taught us that only a small percentage of that 4% avails themselves of the civil “right” to gay marriage.

What disparate definitions are there amongst Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Orthodox and Muslims?

I’m only aware of one definition - at least until it was recently re-defined for us.

 

[esieffe]

There is an old saying which if you contrast it against the many threads I see, is now meaningless, and that is, “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.” The biggest rebuttal we drag out it seems and I have been totally guilty of it myself] is by saying:

1. How can you can you call yourself a Christian and…
2. How can you call yourself a Catholic and yet…
3. Some combination of numbers 1 and 2.

I “confess” to the OP, I have done it too, so this is not me calling anyone out. But I did this while I was in my “wandering in the desert period” that is, when I stepped not away in my belief or love for God, but when I turned my back on his church. *
Part of why I did that was that I either ran into people who, in my not so humble estimation, at the time, were country club Christians, or they were fire and brimstone sanctimonious fear mongers, as handed down by me in my infinite wisdom! Had I not voluntarily gone into the desert, the Lord should have kicked my rear end out there himself!

I am still coming to grips with the area of doctrine that says that we are to admonish bad behavior in others. That is MY problem not yours. Pope Francis said “Who am I to judge?” Clearly he has stood firm on Church doctrine, but has found such a loving way to pass that along to us! My understanding of following Christ’s example means that I must lead by example, and as for
for admonishing bad behavior, other than those who are in my direct care, I must do so in such a way that does not drive them away. That serves no good purpose! Just because someone is in error in their beliefs, understanding, or choices in one area, [based on cannon law, and my limited understanding of it ]does not mean that they are totally outside the church as a whole. [beyond redemption in other words]

I do not disagree with church doctrine on any of the beaten to death subjects we all talk about here. Clearly my approach here is considered too soft by many, but I feel for my own part that exercising “love the sinner, hate the sin” and so on is better served at first by practicing compassion in our approach to all of God’s children whenever and however possible.*

 

[esieffe]

Dustin I am so sorry for both you and your friend. At least you should be comforted in the knowledge for doing the right thing by reaching out to your friend with love. My guess is that you were among the few people that he was sad to be leaving.

Frank

Same here Dustin.

 

[SMGS127]

Sorry about your loss.

But the problem with anecdotes is that they cannot be tested.

Are you asserting that being faithful to the Church’s teachings causes suicide?

If so, I would take issue with that.

Untreated major depression is the cause.

I think what he’s asserting is that extremely harsh methods of “teaching” have led to an extremely high suicide rate among LGBT individuals, especially teenagers. As someone who grew up in the South, it was basically like “if you have SSA, don’t ever talk about them because they make you a bad person.” Telling my mom I was attracted to girls was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. I felt personally like I’d be disowned by my parents. It turns out I was wrong about being disowned (though my parents still didn’t like it when I was dating women), but the rampant homophobia in our culture makes even DISCUSSING SSA horrifying for many LGBT teens.

This experience, as well as the experience of Catholic youth growing up alongside many of these bullied and outcast gay teenagers, makes Catholic youth (and gay youth) associate religion with rampant homophobia and hatred. This is not what the Catholic Church teaches, but you wouldn’t know it from listening to many Catholics in the media or in your local parish!

Even your own posts drip of disdain for LGBT individuals as if they are somehow lower human beings for their sins than for anyone else’s. When people try to give you examples of why Catholics might view LGBT issues different than the Church (e.g. they see a harder push against gay “marriage” than against divorce), you accuse them of hijacking the thread and don’t even address the issue, other than to say divorce is no longer an issue. Well, to be honest, divorce IS an issue too! Sexual sin is sexual sin; contraception, divorce, SS’M’ all need to be addressed. Targeting on only the sins of the gay community screams of hypocrisy to many, many people, and it certainly does not help evangelize the faith to lost Catholics and those in the gay community.

Pope Francis has told us to tone our language down and treat gays with love and compassion FIRST. Be firm on our moral doctrine but show love FIRST. The fact that I still see people perpetuating myths about gay people (“gay people marry at much lower rates” [based on nationwide data when only 1/3 of gay people live in a state where civil “marriage” is legal for them] is one you said yourself) that are almost entirely irrelevant and meant to sow annoyance at them shows to me that people still view gays as “others” that they don’t want to associate with by any means at all. We are not the Jehovah’s Witnesses; Christ taught us to evangelize in every community and show love and a warm heart to every community. Perpetuating falsehoods and other cynical acts towards the gay community are part of the REASON Catholic youth are refusing to believe in the Catholic doctrine; they don’t truly understand it, because many of the practicing Catholics they know are going way too far in trying to be “anti-gay.”

 

[kanrok]

Well, you certainly have the talking points down.

Do you support gay marriage?

If so, why?

 

[AnimalSpirits]

Why should the wants of 4% of the population dictate the use of a civil institution for everyone else?

Actually it would be way less than 4%, since history has taught us that only a small percentage of that 4% avails themselves of the civil “right” to gay marriage.

What disparate definitions are there amongst Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Orthodox and Muslims?

I’m only aware of one definition - at least until it was recently re-defined for us.

The gay population doesn’t particularly care about how you use civil marriage- nobody is forced into a gay marriage. I don’t expect the ability of a man and a woman to submit the requisite paperwork should be at all effected.

And first, many faiths hold that only members of that faith can get married- a bit of a bother for the rest. The rituals required, and of course when and how the marriage can be terminated seem like fairly major possible distinctions.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Well, you certainly have the talking points down.

Do you support gay marriage?

If so, why?

Are you serious right now? That was a beautiful message straight from the heart and this is what you have to say? I Pray that you will some day release the hate. It really breaks my heart to see how you react to post on here. So cold and almost heartless at some points. I wish you well my friend. You are in my prayers! For the sake of charity I will retire for this thread

 

[SMGS127]

Well, you certainly have the talking points down.

Do you support gay marriage?

If so, why?

Of course not, I’m an orthodox Catholic.

But judging from your tone, you didn’t listen to a thing I said, so I will join aidan in withdrawing from this thread.

 

[kanrok]

There is an old saying which if you contrast it against the many threads I see, is now meaningless, and that is, “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.” The biggest rebuttal we drag out it seems and I have been totally guilty of it myself] is by saying:

1. How can you can you call yourself a Christian and…
2. How can you call yourself a Catholic and yet…
3. Some combination of numbers 1 and 2.

I “confess” to the OP, I have done it too, so this is not me calling anyone out. But I did this while I was in my “wandering in the desert period” that is, when I stepped not away in my belief or love for God, but when I turned my back on his church. *
Part of why I did that was that I either ran into people who, in my not so humble estimatio*n, at the time, were country club Christians, or they were fire and brimstone sanctimonious fear mongers, as handed down by me in my infinite wisdom! Had I not voluntarily gone into the desert, the Lord should have kicked my rear end out there himself!

I am still coming to grips with the area of doctrine that says that we are to admonish bad behavior in others. That is MY problem not yours. Pope Francis said “Who am I to judge?” Clearly he has stood firm on Church doctrine, but has found such a loving way to pass that along to us! My understanding of following Christ’s example means that I must lead by example, and as for
for admonishing bad behavior, other than those who are in my direct care, I must do so in such a way that does not drive them away. That serves no good purpose! Just because someone is in error in their beliefs, understanding, or choices in one area, [based on cannon law, and my limited understanding of it ]does not mean that they are totally outside the church as a whole. [beyond redemption in other words]

I do not disagree with church doctrine on any of the beaten to death subjects we all talk about here. Clearly my approach here is considered too soft by many, but I feel for my own part that exercising “love the sinner, hate the sin” and so on is better served at first by practicing compassion in our approach to all of God’s children whenever and however possible.

There is nothing wrong with your approach.

“Hate the sin but love the sinner” is the proper way to deal with this, as well as any other issue about which we are taught.

But my sense is that those who go out of their way to change the subject in this thread believe that there is no “sin” involved.

We are offered all these other issues to discuss instead of focusing in on the subject of the thread.

My suggestion to those who want to veer away from the issue is: start your own thread.

 

[kanrok]

Of course not, I’m an orthodox Catholic.

But judging from your tone, you didn’t listen to a thing I said, so I will join aidan in withdrawing from this thread.

You don’t like my tone?

Can’t help you there.

When you suggest that I drip with disdain for LGBT individuals, you are making a value judgment without knowing a thing about me.

 

[frobert]

Sorry about your loss.

But the problem with anecdotes is that they cannot be tested.

Are you asserting that being faithful to the Church’s teachings causes suicide?

If so, I would take issue with that.

Untreated major depression is the cause.

I didn’t read that in Dustin’s post. What I read is that he reached out to a friend who hurting.

 

[frobert]

There is an old saying which if you contrast it against the many threads I see, is now meaningless, and that is, “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.” The biggest rebuttal we drag out it seems and I have been totally guilty of it myself] is by saying:

1. How can you can you call yourself a Christian and…
2. How can you call yourself a Catholic and yet…
3. Some combination of numbers 1 and 2.

I “confess” to the OP, I have done it too, so this is not me calling anyone out. But I did this while I was in my “wandering in the desert period” that is, when I stepped not away in my belief or love for God, but when I turned my back on his church. *
Part of why I did that was that I either ran into people who, in my not so humble estimatio*n, at the time, were country club Christians, or they were fire and brimstone sanctimonious fear mongers, as handed down by me in my infinite wisdom! Had I not voluntarily gone into the desert, the Lord should have kicked my rear end out there himself!

I am still coming to grips with the area of doctrine that says that we are to admonish bad behavior in others. That is MY problem not yours. Pope Francis said “Who am I to judge?” Clearly he has stood firm on Church doctrine, but has found such a loving way to pass that along to us! My understanding of following Christ’s example means that I must lead by example, and as for
for admonishing bad behavior, other than those who are in my direct care, I must do so in such a way that does not drive them away. That serves no good purpose! Just because someone is in error in their beliefs, understanding, or choices in one area, [based on cannon law, and my limited understanding of it ]does not mean that they are totally outside the church as a whole. [beyond redemption in other words]

I do not disagree with church doctrine on any of the beaten to death subjects we all talk about here. Clearly my approach here is considered too soft by many, but I feel for my own part that exercising “love the sinner, hate the sin” and so on is better served at first by practicing compassion in our approach to all of God’s children whenever and however possible.
great post. It should be made sticky.

the problem I see with many of the hard liners is they appear not to be able to deal with emotions very well and revert to the abstract. They put reason over humility. Pope Francis has shown true humility. He is leading by example. I have made some harsh remarks in this and other forums And to correct this disordered behavior in myself I have to remind myself to put myself in the other persons shoes before I hit the submit button.

 

[Nacho45]

First, whose moral values?

That’s what I was asking you.

There are Christian denominations which accept homosexual unions.

Please read my signature line.

You may not agree with them, but you can’t demand that civil laws only reflect your religious belief.

I never asked that they should.

Secondly, civil laws are not based on religious moral values, they are based on the constitution.

Which was based on…religious moral values. Judeo/Christian moral values to be specific.

If you disagree with laws which permit same sex civil marriages, you must challenge them by citing the constitution, not your individual beliefs.

Not really, but I am curious why you think I must.

If your objective is only to prove that same sex unions contradict church doctrine, you’re right.

That is, I believe, the purpose of this thread.

If you expect catholic politicians to oppose same sex unions based on religion, rather than the constitution you’re wrong.

I expect very little from politicians, especially in the way of morality. You may not want to keep referencing the Constitution in relation to marriage. Marriage isn’t a constitutional right. Many claim it is, a common misconception, but it isn’t.

Politicians must be guided by the constitution.

That would be nice. Unfortunately, that isn’t happening in many areas, including this one.

 

[Nacho45]

I have been debating on whether or not to share this story. I have now decide to go ahead and do so.

“How Do Those Who Call Themselves Catholic Support Gay Marriage”

Tricky question but one that really cuts me deep. In high school, one of my best friends was a wonderful guy of character. He would do anything for you! He cared so much for people and loved to laugh and sing. His voice was truly amazing! He was a devout Catholic and attended Mass every chance he could. He loved God so dearly and Church also.

One day after baseball practice we were sitting there and chatting. He said, “Dustin I have something to tell you and I do not want you to hate me for it but I want to share this with you because you are a great friend and I feel as if I am lying to you.”

I told him that I would never hate him and be honest with me.

He stated that he was gay and didn’t know how to tell his parents about it. He had heard his father talking about homosexuals and about how they were an abominations…etc (I will spare the choice words he used). He was terrified that by “coming out of the closet” his family and faith would disown him.

I had no clue what kind of advice to give him so I simply stated that I would love him no matter what and would be with him when he decided to tell his parents about it.

We never got that chance. A month later they found him hanging in his closet. He left no letter or ever told his parents his “secret.” The guilt he felt from Church and family for being what he was born as was too much for one beautiful, caring, and Catholic guy to handle.

I hear stories like this often, and certainly they are important and heartfelt; however, I fail to understand how people so often miss the fact what they think was the direct cause never really was (whether in a situation like this or under different circumstances). Speak with knowledgeable psychiatrists or psychologists and they will happily explain there are other deeper underlying issues at play. I don’t know the details of your specific story so I will not speculate on the possibilities.

I will share a story of my own, though the ending is not nearly as sad. I have an immediate family member who is homosexual, but this family member understands Church teaching and has never once stated it was wrong, in fact, agrees according to Christianity it is a sinful lifestyle to live. This family member also is against homosexual “marriages” stating everything claimed to be desired from a “marriage” can be had by other legal means without ever infringing on the sacrament of marriage or redefining marriage to fit 3% of the population in an act of oversensitive responsiveness and political correctness. This family member understands emotions and political ideology directly hamper the process of rational thought. This family member also strongly feels the entire LGBT community has lost its collective mind.

Personal experiences (positive and negative) hold great power over our views and reactions, so I think we should acknowledge this fact and make a great effort not to allow feelings contributed to these experiences to influence the rational thought process. We also should not allow them to alter our views of what God has provided for us as right and wrong, good and bad, or righteous and sinful. I will end this post here because this topic could literally go on for hours in a personal discussion and weeks in a forum such as this to cover all of the things rolling around in my mind right now.

 

[Nacho45]

You can only push so far before someone starts pushing back and we should not be surprised at how hard some are pushing. Correct?

As long as this is understood when Christianity pushes back with great strength, though I don’t hold much faith it will. There is also pushing too far. I believe we are square in the middle of that phase right now.

 

[DexUK]

I’m going to come out of the closet here.

I am a Catholic who has absolutely no problem with the concept of ‘Gay Marriage’.

I’ll tell you what I do have trouble with though… That’s the ridiculously misunderstood concept of the Biblical ‘proscription’ of homosexuality.

Wherever homosexual activity is actually directly mentioned (rather than indirectly, as with Leviticus) it is related as a change of behaviour and in respect of wilful rebellion against that which is authentic to the person concerned.

St Paul condemns those who act contrary to their nature. Since one’s nature is God-given, to act contrary to it for any reason, including ‘fashionable behaviour’ such as might have been prevalent in some of the societies that St Paul evangelised, is to reject a gift from God. Rejecting anything from God (knowingly) is sinful.

Men created the laws that discriminated against homosexuals. Men who couldn’t see beyond their own experience of life and couldn’t accept anyone else’s instincts as being authentic if different from their own. It is pure arrogance to decide what love is good and what love is bad. ALL love is good. Love IS good. Love comes from God and God is incapable of giving us anything bad.

We all need to catch up with what God has taught us and do away with the crushing injustices that we heap upon our brothers and sisters who may not share the same desires we do, but have no other desires than those that they have been given.

To crush a person’s love for another has got to be one of the biggest sins imaginable.

I had hemmed and hawed about this for a long time, but in my heart of hearts I’ve known what is right. There cannot be any argument. For this reason, I have to approve of gay marriage. My faith in God forces me to do so.

 

[Nacho45]

This is an astonishing spin on what the Church teaches, what the Scriptures reveal and what Holy Tradition holds as truth. It also opens wide the door for additional immoralities to be justified by using the same philosophical approach.

You are correct on one thing. There cannot be any argument. The Church teaches it is wrong and has placed this in its Catechism. That ends the argument for a Catholic.

 

[frobert]

What’s the purpose of the question? It’s obvious that gay marriage is legal in many states. Whether you are for it or not matters little at this point. If you want to use gay marriage as a litmus test for being a true catholic then discuss it with your confessor. While you are doing so you can also discuss masterbation, pre marital sex and contraceptive sex. If you have energy to spare use it to write your congress critters.