How Do Those Who Call Themselves Catholic Support Gay Marriage?

[frobert]

…telling someone who identifies as Catholic and who refuses the Church’s teachings on homosexuality to be careful about invoking a God they’re only nominally following is “harsh and uncalled for”? There’s nothing to get away with.

Lochias, as a gay Catholic I can tell you that it is very difficult for a gay person to accept some teachings when every tissue in your body tells you what you are doing is normal. Thank God for Pope Francis who is encouraging gay men and women to come back to church and pray that God give them the grace to know and love him in total. Many are accepting his challenge. I am grateful that I have a very welcoming and understanding confessor. I pray for you and others that have a narrower view of homosexuality than the Pope and that you open your hearts in a like manner. I don’t mean to be nasty when I am say that many Catholics do not appear to be following the Holy Father’s lead to tone the rhetoric.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I was speaking of willful, knowing, continual sin. I should have made that more clear, I guess.

That makes much for sense. Thank you.

I know many gay Catholics as well as other gay Christians. They are very much faithful and devout in all things. Sadly I also know many gay people that have turned their backs on God and Christianity. When I ask them why, they ALWAYS state that God and Church turned on them. It is sad that they feel that way. God nor Church ever turns their back on anyone, yet they get that feeling from people that judge them for whom they love rather than by their other fruits. I am glad the Church does not judge me for my sins or I would never leave the house lol.

Indeed. But one has to want to quit sinning and accept that forgiveness, and then strive towards not sinning anymore. God doesn’t just wave a magic wand and say “all is forgiven”!

Boy I wish there was a magic wand sometimes lol. Should we not leave that up to God though?

 

[Lochias]

That makes much for sense. Thank you.

I know many gay Catholics as well as other gay Christians. They are very much faithful and devout in all things. Sadly I also know many gay people that have turned their backs on God and Christianity. When I ask them why, they ALWAYS state that God and Church turned on them. It is sad that they feel that way. God nor Church ever turns their back on anyone, yet they get that feeling from people that judge them for whom they love rather than by their other fruits. I am glad the Church does not judge me for my sins or I would never leave the house lol.

We can still judge the ***actions ***of ourselves and others as sinful. If we couldn’t do that, we would have no way to know what was sinful and not.

Boy I wish there was a magic wand sometimes lol. Should we not leave that up to God though?

See above. Only God knows what’s in the heart of any given person, but that doesn’t mean we simply pat someone’s hand who is engaging in action that we know by the instruction of our faith to be sinful. It’s Biblical and right to call someone out on their behavior, first by themselves, if they refuse to act by the creeds and vows that they’ve taken.

What good is it to be Christian if we blindly accept every bad thing a person might do with an “Oh well, that’s between him and God?” It is our ***duty ***to engage in fraternal remonstration when called for. That’s Biblical.

 

[Lochias]

Lochias, as a gay Catholic I can tell you that it is very difficult for a gay person to accept some teachings when every tissue in your body tells you what you are doing is normal.

But that’s not a struggle unique to gay people at all. My own tissues scream at me sometimes to go out and sleep with every willing female I can find, but that’s not what I’m supposed to do either. I don’t say that to minimize your cross, but to point out that it’s just one of many that we all bear.

Thank God for Pope Francis who is encouraging gay men and women to come back to church and pray that God give them the grace to know and love him in total. Many are accepting his challenge. I am grateful that I have a very welcoming and understanding confessor. I pray for you and others that have a narrower view of homosexuality than the Pope and that you open your hearts in a like manner. I don’t mean to be nasty when I am say that many Catholics do not appear to be following the Holy Father’s lead to tone the rhetoric.

You are taking some of what Pope Francis has said out of context. While we are called to encourage our brothers and sisters in all of their struggles, mine and yours included, we are not to accept sinful actions blindly. The Pope himself has said “I am a loyal son of the Church”, and the Church teaches that homosexual acts and other sexual acts outside of wedlock are sinful.

 

[aidanbradypop]

We can still judge the ***actions ***of ourselves and others as sinful. If we couldn’t do that, we would have no way to know what was sinful and not.

No argument here.

What good is it to be Christian if we blindly accept every bad thing a person might do with an “Oh well, that’s between him and God?” It is our ***duty ***to engage in fraternal remonstration when called for. That’s Biblical.

I do not believe it is a blind acceptance of the sin but rather the person. God accepts us as we are and the Episcopal Church does the same. TEC accepts every child of God as equal and claims that every child of God deserves every care of the Church.

In states where same sex civil unions are not legal, TEC does not bless them two people or their union. Even in states where it is legal, you still have some that are “iffy” on the matter and their concerns are heard.

I believe with prayer and love we will find a place for everyone.

 

[frobert]

We can still judge the ***actions ***of ourselves and others as sinful. If we couldn’t do that, we would have no way to know what was sinful and not.

No one is taking this away from you. You can certainly determine for yourself what is sinful and what is not and you can state the church’s position on it but where many of us feel it crosses the line when we are attacked. I know attack is a strong word but it is what some perceive when you throw into someone’s face that they are sinful for something they are struggling with.

It seems it is too much to ask people to tone down their rhetoric. Unless someone specifically tells me otherwise or asks questions I assume that they are familiar with the church’s teaching. On another thread a 24 yr old gay male asked for help in how to tell his parents that he was gay. He repeatedly got bombarded with church teachings even after he explained his position and that he understood what the church’s teachings are. Admittedly he said some things that put him in a bad light but that was no reason for people to attack him and call him names such as bigot. The issue was how does a gay person tell his parents to minimize the grief that they would likely feel, grief is something that any Cristian should be able to empathize with.

 

[Lochias]

I do not believe it is a blind acceptance of the sin but rather the person. God accepts us as we are and the Episcopal Church does the same. TEC accepts every child of God as equal and claims that every child of God deserves every care of the Church.

No-one has ever said that God doesn’t love each and every one of us, but “accepts us as we are” could be misconstrued to imply that God also accepts their sin.

Parents love their children and accept them unconditionally (or should), too, but we do not tolerate children doing things that are harmful to themselves or others, whether or not they are aware of that harm.

In states where same sex civil unions are not legal, TEC does not bless them two people or their union. Even in states where it is legal, you still have some that are “iffy” on the matter and their concerns are heard.

So the TEC capitulates to the whims of the state, and not to God’s commandments?

I believe with prayer and love we will find a place for everyone.

What do you mean “a place for everyone”?

 

[frobert]

But that’s not a struggle unique to gay people at all. My own tissues scream at me sometimes to go out and sleep with every willing female I can find, but that’s not what I’m supposed to do either.

Good for you, you are overcoming your demons.

I don’t say that to minimize your cross, but to point out that it’s just one of many that we all bear.

I appreciate your concern but there is no need to point out something I already know

You are taking some of what Pope Francis has said out of context. While we are called to encourage our brothers and sisters in all of their struggles, mine and yours included, we are not to accept sinful actions blindly.The Pope himself has said “I am a loyal son of the Church”, and the Church teaches that homosexual acts and other sexual acts outside of wedlock are sinful

Did you ever think that there is a slight possibility that you may be the one taking the Pope’s words out of context? I am sorry but I don’t believe the Pope was saying you should assume that anyone who sins is unaware that they are sinning or said to blindly call them out on their sins and to give advice where it is not appreciated or asked for. It might be a long-shot but there is an outside chance that someone may be offended and just might come to the conclusion that you are being unchristian.

 

[Lochias]

No one is taking this away from you. You can certainly determine for yourself what is sinful and what is not and you can state the church’s position on it but where many of us feel it crosses the line when we are attacked. I know attack is a strong word but it is what some perceive when you throw into someone’s face that they are sinful for something they are struggling with.

 

[aidanbradypop]

No-one has ever said that God doesn’t love each and every one of us, but “accepts us as we are” could be misconstrued to imply that God also accepts their sin.

God does accept us as we are. We are sinners in need of His love and mercy.

Parents love their children and accept them unconditionally (or should), too, but we do not tolerate children doing things that are harmful to themselves or others, whether or not they are aware of that harm.

But you are stating this from a heterosexual mindset Lochias. To someone that is gay, they are not harming or hurting anyone including them.

So the TEC capitulates to the whims of the state, and not to God’s commandments?

If that is how you choose to take it. In 1976, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church declared that “homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church"

What do you mean “a place for everyone”?

see above

 

[Lochias]

Good for you, you are overcoming your demons.

Not hardly, but I’m trying.

I appreciate your concern but there is no need to point out something I already know

If you play a discordant note in the middle of the horn section, people are going to notice.

Did you ever think that there is a slight possibility that you may be the one taking the Pope’s words out of context?

Nope.

I am sorry

Are you really…?

but I don’t believe the Pope was saying you should assume that anyone who sins is unaware that they are sinning or said to blindly call them out on their sins and to give advice where it is not appreciated or asked for.

He didn’t have to, it goes without saying.

It might be a long-shot but there is an outside chance that someone may be offended and just might come to the conclusion that you are being unchristian.

All I can do is try to lead the horse to water. If a Catholic is offended by being called about their not following Church teaching, then maybe they need to listen to what their conscience is trying to tell them.

 

[Lochias]

God does accept us as we are. We are sinners in need of His love and mercy.

Thank you for clarifying.

But you are stating this from a heterosexual mindset Lochias. To someone that is gay, they are not harming or hurting anyone including them.

Then they have to be told otherwise. What they then do with that information is up to them.

If that is how you choose to take it. In 1976, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church declared that “homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church"

The Church has said that long before 1976. We just don’t condone sinful actions…indeed, we cannot.

 

[frobert]

frobert;11456286:

I don’t chide people for what they’re struggling with…all we can ask of our Christian brother and sisters, for the sake of their souls, is to struggle, and to be there with them in their struggles.
And so Catholics are then not allowed to be concerned with the safety of this man’s eternal soul?

Thank you for your concern.

I erased something that I had written because it had to do with prayer which I take seriously and may have come across facetiously so rather than take a chance with it

I will only say that I am also concerned for man’s soul and in thanksgiving for your concern I will say a prayer for yours beyond my general prayers.

Thank you, I have learned something personal in our exchanges.
Frank

 

[Lochias]

Lochias;11456412:

Thank you for your concern.

I erased something that I had written because it had to do with prayer which I take seriously and may have come across facetiously so rather than take a chance with it

I will only say that I am also concerned for man’s soul and in thanksgiving for your concern I will say a prayer for yours beyond my general prayers.

Thank you, I have learned something personal in our exchanges.
Frank

As have I, thank you. I will offer my sufferings up for you today.

 

[Nacho45]

Statistics are a strange thing. Mark Twain once wrote there are three levels of lies: Lies, d***ed lies and statistics.

Didn’t he author a lot of fiction?

What is your solution? Ignore all evidence and believe what makes you feel good or observe the evidence, to include statistics, and make a rational and informed decision based on the propensity of that evidence? I choose the second option.

 

[Nacho45]

I am sorry that you are unable to make the connection. You are in my prayers.

I appreciate prayers from anyone willing to offer them, thank you! However, an explanation would have been more than enough.

 

[Nacho45]

Yes you are correct. Sadly, some are “hateful” to the Church and maybe even towards family. Please be careful, however, and not group everyone in with the extreme few.

This is kind out there for me. So all of us that sin, including yourself, hate Christ? Wow.

Bit harsh and uncalled for but I am sure you will get away with it.

I am confused as to how abiding by the teachings of the Church and our Lord is “hateful”. I’d God hateful?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I am confused as to how abiding by the teachings of the Church and our Lord is “hateful”. I’d God hateful?

Yes you are confused. That is not what I said.

Have a great day and Christ be with you!

 

[frobert]

Didn’t he author a lot of fiction?

What is your solution? Ignore all evidence and believe what makes you feel good or observe the evidence, to include statistics, and make a rational and informed decision based on the propensity of that evidence? I choose the second option.

I was being playful when I posted that.

Please don’t ignore science. Science coupled with a good spiritual foundation provides order, discipline and meaning in our crazy upside down world. Add a little non-sinful feel good stuff. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

 

[Nacho45]

The divorce rate has, in fact, retreated a great deal since its peak in the 1980’s. A more preferable measure might be the percent of active marriages that end in a given year, but alas, I’ve been unable to find such a statistic during my commute.

Does this mean the family unit has begun to strengthen or are there influences perhaps not seen which are warping this information. I still believe it to be inaccurate, but even if it were there are influences to this.

Regardless, it seems that at the very least, marriage is not weakening,

Again, if viewing all of the available information, you will see marriage is becoming weaker than it has ever been.

It’s also true that states which allow gay marriage tend to have lower divorce rates-

I would need to see the information, but I suspect it is altered by the same influences as the other information you have provided. Divorce numbers are less when marriages are fewer.

This is an interesting source of information.

The transformative trends of the past 50 years that have led to a sharp decline in marriage and a rise of new family forms have been shaped by attitudes and behaviors that differ by class, age and race, according to a new Pew Research Center nationwide survey, done in association with TIME, complemented by an analysis of demographic and economic data from the U.S. Census Bureau.

pewsocialtrends.org/2010/11/18/the-decline-of-marriage-and-rise-of-new-families/

As is this

This paper summarizes recent research primarily on the American family in such a way as to highlight the serious family decline of the last few decades.

catholiceducation.org/articles/marriage/mf0002.html

As is this one from Britain

The traditional nuclear family is in decline in Britain as more people chose to live alone or as couples without children, data suggests.

bbc.co.uk/news/10487318

All of these were found on the first page of a Google search.

But, what does all of this (and more available information) mean? It means, as I stated, the family unit is being destroyed by a society that cares more for its immediate wants and flesh desires than it does for anything else. Fathers are absent, mothers push their children on anyone who will get them out of their hair, divorce rates are around 50%, parents aren’t paying child support for the kids they do not want, abortions are at an all-time high as it is being used as a means of birth control, and this list continues. Part of this is the social acceptance of what the Catholic Church declares sinful acts, homosexual unions. I personally know several people who, after multiple children and marriages, decide they suddenly want to become homosexual. I also know people who have stopped being homosexual because it was a “phase” they went through, their words, of sexual experimentation. It all orbits around immediate sexual gratification and the burns of fleshly desire at the expense of personal and family responsibility.