How Do Traditionalists Feel about Divine Mercy?

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No, Floresco was quoting the 1983 Code. The terms are the same, but of course they’re being disallowed in both:

1917: “…ita ut clerici vagi nullatenus admittantur.”

1983: “…ita ut clerici acephali seu vagi minime admittantur.”
Thanks for that. I knew that wanderer was in the code of 1917 and that the mendicants had problems with that word. I couldn’t remember of “headless”, as I call it, was also in 1917. But you have clarified that it’s in 1983.

The end is the same. Such a priest is suspended. It’s not a happy place to be.

My personal problem with the two codes is that I went through canon law for two years between 1978 - 1980. Then in 1983, we were handed a book and told, “Here’s the new code, memorize it.” :eek:

By 1978, we knew that a revision was coming. Pope Paul VI had already said that it needed to be done.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
By the way, Timothy was not talking about Church law, theology or morality. In those areas words are very important. He was talking about squabbles. Just look at the great divide over the Filioque. If we took Timothy literally, we could say that it’s just a word.
I guess we disagree on something else. I think this is a squabble about words.

acephalous vs. independent vs. renegade
 
I guess we disagree on something else. I think this is a squabble about words.

acephalous vs. independent vs. renegade
Not really, it all boils down to a priest who is suspended and has no right to be exercising priestly ministry. Do you disagree with this law?

If you’re in my community and I suspend you, you’er suspended. I don’t care what labels anyone wants to place you in order to soften the fact. You are suspended until I lift the suspension. Therefore, you have no right to function as a priest.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I guess we disagree on something else. I think this is a squabble about words.

acephalous vs. independent vs. renegade
I don’t see that at all. Canon law obviously says there is no such thing as an independent priest, just as there are no independent orders because their superiors grant their faculties and without said faculties, the priest in question is defined, (again…by canon law) as suspended.

You can certainly disagree if you want to …but that does not make you right or correct.
There’s no gray area to this.
 
I don’t see that at all. Canon law obviously says there is no such thing as an independent priest, just as there are no independent orders because their superiors grant their faculties and without said faculties, the priest in question is defined, (again…by canon law) as suspended.

You can certainly disagree if you want to …but that does not make you right or correct.
There’s no gray area to this.
Actually, it does seem to be about words.

To say there are no independent priests is false. There is no permission for independent priests. But there still are many. They have valid orders.

When an independent priests reconciles with the Church, even if he is not permitted to exercise any ministry, he is still a priest until death, and he can still hear a confession in extremis.

So they obviously exist, I could even name some if I had to.

The quibble is over the word “independent” which to some suggests legitimacy. It’s not legitimate.

So “renegade” describes the same thing but emphasizes that this is wrong.
 
I don’t see that at all. Canon law obviously says there is no such thing as an independent priest, just as there are no independent orders because their superiors grant their faculties and without said faculties, the priest in question is defined, (again…by canon law) as suspended.

Does it say anything about independent chapels, or chapels which are owned privately? There are lists of these with Mass times at various sites; sometimes a “pastor” is listed; often is not.
 
Actually, it does seem to be about words.

To say there are no independent priests is false. There is no permission for independent priests. But there still are many. They have valid orders.

When an independent priests reconciles with the Church, even if he is not permitted to exercise any ministry, he is still a priest until death, and he can still hear a confession in extremis.

So they obviously exist, I could even name some if I had to.

The quibble is over the word “independent” which to some suggests legitimacy. It’s not legitimate.

So “renegade” describes the same thing but emphasizes that this is wrong.
I believe Brother JR’s point is that they are not independent. They have a superior, whether it is a bishop or a religious superior, to whom they are supposed to be answering, and they are not doing it. Independent implies that there is no one who has the authority to give them orders.

It is in some ways a semantic game, but it is an important one.
 
By the way, Timothy was not talking about Church law, theology or morality. In those areas words are very important. He was talking about squabbles. Just look at the great divide over the Filioque. If we took Timothy literally, we could say that it’s just a word.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
I don’t believe I have ever posted about Church law.

-Tim-
 
Actually, it does seem to be about words.

To say there are no independent priests is false. There is no permission for independent priests. But there still are many. They have valid orders.

When an independent priests reconciles with the Church, even if he is not permitted to exercise any ministry, he is still a priest until death, and he can still hear a confession in extremis.

So they obviously exist, I could even name some if I had to.

The quibble is over the word “independent” which to some suggests legitimacy. It’s not legitimate.

So “renegade” describes the same thing but emphasizes that this is wrong.
Thanks for the clear summary of the issue. The term used in the CCL is also very good. The word “acephalous” is from Greek meaning “headless”. Such priests are disconnected from their heads - i.e. their authority.
 
You may refute this statement by providing any source from the Church that uses this term and I will gladly apologize for the error. If you can not I would ask if you could do the same.
I have not made an error to apologize for, but I nevertheless owe you an apology. I have been holding a bad attitude to you that, I suspect, is reflected in the tone of my posts. Since I have been criticizing you for your attitude, that pretty much makes me a hypocrite. I do apologize and will try to do better.
 
Actually, it does seem to be about words.

To say there are no independent priests is false. There is no permission for independent priests. But there still are many. They have valid orders.
Every ordained priest has valid orders, even one who has been dismissed for committing crimes. Everyone of those priests in jail for sexual abuse of children has valid orders and will be a priest forever. They are not independent. They are suspended and dismissed from the clerical state, but remain priests. You can even go to confession to one of them, if you can’t find another priest.
So they obviously exist, I could even name some if I had to.
They don’t exist, because they don’t give themselves faculties. Independent presumes authority. A priest who is headless, is one without authority. A priest who is independent would be one who can decide for himself when and where he has faculties. There is no such provision in Canon Law.
The quibble is over the word “independent” which to some suggests legitimacy. It’s not legitimate.
So “renegade” describes the same thing but emphasizes that this is wrong.
The Church deliberately puts the emphasis on the wrong by using terms such as wandering, headless, suspended, renegade, because she wants to make sure that all of us clearly understand that this man has no legitimate right to roam around independently exercising ministry.

Some people want to hide the fact that he has no such right. They throw a lighter term over it, “independent priest.”
Does it say anything about independent chapels, or chapels which are owned privately? There are lists of these with Mass times at various sites; sometimes a “pastor” is listed; often is not.
Canon Law does speak about independent chapels. Male religious and cloistered nuns have the right to independent chapels, which are out of the control of the bishops. Only the superior of the house can grant faculties to celebrate sacraments there. The bishop cannot set foot in them without the permission of the superior. For example, the chapel at EWTN is an independent chapel under the jurisdiction of the Franciscans. The Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament is an independent chapel under the jurisdiction of the Poor Clares. Opus Dei has independent chapels. Every Catholic college and school that is not diocesan has an independent chapel.

These chapels may not function as parishes unless they have the permission of the local bishop. For example,you can’t get married at the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament, even though it’s an independent chapel. It’s a private chapel. I know . . . it’s hard to conceive of such a large place as a chapel. But it is the monastery chapel. We have an independent chapel in our house. To have a Baptism, we need the permission of the local pastor, because we’re in his territory. It’s not hard to get, if you have a good relationship.

An independent chapel is one that belongs to an institute or an institution, but has the permission of the Ordinary to reserve the Blessed Sacrament. That is one thing that only the local bishop can grant, permission to have the Blessed Sacrament in your chapel. In a prelature, the Prelate coordinates these things with the local bishop before they happen.
I believe Brother JR’s point is that they are not independent. They have a superior, whether it is a bishop or a religious superior, to whom they are supposed to be answering, and they are not doing it. Independent implies that there is no one who has the authority to give them orders.

It is in some ways a semantic game, but it is an important one.
BINGO! 👍

In Canon Law there is a great deal of semantics and nuances that go into it, not to mention tradition. The Church looks at this word, “independent” and asks, “What has this word meant in Catholic language?” It’s not concerned with what it means today to the rest of the world. That’s the tricky part about reading Canon Law. One has to know what these words mean in the Canonical tradition. There are actually dictionaries for Canon Law alone. They even define the word “is”. Bill Clinton should have had one of those. 😃
I don’t believe I have ever posted about Church law.

-Tim-
:rotfl: Not you, the other Timothy. The one who wrote the epistle.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Has anyone been part of a divine mercy cenacle group? We have a new group starting at my parish and was just wondering what other people experiences were.
 
Yes, mainly because of misunderstandings (oftentimes crucial) generated by a faulty Italian translation of St. Faustina’s diary the Holy See received in the 1950s. The devotion was banned in 1959 (pending further investigation), with Father Michal Sopocko (Faustina’s spiritual director and promoter of the devotion) receiving a severe reprimand. Even so, the archbishop of Kraków allowed the nuns to leave the original picture hanging in their chapel so that those who wished to continue to pray before it could do so.

It was really the efforts of a younger Karol Wojtyla, who opened a new investigation into the matter in 1965, that began the rehabilitation of the Divine Mercy message and St. Faustina.
Thats not fully correct.Christ in this private revellation offered something for absolution that only the sacraments can offer & it was viewed as heresy,also the excessive attention on faustina herself. Many theologians point to offering the divinity of christ to the father for repairition of sin as being theologically impossible
 
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