How do we dispose of glass chalices?

[Marauder]

But, when it involves going against the norms for sacred vessels, that’s a big problem. You were not reffering to the destruction of the objects. You were defending their existence to begin with.

I never defended their use to begin with. Can you point to the place I did that?

You said:

“Thinking outside the box” does not apply here as these aren’t museum pieces, unless you’re making an exhibit of things that have been expressly prohibited for use in the Mass. As Pope Benedict repeatedly has said, we are not called to be “creative” when it comes to the Mass.

I never said “thinking outside of the box” was appropriate to the Mass/Liturgy. If I did then the Pope’s words would apply. I only said “thinking outside of the box” can be appropriate to the disposal of the already used items.

I am only saying that now that they exist, that have to be dealt with in a manner that is befitting what they were used for. Just because you can’t think of a possible use, that doesn’t mean the parish can’t.

 

[lizaanne]

I never said to use them as tablewear or something secular. All I have said is that there may be another use for them in the parish.

Such as what, put flowers in them? I can’t think of a single use for something that can no longer be used. You are so concerned with everyone having a warm fuzzy feeling over this, and to me that is not even a secondary concern in this case.

These items held the Precious Blood. They can no longer be used for this purpose. There is NO OTHER purpose for these vessels. Therefore they must be destroyed.

This really is quite simple. And yes, some things are black and white.

~Liza

 

[Marauder]

There is a BIG difference between “glass” chalices and altar rails. Altar rails have never been reprobated for use in the Mass, unlike glass chalices. What part of reprobated do you not understand?

You really should consider the charity of your posts.

The crystal/glass chalices are items that have been blessed that are no longer usable within the liturgy . Just like the altar rails at my church. Just like at my church the altar rails were then used in another manner, if the parish has another use for the crystal/glass chalices that is befitting to their original use they can do it.

The glass chalices have only been prohitted for use to carry the precious blood during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

 

[lizaanne]

You really should consider the charity of your posts.

The crystal/glass chalices are items that have been blessed that are no longer usable within the liturgy . Just like the altar rails at my church. Just like at my church the altar rails were then used in another manner, if the parish has another use for the crystal/glass chalices that is befitting to their original use they can do it.

The glass chalices have only been prohitted for use to carry the precious blood during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

The altar rails where just that - altar rails. They did not carry the Sacred Species. This is the difference here.

~Liza

 

[Marauder]

Such as what, put flowers in them?

Only the parish itself can think of the uses for the chalices. Only they know the look and feel of the item and the circumstances around where it came from and whether finding another use is important.

You are so concerned with everyone having a warm fuzzy feeling over this, and to me that is not even a secondary concern in this case.

Charity is important at all times. If you can think of a charitable way to smooth things over and still follow the rules why not try. The world isn’t black and white.

 

[Marauder]

The altar rails where just that - altar rails. They did not carry the Sacred Species. This is the difference here.

This isn’t worth it anymore. It’s a parallel not an exact fit.

As I have been saying from the beginning. If the parish can not find another suitable use for the chalices they need to be destroyed in an appropriate manner. If they can find another use for an item that is suitable for an item that has been blessed and at one time carried the precious blood they can use it. Key word be suitable.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Blessed objects can be also put on display if done properly, have you ever been to the Pope John Paul II institute.

My bet is there are people in the parish that paid for the crystal and they don’t like the idea of their expensive gift being disposed of. If the church is an old church and has some type of historical exhibit they can be used that way. Another option is storage, our church put the altar rails and gates into storage and years later they where brought out of storage and are now incorperated into the altar and the crucifix. Sometimes you have to think outside of the box (as long as that thinking is done with a proper religious decorum.)

Glass for chalices have never been approved or ever will be approved. A display of inappropriate liturgical vessels, is not necessary.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

You are taking Pope Benedict’s words and twisting them to a thing where they don’t apply. The disposal or future use of “glass chalices” isn’t being creative about Mass.

If you have a promanent member of the board, upset about the fact that their crystal chalices are going to be destroyed you may be able to come up with some happy medium. I am not saying to continue using them in the Mass. All I am saying is that destroying them isn’t the ONLY option.

The facts are:

1. They used glass or crystal chalices in the past.
2. They are looking for alternatives now.

The alternatives are to destory the chalices in an approved manner or use them in another manner that befits an item that was blessed and used to carry the precious blood of Christ.

Just because you may be angry that they were used in the first place doesn’t change things about their future use.

A chalice or ciborium can NEVER be used for any other purpose except celebrating Mass. Artistic value and Vatican museum not included.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I have read his books and the disposition of a blessed item is not twisting the Liturgy. If they continued to use the chalice as a chalice that is bending the Liturgy. Thinking outside the box as a method of re-use of an item is different from thinking outside the box during the Mass.

I might agree with your concept. That if the chalices were broken and the pieces melted down colored and used in a stained glass window for the church, maybe, ??. I would think that the Bishops permission would be required to do this? But as a chalice or ciborium there is NO other use.

 

[Marauder]

I might agree with your concept. That if the chalices were broken and the pieces melted down colored and used in a stained glass window for the church, maybe, ??. I would think that the Bishops permission would be required to do this? But as a chalice or ciborium there is NO other use.

That’s the point I have been trying to make all along. That the ONLY option isn’t to destroy them. It all depends on how valuable they are on a historic and personal basis. If it is worth it there are other options.

If these chalices were just something that the priest bought on his own, then they probably should be destroyed. But if there is some “value” to them, given the right motivation there can be other options. There is nothing that says something like that can’t be done because chalices and ciboriums have been reused in the past. I really doubt every single precious metal chalice and ciborium that became unusable was buried or destroyed. Most likely they were melted down and used again.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I find it interesting that the OP said the parish is willing to pay for new chalices. (He didn’t say if the pastor wanted them or not which is a huge question in itself.)

Whatever the rules against using glass chalices may be, there is also the issue of tact. A friend of mine belongs to a parish where a new pastor came in and basically said “we need to get rid of these glass chalices.” He did so, bought new ones, then asked the parishioners to donate to pay for them. Their reaction was along the lines of “we paid for the old ones. If you want new ones, pay for them yourself.” That was also their reaction to a lot of the other things he thought he needed new – new vestments because the old ones weren’t good enough, new altar linens because the old ones weren’t good enough, etc. The parish was running a $70K deficit in his first six months as pastor. And his manner of making these changes was such that no one wanted to make extra donations.

You can hold up the rules and alienate people in the process. Or you can deal with things while keeping people’s feelings in mind. The best pastors never lose sight of the people they shepherd.

 

[benedictgal]

That’s the point I have been trying to make all along. That the ONLY option isn’t to destroy them. It all depends on how valuable they are on a historic and personal basis. If it is worth it there are other options.

If these chalices were just something that the priest bought on his own, then they probably should be destroyed. But if there is some “value” to them, given the right motivation there can be other options. There is nothing that says something like that can’t be done because chalices and ciboriums have been reused in the past. I really doubt every single precious metal chalice and ciborium that became unusable was buried or destroyed. Most likely they were melted down and used again.

You have missed the point, again. The fact is that these glass goblets are not the same as legitimately made gold chalices and ciborria. The glassware was never supposed to have been used.

We are not talking about the golden sacred vessels. We are taking about items that were illicitly used. Perhaps using them for stained glass would be a good option. Nonetheless, they can’t be used for anything else.

 

[lizaanne]

You have missed the point, again. The fact is that these glass goblets are not the same as legitimately made gold chalices and ciborria. The glassware was never supposed to have been used.

We are not talking about the golden sacred vessels. We are taking about items that were illicitly used. Perhaps using them for stained glass would be a good option. Nonetheless, they can’t be used for anything else.

Ya beat me to it.

~Liza

 

[Marauder]

You have missed the point, again. The fact is that these glass goblets are not the same as legitimately made gold chalices and ciborria. The glassware was never supposed to have been used.

Get over the fact that they were not supposed to be used in the first place. The fact they were supposed to be used or weren’t supposed to be used has no effect on their status now other then the fact you shouldn’t continue to use them as chalices or ciboria. The fact is they WERE used. Now they are just like the gold chalices and ciboria in how they are to be treated. If the parish feels it is important enough to reuse them in an appropriate way (not in the context as chalices and ciboria but in another way) given enough motivation and resources they can. If not they can destroy them using the appropriate method.

Last comment, show me the documentation to support the fact that the items HAVE to be destroyed.

 

[lizaanne]

A chalice or ciborium can NEVER be used for any other purpose except celebrating Mass. Artistic value and Vatican museum not included.

I think this would be good enough for me - but I’m ok with a black and white definitive answer. There is right and there is wrong. The right thing to do in this situation is destroy them. There is no other possible thing they could be used for - that ends the discussion. I’m not understanding why this is so difficult.

~Liza

 

[Marauder]

I think this would be good enough for me - but I’m ok with a black and white definitive answer. There is right and there is wrong. The right thing to do in this situation is destroy them. There is no other possible thing they could be used for - that ends the discussion. I’m not understanding why this is so difficult.

~Liza

Because I guess you missed his other post where he said.

I might agree with your concept. That if the chalices were broken and the pieces melted down colored and used in a stained glass window for the church, maybe, ??. I would think that the Bishops permission would be required to do this? But as a chalice or ciborium there is NO other use.

And I am still waiting for the documentation that says it has to be destroyed. You are argueing based on what you feel the regulations are, not what they are.

 

[benedictgal]

Get over the fact that they were not supposed to be used in the first place. The fact they were supposed to be used or weren’t supposed to be used has no effect on their status now other then the fact you shouldn’t continue to use them as chalices or ciboria. The fact is they WERE used. Now they are just like the gold chalices and ciboria in how they are to be treated. If the parish feels it is important enough to reuse them in an appropriate way (not in the context as chalices and ciboria but in another way) given enough motivation and resources they can. If not they can destroy them using the appropriate method.

Last comment, show me the documentation to support the fact that the items HAVE to be destroyed.

Marauder, I will provide you with documentation. Unfortunately, my books are at home. What do you not understand about the importance of keeping liturgical norms? Why do you insist on taking such a rebellious spirit when it comes to safeguarding what the Church requires us to do and have for the Mass?

I keep making the point that glassware is reprobated and illicit to remind you that their original use was WRONG. The Church never envisioned that we would be straying off the liturgical path. However, it seems that she needs contantly clarify even the most basic of things because someone went off the creative deep end.

 

[lizaanne]

And I am still waiting for the documentation that says it has to be destroyed. You are argueing based on what you feel the regulations are, not what they are.

That is because I also function using common sense.

1 - The items are glass and prohibited for use at Mass
2 - They have previously been used to hold the Precious Blood of Christ
3 - They can no longer be used (should never have been used) at Mass
4 - There is NO appropriate, suitable use for anything that has held the Sacred Species - that is not suitable for Mass

~Liza

 

[Marauder]

Marauder, I will provide you with documentation. Unfortunately, my books are at home. What do you not understand about the importance of keeping liturgical norms? Why do you insist on taking such a rebellious spirit when it comes to safeguarding what the Church requires us to do and have for the Mass?

The problem is that I have never said that it is appropriate to use glasswear during a normal Mass. I am only talking about the disposition of the glasswear after it has been used/blessed. So there is no need to provide me with documentation on liturgical abuse or the use of glasswear at Mass, etc.

The documentation would have to say that chalices that can no longer be used HAVE to be destroyed. I really doubt you will find it.

 

[Marauder]

That is because I also function using common sense.
…
4 - There is NO appropriate, suitable use for anything that has held the Sacred Species - that is not suitable for Mass

And that is YOUR OPINION not church doctrine. Provide the documentation and I will believe you.

Until someone provides the documentation on this I will refrain from commenting on people personal opinion anymore in this thread.

But note that I have found something that says “A chalice which becomes “unserviceable” is not to be sold, but must be used for some other sacred purpose or melted.”