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justasking4
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What is your defintion of doctrine?
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guanophore
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This is pandering lies about Catholic teaching, ja4, a bearing of false witness against your neighbor. Even if you don’t consider Catholics your brothers and sisters in Christ, are we not still your neighbor?
Regardless of what some misinformed Catholic may have told you, the Church does not teach that you can “lose” your salvation. In fact, She upholds what the Apostles handed down from the teachings of Jesus, that salvation is not, according to a modern and erroneous evangelical conception, a single event that occurs at one point in time for all time. She teaches that salvation begins at baptism, is worked out through out life, and is culminated in glory. It might be more appropriate to say that Catholics believe we have not yet “attained” salvation until the Last Day.
" Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Phil 3:12-16
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guanophore
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I think this is a good question, but should be taken to a new thread, so as not to derail this one. I think to be effective in evangelization it is essential to have not only a good grasp of doctrine that Jesus taught, but also a good grasp of the 'different doctrine" believed by those who have left the Catholic faith. Without this, it is difficult to address all the issues that come up.
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justasking4
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guanophore
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Really? Did I make another one?
No. Catholics don’t conceive at all that they “have salvation”. This is one of those “other doctrines” (non-apostolic).
Catholics conceive of salvation emanating from being in a state of grace. The individual can choose to step into and out of that state of grace. persons who commit mortal sin have stepped out of grace (or fallen from it). Persons not in a state of grace cannot enter heaven because only the pure can exist there.
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Pixie_Dust
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Actually, there were several passages that troubled me because they seemed to say the opposite of Once Saved, Always Saved. I would ask my pastors about those verses and they would hem and haw and do their darndest to explain those verses away. The Catholic position makes more sense in light of the whole of Scripture. And it’s not that you can “lose” your salvation as you’ve stated above, like one loses their car keys or their glasses. It’s a life-long journey, a daily picking up our cross to follow Him - not a one time pray a sinner’s prayer done deal.
I don’t pray to her in the sense that you’re using the word, I ask her to pray for me since Scripture says the prayers of the righteous avail much. Those who are alive with Christ in Heaven have been made righteous and thus are able to pray for me more perfectly than I can while still here on earth. Revelation tells us about the saints offering prayers to God in bowls of incense. I believe Mary is one of them.
Revelation 12.
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justasking4
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The ** “WARNING TO ALL PARTICPANTS” **and your name calling me a bigot are just a couple bizarre comments made by you about me. ****.guanophore
Really? Did I make another one?
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guanophore
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Do you think so? Actually, the warning to thread participants is working well, because much fewer forum members are falling into that hampster cage you spin about sacred tradition. So, I would say it is effective. Maybe I don’ t understand your definition of “bizarre”?
If I called you a bigot, then I sincerely apologize, since name callling is rude,unChristlike, and also against the forum rules. On the other hand, if I have labeled an attitude, behavior, post or wording as bigoted or representative of anti-Catholic bigotry then I cannot apologize, as I call 'em as I see 'em, and I especiallly look for such things in persons who have a history.
I sincerely hope and pray that you, as a person, made in the image and likeness of God, are not nearly as bigoted as the things you post here at times appear to be.
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EHRAM
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Yes, I knew the Bible well and had studied its doctrines. Eventually, I concluded from the Bible that the Catholic Church was built on a rock while Protestantism was built on shifting sands.
From 1 Tim 3:15 I learned that the Church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
From 2 Th 2:15 I learned the importance of holding fast to teachings/traditions passed on by mouth as well as by letter.
I realized that the Catholic Church still teaches as “one who has authority” while the Protestants resembled the followers of Korah who rejected the true priesthood and Cain who did not offer an acceptable sacrifice (see the letter of Jude). I realized that Protestants were like Israel at the end of the book of Judges, where, since there was no king, everyone did what seemed right in his own eyes.
So for me, once I accepted the authority of the Catholic Church, accepting the Marian doctrines followed. However, after further study I realized that John’s vision of “ark of the covenant” in heaven in heaven is immediately followed by a vision of a woman (wearing a crown) clothed with the sun, and that both the ark and the woman are the Blessed Virgin Mary. Also, in the Davidic monarchy, the queen was the monarch’s mother (think of Bathsheba and Solomon). Note that when a king’s reign is described in the OT, his mother’s name was given. That is because she was his queen. A king might have many wives, but only one mother. So since Jesus was a king in David’s line, Mary would be his queen.
And if Elijah could go bodily to heaven, it is clear that Assumption is within his power. If God would honor Elijah in that way, why wouldn’t he honor Mary in that way as well?
And (I am quoting from a priest quoted by Scott Hahn in one of his speeches) “If you could preserve your mother from all sin, even original sin, wouldn’t you do it? Jesus could so He did!”
Once I accepted Mary’s Immaculate Conception, her Queenship, and her Assumption, the other Marian doctrines followed.
Excuse me, but I request clarification about this quote of yours that I have highlighted. It is my sincere hope that you are not implying here that Christian and Catholic are two different things.
If you are not, then fine. If you are, I, as a non-Catholic, resent the implication that my Catholic brethren are something other than Christian.
Jon
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Pax
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I have over sixty verses. If you want them, I can email them to you.
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jmcrae
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Yes; I was an Elder in the Church, and a Sunday School teacher.
At some point, I realized that the Bible didn’t fall out of the sky. I realized that the same Holy Spirit who gave us the Bible also gave us the Marian doctrines, by exactly the same method - by means of Councils of the Catholic Church, and by means of infallible declarations by Catholic Popes.
By the way, Mary was infallibly declared to be “Theotokos” and “Mother of God” nearly 80 years before the 27 books of the New Testament were infallibly declared, so the argument that “the Church must have been apostate when it declared the doctrines about Mary” doesn’t wash, or else it was an apostate Church that declared the New Testament (and therefore, if the Marian doctrines are false, then we have no New Testament, either, since if the Church was apostate in 325 AD when Mary was recognized as the ever-virgin, sinless Mother of God, then it was still apostate in 405 AD when the 27 books were recognized as the New Testament - you can’t have it both ways - either both are false, or both are true).
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jmcrae
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One is sufficient: Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord” [once saved] will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven. [not always saved]
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Pax
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I believe they all do, although those that would refuse to believe might argue context even when it is obvious. I am not accusing you of being in that camp. Since you asked, I will give you a few examples:
The word abide in scripture means to “remain.” In John’s letters this theme is repeated numerous times. This is an example.
1 John 2: 24-25
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. **If **what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.
James 5: 19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his[the sinner’s] soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
This verse from James clearly shows how someone can wander from the truth or fall away through sin. They can, however, be restored. Once saved always saved? No way.
2 Peter 1: 10-11
Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to** confirm your call and election**, for **if **you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Notice that Peter says that the believers need to confirm their call and election so that they will not fall and will thus have an entrance into heaven. There is clearly a provisional nature to our salvation while we still struggle in this life.
2 Peter 2: 20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
Notice how Peter makes it clear that believers are even worse off should they fall and turn away from what they had received than if they had never known our Lord and Savior.
Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, **provided you continue **in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Paul uses the word “provided.” This is again a message of the provisional nature of our salvation. We too can be “cut off.”
Hebrews 6: 4-8
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.
Nothing could be more clear than this passage from Hebrews. A believer that apostacizes is done for. Their end is to be burned.
I hope these examples meet your need for context.
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Cat
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May I request that the topic be kept on topic, please?
justasking4, could you please “just ask” on another thread? There are lots of threads about Marian doctrines, purgatory, and how Protestants like me came to embrace these doctrines as Scriptural. Please go to these threads. Thank you so much.
I am interested in hearing various opinions, experiences, and suggestions about evangelizing Protestants. I appreciate all the thought-filled responses so far and I feel that I am getting a lot of different perspectives.
I especially like the idea that the word “evangelizing” is probably not the right word, although lately when I see how many Protestant friends and relatives who were once “on fire” for the Lord have now fallen away from the faith, maybe it IS the right word after all.
I’d also like to mention an idea that we learned back in the Campus Crusade training days. Satan tries really hard to convince us NOT to evangelize and give witness to our faith. He tells us that we are not spiritual enough, or that we have such a poor testimony due to various sinful practices that we should just keep our mouths shut.
I think that this is part of the problem that Catholics have with witnessing. We feel that we aren’t good enough. I know I have this problem. I think it’s a lie, because even if we aren’t good enough, Jesus is.
justasking4, could you please “just ask” on another thread? There are lots of threads about Marian doctrines, purgatory, and how Protestants like me came to embrace these doctrines as Scriptural. Please go to these threads. Thank you so much.
I am interested in hearing various opinions, experiences, and suggestions about evangelizing Protestants. I appreciate all the thought-filled responses so far and I feel that I am getting a lot of different perspectives.
I especially like the idea that the word “evangelizing” is probably not the right word, although lately when I see how many Protestant friends and relatives who were once “on fire” for the Lord have now fallen away from the faith, maybe it IS the right word after all.
I’d also like to mention an idea that we learned back in the Campus Crusade training days. Satan tries really hard to convince us NOT to evangelize and give witness to our faith. He tells us that we are not spiritual enough, or that we have such a poor testimony due to various sinful practices that we should just keep our mouths shut.
I think that this is part of the problem that Catholics have with witnessing. We feel that we aren’t good enough. I know I have this problem. I think it’s a lie, because even if we aren’t good enough, Jesus is.
Cat,
I am a Lutheran - life-long - but open to evangelizing. I think there are some things I can tell you that, at least for me, are working and not working.
Blessings,
Jon
I am a Lutheran - life-long - but open to evangelizing. I think there are some things I can tell you that, at least for me, are working and not working.
- Don’t tell me why I’m wrong for being Lutheran, or how much of a heretic Luther was. It only raises defensive feelings.
- Do tell me what you think we agree on. It gives me a starting place, a point of reference.
- Help me to understand what you believe, in terms that I can understand. (I’m sola scriptura, so use the Bible)
- Let me know how passionate you are, what you love about being Catholic.
Blessings,
Jon
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justasking4
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There are major fundamental doctrines and practices between catholics and protestants. Do i think there are some catholics who are saved? Yes. The same goes goes for protestants. Just because you belong to a praticular church doesn’t automatically mean you are saved.
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justasking4
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If you look at the context you will see that these people were never saved to begin with. They were self decieved.
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jmcrae
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I look at the context and I see them saying “Lord, Lord.” I don’t see anything that says they were never saved to begin with. Obviously, they had initial faith of some kind, since they thought they were going to go to Heaven.
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