How do we explain when saints say immoral things?

[DarkLight]

I think you need to provide a source of your claims

Mintaka told you that

I think you’re confusing me with someone else. I haven’t written anything I haven’t sourced.

 

[adrift]

I think you’re confusing me with someone else. I haven’t written anything I haven’t sourced.

I am not confusing you at all. Saying that Augustine wrote it without citing where he wrote is not sourcing. You have been told that what you have stated is false. You need to provide the source of your comments not just the statement. You have been told that some of the statements you claim were made up. If that is not true than you should be able to provide the source of where the statement is made not just by who.

 

[DarkLight]

I am not confusing you at all. Saying that Augustine wrote it without citing where he wrote is not sourcing. You have been told that what you have stated is false. You need to provide the source of your comments not just the statement. You have been told that some of the statements you claim were made up. If that is not true than you should be able to provide the source of where the statement is made not just by who.

I’m not looking for a commentary or explanation on a specific passage, which is why I didn’t include a quote. So I include a sample passage with the caveat that I would not like the thread to get caught up on explaining or arguing about the particular passage listed. There are plenty of others in other saints I’m sure, so I’m looking for a general answer.

De Mendacio

This is the only passage I, personally, have referred to in this thread. As you can see I provided the citation. The statements that were called out as being made up were in a post by someone else. Perhaps you should check better before going after people for not citing things.

 

[thistle]

This is the only passage I, personally, have referred to in this thread. As you can see I provided the citation. The statements that were called out as being made up were in a post by someone else. Perhaps you should check better before going after people for not citing things.

Have you actually read any of St Augustine’s writings, in particular his letters about women or have you simply looked in the encyclopedia to dig up something you think is wrong?

 

[glendab]

Hello GoldenSeal.

Nothing wrong with what St. Augustine wrote?

"Women should not be enlightened or educated in any way. They should, in fact, be segregated as they are the cause of hideous and involuntary erections in holy men.”

I’m finding it hard to believe St. Augustine actually said this. Can you please provide active links to these documents or at least cite the Works themselves that they cam from so that they can be referenced and proven accurate. A holy man doesn’t have any problem keeping his flesh mortified and so he wouldn’t experience the problem you mention. Also consider that education in St. Augustine’s day was done primarily publically. Folks would sit around a teacher who would deliver a discourse on a specific topic usually in a open-air setting such as an amphitheater or at a temple or other public gathering place. They received their money usually after their students listened and some students, interested in what was said would meet with the teacher afterwards and sometimes they asked the teacher to dine with them. It was rare that education was done in private and it certainly didn’t resemble what we have today.

Glenda

 

[1ke]

Given that I had no prior experiences with Augustine outside of Christian settings, I have serious doubts that my experiences are the ones coloring things.

I am referring to your life experiences, particularly the things you have posted about, not your experience with Augustine. It appears those have seriously colored your interpretation of things.

 

[glendab]

Hello Schaeffer.

I do not have a copy of Augustine’s writings available to me now. Do they have the “nihil obstat” or “imprimatur” on them?

That should offer a bit of information on how they are considered by the Church.

I am a bookworm. Have been all my life. I have several copies of books written by St. Augustine, some of the same work (Confessions). There are variations in them courtesy of the different translators, editors and affiliations they have and hold. The worst one I have is one by an Anglican. He has warped the writings to unrecognizable in places as well as inserting generously his own running commentary through the work yet gives little, and in some cases, no warning that the words are his own and not the Saint’s. It is an “up-dated” version. It is horrid! Having experienced such variations in my own reading history, I am well aware when some persons misuse the writings of the Saints for their own purposes. Jesus at that time becomes a rock that will make them fall.

Glenda

P.S. There is an imprimatur in the front of the book delivered by an Anglican Clerical in the copy of the Confessions I have and if you don’t know how to tell the difference between the two, you would think it was from the Church of Rome. And guess what else? I’ve read books with real Imprimaturs on them that had very questionable content and I found myself wondering how they got it and if the person giving it actually read what was in it. Yeah! It was *that *bad.

 

[DarkLight]

Have you actually read any of St Augustine’s writings, in particular his letters about women or have you simply looked in the encyclopedia to dig up something you think is wrong?

As a matter of fact I was doing an essay on the subject of lying - I have spoken before on this forum that I am pursing a philosophy degree, and ethics is a requirement (though somewhat out-field for me). I happened to come upon the passage in the process. I read it 3 or 4 times trying to see if I had merely misinterpreted it and could find no other way to read the passage than what I have stated. I have some familiarity with Augustine, at the very least his passage on rape in the beginning of City of God. He is hardly universally negative, I am aware.

I do not intend any disrespect, but to answer a very common evangelistic question. Our saints are not declared infallible - some among the saints denied the immaculate conception, for example, prior to the time it was declared a dogma of the church.

 

[DarkLight]

I am referring to your life experiences, particularly the things you have posted about, not your experience with Augustine. It appears those have seriously colored your interpretation of things.

I understand, but given that no one here has provided me with a plausible interpretation, and that Augustine’s writings fit quite neatly into the commonly held views of the time (especially the scientific views from Aristotle), I see little reason for this claim alone to alter my views. It seems as likely to me that people are jumping to the defense of what they see as “sacred” without reflecting on how it fits into the tradition - much as someone might be offended if another claimed that holy water does not cure diseases. And that it what I am asking; not to argue about the specific passage but how to fit the writings of the saints with whatever faults and even errors they may have into our understanding of tradition.

 

[glendab]

Hello DarkLight.

As a matter of fact I was doing an essay on the subject of lying - I have spoken before on this forum that I am pursing a philosophy degree, and ethics is a requirement (though somewhat out-field for me). I happened to come upon the passage in the process. I read it 3 or 4 times trying to see if I had merely misinterpreted it and could find no other way to read the passage than what I have stated. I have some familiarity with Augustine, at the very least his passage on rape in the beginning of City of God. He is hardly universally negative, I am aware.

I do not intend any disrespect, but to answer a very common evangelistic question. Our saints are not declared infallible - some among the saints denied the immaculate conception, for example, prior to the time it was declared a dogma of the church.

You should check the sources of your works by St. Augustine. They may be very poorly translated or worse deliberately colored by the editor. It is well known that some men are more adept at translations than others. The best translations are well known among the academics. There is plenty of poor scholarship these days, so at least be aware that the copy you have may not be the best and it could be an actual distortion of the works themselves to meet a specific agenda. A good librarian at your college could probably direct you to the various translations that are worth while and credible among those who really know. Also keep in mind the person who will be reviewing your papers know this and will be observing which translators you consider worthy and it will give them an opinion. It will tell them possibly more than you want them to know. If you want to come across as a Liberal, use a liberals translation. if you want to come across as a conservative, use a conservatives translation. If however, you want to come across as a serious academic and concerned with accurate scholarship, choose wisely who you quote and what sources you quote from.

Sorry for saying so much. I really should tame myself.

Glenda

 

[DarkLight]

Hello DarkLight.

You should check the sources of your works by St. Augustine. They may be very poorly translated or worse deliberately colored by the editor. It is well known that some men are more adept at translations than others. The best translations are well known among the academics. There is plenty of poor scholarship these days, so at least be aware that the copy you have may not be the best and it could be an actual distortion of the works themselves to meet a specific agenda. A good librarian at your college could probably direct you to the various translations that are worth while and credible among those who really know. Also keep in mind the person who will be reviewing your papers know this and will be observing which translators you consider worthy and it will give them an opinion. It will tell them possibly more than you want them to know. If you want to come across as a Liberal, use a liberals translation. if you want to come across as a conservative, use a conservatives translation. If however, you want to come across as a serious academic and concerned with accurate scholarship, choose wisely who you quote and what sources you quote from.

Sorry for saying so much. I really should tame myself.

Glenda

I would expect that New Advent would have translations that would at least be favorable to the Saint. I’m hardly using that specific passage in my paper (given that it’s a paper on lying and not feminism or sexuality), so it’s less of an issue there.

 

[CRATUS]

It’s a reality that a lot of things in the writings of the saints are just plain terrible. So, for example, St. Augustine has some passages about women that are just outright sexist and derogatory towards women. Many non-Christians see these, and see that these people are saints, and think the church gives a pass to such things.

How do we explain this? How do we handle when our great saints and even great teachers promote things we find abhorrent now? How do we answer the critics who point to these and say these men were no better than their time?

I have accepted saints are human and part of their time. I am sure if I met some of them from the past, they may not like because of the color of my skin/ethnicity.

 

[marymary1975]

There is nothing wrong with what St Augustine wrote. Not sure what other things you believe to be immoral or why.

Perhaps the problem is not the writings of the saints, but rather your understanding of them.

Some of yourhistoryexperiences could be coloring how you are reading their writings. One must also understand what they are writing about, to whom they are writing, and the cultural and historical context in which they are writing. Many saints are also writing of mystical experiences using allegory, symbolism, etc, and others have advanced theological training and may be writing about things we simply lack context for.

While certainly not infallible, saints don’t become saints by way of “immoral” writings. Their lives and their writings are studied carefully.

^^^^ THIS!!! There is nothing immoral about st Augustine’s wiritngs and probably anything immoral in other saints, the problem is the way you are interpreting them. Saint Augustine is definitely the mist misread and misinterpreted saint in history and the problem is how people are understanding him.

 

[DarkLight]

^^^^ THIS!!! There is nothing immoral about st Augustine’s wiritngs and probably anything immoral in other saints, the problem is the way you are interpreting them. Saint Augustine is definitely the mist misread and misinterpreted saint in history and the problem is how people are understanding him.

Since this thread has apparently been resurrected:

I invited people to explain what was going on in these passages. If I see a convincing explanation of what exactly these passages are supposed to mean, I’ll be happy to change my view. But so far I’ve only seen blatant assertions that I must be doing something wrong, with nothing to back it up.

 

[SonOfMan]

Since this thread has apparently been resurrected:

I invited people to explain what was going on in these passages. If I see a convincing explanation of what exactly these passages are supposed to mean, I’ll be happy to change my view. But so far I’ve only seen blatant assertions that I must be doing something wrong, with nothing to back it up.

St. Augustine was a womanizer before his conversion of heart. More than likely, his past experiences are what tainted him and it shows in some of what he wrote. I am guessing he is a saint due to his conversion and his effort to change (although he still struggled/was tainted with the way he viewed women), not because he was a perfect man.