How do we forgive Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?

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Sorry that last post wasn’t really answer to your question, nor what I wanted to say (bit tired out today with all the lovely sunshine we are being treated to!)

Ok, say a person at some point in their spiritual life progresses to the level of prayer and forgiveness of a terrorist plot which killed many people. (no one they know) They then hear of more killings. Would they not be at a level in their spiritual life where they don’t rise to anger, and feel the need to go through thought, prayer and forgiveness, in order to release this anger.
Because if a person has reach a forgiveness “level” they would have experienced how anger and resentment had made them feel (and possibly those close to them) and being free from that feeling, they know there isn’t any fulfillment in anger etc.

I’m not saying a person need not pray for grace to be able to remain in a peaceful “condition”, we always need to ask for this. Nor am I saying the violence and murders that continue should be ignored, and that the people involved both victims and murders do not count because they are not within our “circle”
 
As we speak the second phase of the trial is beginning. We Christians must note that the jury and judge are being presented facts that are intended to stimulate wrath, resentment, and feelings of revenge, so that they can be convinced that the death penalty is “deserved”.

There is absolutely nothing “wrong” with this. What is missing, however, is how everyone involved, the jury, Dzhokhar, the judge, the witnesses, and the listening public can forgive.

How is someone to make an objective (unemotional) opinion on the matter if forgiveness has not happened in the viewer? Indeed, is objectivity the goal? No, the gospel tells us,
Love is the goal. We are to love our enemies and forgive those we hold something against.

So, love of D.T. means to forgive, even if he does not want it. What about love of the victims? We have been praying for them, have we not? They have our love, and our empathy. If they were to hang onto their resentment toward D.T., then they would remain imprisoned, and we would not wish that on those we love. We do wish for the public to be protected from Dzhokhar, and we should seriously consider and carry out that responsibility.

Father in Heaven,

Help us to let our light shine by example! We reap what we sow. If we sow forgiveness, then may the world see this as The Way, the way to the Kingdom “on Earth as it is in heaven.” As all world religions value forgiveness, help us be a spark to light the world; let it begin with all of us, individually, and all of us, collectively.

:amen:
 
simpleas said:
Sorry that last post wasn’t really answer to your question, nor what I wanted to say (bit tired out today with all the lovely sunshine we are being treated to!)

Ok, say a person at some point in their spiritual life progresses to the level of prayer and forgiveness of a terrorist plot which killed many people. (no one they know) They then hear of more killings. Would they not be at a level in their spiritual life where they don’t rise to anger, and feel the need to go through thought, prayer and forgiveness, in order to release this anger.
Because if a person has reach a forgiveness “level” they would have experienced how anger and resentment had made them feel (and possibly those close to them) and being free from that feeling, they know there isn’t any fulfillment in anger etc.

I’m not saying a person need not pray for grace to be able to remain in a peaceful “condition”, we always need to ask for this. Nor am I saying the violence and murders that continue should be ignored, and that the people involved both victims and murders do not count because they are not within our “circle”
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Added onto the above :

I would think that forgiving would start with our nearest and dearest, and of course ourselves, before we can progress onto forgiving murders etc.
 
simpleas said:
Added onto the above :

I would think that forgiving would start with our nearest and dearest, and of course ourselves, before we can progress onto forgiving murders etc.
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Yes, absolutely! But if we hold something against them, it might be easier to forgive someone that has less direct affect on us.

Thanks.🙂
 
Just an observer of this thread…

My opinion is that it is ok to ask for forgiveness for thoughts that you may have had about these 2 brothers. I also believe that we need to pray for their souls. The rest is up to DT and our Lord

I was following this thread as to learn about forgiveness. Lets just keep on the subject!!!

Judy
 
Judy57 said:
Just an observer of this thread…

My opinion is that it is ok to ask for forgiveness for thoughts that you may have had about these 2 brothers. I also believe that we need to pray for their souls. The rest is up to DT and our Lord

I was following this thread as to learn about forgiveness. Lets just keep on the subject!!!

Judy
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Hi, Judy, and welcome!

You have brought in a whole new aspect on the subject!

Yes, part of the situation at hand is that when we have really negative thoughts about someone, our normal consciences will “block out” those thoughts. Some go into denial, they have the discipline to block out the whole issue and just don’t think about it, and then we say “I have forgiven” or “I hold nothing against”. This can happen very, very quickly in the mind? Do you agree?

A real test for this is when we watch a movie with a protagonist. People give themselves the freedom to resent and feel very negatively toward a fictional character, “Its not real”.

Bottom line: it serves us well to have the self awareness, to allow our minds to resent and even hate, so that we can address the thoughts with forgiveness.

I once heard a woman speak who said, “If we could take all the human thoughts and just slow them down, we would just laugh.” Here is a rendition of the slow version of what goes on in “OneSheep’s” mind:
  1. I observe the horrible occurrence, a bombing. Innocent children and adults are killed and maimed.
  2. Automatically, I have fear, distress, and remorse. I feel awful. If I am there, I am in “help the injured” mode.
  3. If I am not there, my mind is immediately going to “what happened?” was it an accident, or an act of violence by a human? There is a short period, until my mind understands what happens, where I am subconsciously wondering, “am I to resent, or just feel sad?” The feeling: suspicion.
  4. Once my mind understands that it was a person who purposefully meant to destroy, it says “Bad!” and there forms an image of an evil perpetrator, who I immediately want to destroy. In addition, I am blinded of any empathy toward the perpetrator. It is what is called a “mimetic reaction”. Mimetic reactions have their place in violent encounters, but the TV set is hardly a violent encounter (my conscience does not know the difference, it just reacts). My physiology is now in “fight” mode. Feeling: wrath, condemnation (note: this was the mode that the brothers were in when they carried out their acts).
At this point, for me, when I realize that I have these feelings I know that it is time to take the steps to forgive: Pray, do what I can to get in control of the situation or find out what is happening to stop the perpetrators, seek understanding.

However, it is also quite common for people’s mind to have reactions to the initial reactions:
  1. A bit later, the same part of the mind that says “Bad!”, the conscience, has now realized that “I hate” the perpetrator. Another bell has gone off, “do not hate”! “Bad!” Now the image of the self is also resented. We may be compelled to self-destructive thoughts, which can occur because we are blinded from self-empathy. Feeling: guilt, self-condemnation.
  2. Guilt may trigger a subsequent action in the mind that preserves the self from destructive guilty thoughts: denial. People can remain in this denial for years “I did not hate/resent”. (this is all happening subconsciously)
  3. If a person is capable of owning his negative feelings, not go into denial, he or she feels genuine guilt, and when we feel guilty, we project that God is mad at us, for the voice within is saying “you are bad”. That voice is our conscience, but we are sure that it is God.
  4. The aware Christian takes the steps to forgive at this time. If he is Catholic, he goes to confession to deal with the feeling of separation from God.
Here is what I have found: Actually, God has given us the capacity for hate and resentment, and such negative feelings have their place in keeping our own behaviors in check. We are motivated to avoid doing what we hate, this is the conscience working the way that it is supposed to.

God always forgives us. By His life incarnate, and especially from the cross, He starts the spark moving in the opposite direction. “I forgive you” He says, as we kill Him. If we incorporate this, know that He forgives (and why He forgives), then we in turn can forgive ourselves. When we can forgive ourselves, we can also forgive Dzhokhar, for we understand that he is no different than we are, all capable of hatred and/or resentment.

I know, lots of words, but I got started and had to complete it.

Thanks for getting me started, and thanks for your response!🙂
 
Since the sentencing happened, it is probably good to revisit this topic.

Did the jurors forgive Dzhokhar? It is not likely that they did so. The prosecutors, it is my understanding, probably weeded out Catholics who abide by Church teachings, those that agree that moral application of the death penalty today is nearly impossible. That said, the sentence given is no surprise.

Instead, the prosecutors would have weeded out those jurors who know that our first calling is to forgive.

It is natural for a person to want the death penalty for D.T.; Jesus calls us to a greater holiness, to forgive. And once a person forgives, why the death penalty when life imprisonment is an option?
 
OneSheep said:
Since the sentencing happened, it is probably good to revisit this topic.

Did the jurors forgive Dzhokhar? It is not likely that they did so. The prosecutors, it is my understanding, probably weeded out Catholics who abide by Church teachings, those that agree that moral application of the death penalty today is nearly impossible. That said, the sentence given is no surprise.

Instead, the prosecutors would have weeded out those jurors who know that our first calling is to forgive.

It is natural for a person to want the death penalty for D.T.; Jesus calls us to a greater holiness, to forgive. And once a person forgives, why the death penalty when life imprisonment is an option?
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Why stop at eliminating the death penalty? Complete forgiveness would mean just letting him back out on the street :rolleyes:
 
Ever since I’ve come to believe in the existence of an eternal, conscious hell, forgiving people has become a lot easier.

Back when I didn’t believe in hell, forgiveness was hard.
 
OneSheep said:
Since the sentencing happened, it is probably good to revisit this topic.

Did the jurors forgive Dzhokhar? It is not likely that they did so. The prosecutors, it is my understanding, probably weeded out Catholics who abide by Church teachings, those that agree that moral application of the death penalty today is nearly impossible. That said, the sentence given is no surprise.

Instead, the prosecutors would have weeded out those jurors who know that our first calling is to forgive.

It is natural for a person to want the death penalty for D.T.; Jesus calls us to a greater holiness, to forgive. And once a person forgives, why the death penalty when life imprisonment is an option?
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Maybe because when he is put to death he ceases to exist. But I think the pain and anger will remain for people who wanted this outcome for him. His death will not take their pain and anger away, it might even add to it.
Bless all those involved, it is so heartbreaking how we treat each other.
 
DaveBj said:
Why stop at eliminating the death penalty? Complete forgiveness would mean just letting him back out on the street :rolleyes:
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Hi Dave,

Forgiveness does not mean withholding appropriate consequence. That is a common misconception, because so much of our drive to punish relies on resentment. Once we have forgiven we must continue to try to do the best we can for all involved. To let a murderer free would be an error, it is neither best for the perpetrator nor safe for society to do so. People learn from consequences, right?

God bless:)
 
simpleas said:
Maybe because when he is put to death he ceases to exist. But I think the pain and anger will remain for people who wanted this outcome for him. His death will not take their pain and anger away, it might even add to it.
Bless all those involved, it is so heartbreaking how we treat each other.
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Hi Simpleas!

Yes, the execution would do absolutely nothing toward taking away the pain and anger.

Eva Kor said, “Every victim is a potential perpetrator.” The brothers were acting out against a perceived evil. People who want Dzhokhar to die are wanting to eliminate a perceived evil. It is part of automatic resentment that we are blind to the humanity of perpetrators.

Nice to chat again. Hope you have been well. 🙂
 
To forgive unconditionally is in itself a great virtue, and much grace is given to those who practice it.
 
Robert_Sock said:
To forgive unconditionally is in itself a great virtue, and much grace is given to those who practice it.
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It may be a “great virtue,” but it is not practiced by God, whose forgiveness is contingent on confession and repentance.
 
DaveBj said:
It may be a “great virtue,” but it is not practiced by God, whose forgiveness is contingent on confession and repentance.
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Really Dave? Why would our God, who loves us unconditionally, whose mercy is unlimited, withhold forgiveness? Forgiveness is an act of love.

Reminder: Jesus forgave an unrepentant crowd from the cross.

Give it a ponder.🙂
 
OneSheep said:
Really Dave? Why would our God, who loves us unconditionally, whose mercy is unlimited, withhold forgiveness? Forgiveness is an act of love.

Reminder: Jesus forgave an unrepentant crowd from the cross.

Give it a ponder.🙂
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While we’re pondering things, I have a pondering assignment for you – Ponder the “ifs” and “as’s” in Matt. 6:12, 6:15, Mark 11:25-26, and 1 John 1:9. There are conditions to God’s forgiveness.
 
Brendan said:
He forgives those who ask for His Mercy.

But we have a part to play, we must ask.
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👍

Some of the posters above, I wonder if they’ve been lobbying for the removal of the confessionals in their parish churches.
 
DaveBj said:
It may be a “great virtue,” but it is not practiced by God, whose forgiveness is contingent on confession and repentance.
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It’s too bad we’ve been made to think that God doesn’t forgive without going through an institutional process. Not that the process is flawed, but our thinking that without having done so God “has a problem with us” fundamentally shifts our focus from the unconditional forgiveness to “going through the process”. It’s only a “different process” that the legal system goes through, but we humans who are “civilized” tend to favor process. Often without even a clear sight of the goal, or any insight into whether the process is moving them closer to the goal.

The goal is Divine Union, and it is Transforming Union that brings us to it.

Even if you go back to the Baltimore Catechism, notice the sacrament is an outward sign, for the purposes of giving grace. The sacrament itself is not the grace, but points to it. When your see the sacrament itself as the goal it can become idolatry, and you may end up spending your life chasing something that fails to do the Transformation. It’s easy to walk through a stepwise process; it’s harder to reach deep within yourself and ask first of all, why we judge in the first place, and second of all, who is the victim of that unforgiveness? Obviously if we act outwardly as in stoning the adulteress, we assign ourselves as the victims, and that person as the perpetrator. But if we are actually following what Jesus said, rather than what is said about Him, we are challenged to erase the very roots of unforgiveness in order to “be perfect” as Jesus tells us.

136 Q. What is a Sacrament?
A. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
 
DaveBj said:
While we’re pondering things, I have a pondering assignment for you – Ponder the “ifs” and “as’s” in Matt. 6:12, 6:15, Mark 11:25-26, and 1 John 1:9. There are conditions to God’s forgiveness.
Click to expand...
Hi Dave,

I agree that those verses can be read that way, but Jesus’ example was unconditional from the cross. Because of the apparent contradiction, the priest that taught our Bible study told us that God always forgives, but in order for us to experience in a real way His forgiveness we must forgive everyone else. If our forgiveness of everyone else is conditional, then we would be carrying around grudges in some cases all of our lives, which is contrary to the holiness that we are called to. We are to “be perfect, as our heavenly Father is perfect”, and perfect love and mercy (which includes forgiveness) is unconditional.

Feel free to disagree, though. Does that disagreement give us reason to withhold forgiveness, to say that we would be doing right not to forgive? Doesn’t that miss the point?

This is no way diminishes the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Like all sacraments, it is a sign of what has occurred, is occurring at the moment, or what will occur in the future. It is important to practice the sacrament as a means of truly experiencing the forgiveness
of God. Reconciliation is reunion with God. God is already in union with us, his love is unlimited, and we are nothing without God. The disunity that takes place is between the individual and the individual’s love of God (which is also completely tied to our love of everyone else). When we hold a grudge against anyone, we are in effect holding a grudge against God, which brings us back to the importance of forgiving the brothers involved in the atrocity.

Lets ponder together…🙂
 
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