How do we forgive Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?

[OneSheep]

Good Morning MS!

One time (and shhh and/or PM me if you’ve heard this one ) I watched several hours of Dennis Radar, the infamous “BTK Strangler” who terrorized Wichita for several decades and even stalked out my sister-in-law as a potential “project”. His courtroom testimony is amazing; you’d think you were listening to an expert carpenter describe how he built a table – dispassionate, eager to answer the questions, and absolutely deadpan delivery describing the most incredibly offensive crimes as he fulfilled his sexual fantasies Binding, Torturing, and Killing – the “BTK” was his own name. He wrote many letters to the city cops and media after his crimes (like in Batman or something) until finally he got reckless and sent them a floppy disk that could be traced.

I saw the video. In retrospect, what bothered me the most was his unashamed delivery, as if he was proud of what he had done. It was a confession, it was like he was thinking that he was so good by being so honest now. I think he was in the “give me status for being so honest” mode.

Yes, the lack of shame triggered extreme revulsion in me. In order to relate to this, and I am wondering of your thoughts, here, we can actually think of the man as having the content for shame of a small child. Imagine an infant destroying something very beautiful and valuable, and not understanding the impact of his act. This man was no child, but his ability to see value in the other was undeveloped, perhaps completely undeveloped. It could be that all of his other relationships, at church and with his wife, were based solely on his need for status/sex/power, that there was no reciprocity of emotion whatsoever.

It is true, though, that sociopaths can turn empathy “on”, like Simpleas once pointed out. However, I am wondering if this is an immediate effect of oxytocin. The sociopath has to decide to behave in a loving way, and the hormone gets turned on. His default, however, is totally flat toward others.

How about this one? Hit any triggers? Make sure you have your sound on.

youtube.com/embed/RtgbvotqVFE?rel=0

I may post a thread on that one some day, just to work on triggers. Sure, if we saw that sort of thing every day, we would become desensitized. Do you see what I mean? If we are ready for something really awful, it becomes less of an issue. Maybe if I watched the news on TV every day, I would be more desensitized. I haven’t done so for decades, and I don’t watch any violent TV or movies.

The “yuck factor”? I think that is a slightly different circuit in the mind. We can become desensitized to “yuck”. One Summer I worked for a veterinarian. In the beginning, I would almost pass out whenever he made an incision. By the end of the Summer, I watched him remove a completely infected eye and part of the face from a cow without any revulsion.

God Bless

 

[simpleas]

Good Morning Simpleas!

And it never occurred in your mind, “the perpetrator deserves something bad”, even for a moment? Has this always been the case for you? It is a gut-level reaction for me, not something I “mindfully consider”.

If forgiveness is commanded, it can be the impetus, the beginning of such willingness. This is reason to make the call for forgiveness so demanding in the Gospel, I think. It is meant to push the individual to very seriously consider forgiving those we hold anything against.

Yes, the death penalty is not justice, it is basically revenge. However, most of our “justice” system is compelled by revenge and protection, not correction. Yes, it does put us on the “same level of thinking”, but if we come aware of this “same level” and experience it, in some ways has its merits. Can you can relate to the brothers? I have to go to that “level” and admit that I am capable. Can you admit that you are capable, or instead can you not relate to them at all? Does your mind never disvalue another person when they have done great evil? Not even for a split second? Maybe when you were younger?

Thanks for repeating the call for compassion and forgiveness!

Well I am someone who thinks that a person shouldn’t get away with it. But I don’t remember ever thinking a person should be killed for their deed.

I can relate to the brothers in that, if I had been of their mind I could have done the same, but not being of their mind, I can’t relate to their action. We all get angry at people and can have a instant reaction to a situation, be it verbal or physical, but not many of us plot a plan to blow people up.

That video you posted, I don’t remember hearing or seeing it. I found it disrespectful, very child like in the minds of “mature” people. And the end I was for a second worried that the cross would fall on someone!

Have a nice weekend

 

[OneSheep]

Well I am someone who thinks that a person shouldn’t get away with it. But I don’t remember ever thinking a person should be killed for their deed.

I can relate to the brothers in that, if I had been of their mind I could have done the same, but not being of their mind, I can’t relate to their action. We all get angry at people and can have a instant reaction to a situation, be it verbal or physical, but not many of us plot a plan to blow people up.

That video you posted, I don’t remember hearing or seeing it. I found it disrespectful, very child like in the minds of “mature” people. And the end I was for a second worried that the cross would fall on someone!

Have a nice weekend

I guess you can imagine yourself being so angry that you want someone to die? I think we have discussed this before though. My wife really gets into movie sometimes, and thinks the villain needs to be eliminated.

Maybe the question is why you do *not * think of death for someone you see as villainous? It could be a discipline, it could be that your mind reacts so quickly to the thought of killing that you are not able to notice that it was ever there. No need to dwell on it, though. Praise God for the power of your conscience to discipline your imagination so strongly!

I think that many people wanted the brothers to die for their deeds, whether or not they objectively believe in the death penalty. What about the older brother, did you think for a moment that he “deserved” his fate? I am guessing that you probably did not, or if you did, your mind blocked it out right away. It probably also matters if you were watching the story unfold in real time.

It takes a lot of resentment and other factors (access to weaponry, wilingness to die for their cause) to actually plot what the brothers did. I am sure that they were fully of the mindset that they were carrying out justice, that Americans deserved to die just like Americans kill the people they care about (the ideology they care about also). They most certainly think that they did what they did for God, even though there was evidence that fellow Muslims rejected their zeal and condemnation of “infidels”.

Very busy this weekend, but I will try to make it a “fun” busy! You have a good one too.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I saw the video. In retrospect, what bothered me the most was his unashamed delivery, as if he was proud of what he had done. It was a confession, it was like he was thinking that he was so good by being so honest now. I think he was in the “give me status for being so honest” mode.

Yeah, which would be in line with the fact that he couldn’t just do these killings, but he had to taunt police and make a name for himself. He gave himself the name BTK, and was surely delighted when that became his official reference. One girl in my American Politics class had actually taken a for-credit college course on BTK taught by the police detective that eventually called him. So in case his “signature” wasn’t clear enough from the crime scene, he made sure to get credit for them. He wrote to the TV stations. So for almost 20 years, he was The Big Deal. Like Batman or something, leaving notes like the Riddler.

The way he got caught, was he sent a message on a floppy disk to the media or police (why he didn’t use paper print out I don’t know but he was probably feeling pretty invulnerable after 20 years of leading the game) that somehow they could figure out what computer he was on, and tracked it down from there.

… we can actually think of the man as having the content for shame of a small child. Imagine an infant destroying something very beautiful and valuable, and not understanding the impact of his act. This man was no child, but his ability to see value in the other was undeveloped, perhaps completely undeveloped. It could be that all of his other relationships, at church and with his wife, were based solely on his need for status/sex/power, that there was no reciprocity of emotion whatsoever.

It could be. He saw the victims as valuable to his “needs” for his “problem” as he calls it, and to his self-aggrandizement. So he may have not “developed” shame … I can’t tell you. But could his case suggest that maybe the sense of shame, though the capacity to process it is obviously genetic, is not necessarily a given? I mention this because of my assertion that revenge might depend on learning. Maybe this sort of shame does, too? Not making claims, just waving my favorite ideas about it.

It is true, though, that sociopaths can turn empathy “on”, like Simpleas once pointed out.

Yeah that’s funny all that about how he wanted to make the victim as comfortably as possible, loosened their ropes at times, etc. So he was going to get his kicks, watch them suffer as he repeatedly almost strangled them, only to let them get breathing again and do it again.

One thing you may not have seen (I don’t know if I read this or saw him describe it) is how he practiced on animals before he tried to strangle a human being. He was a dog catcher, so he had plenty of chance to test. He experimented with them just to see how much force it would take to strangle, and let them back out. He seemed to be going after the observation of the victim while it suffered its last panic on the way to death. If he had enough time and the situation was “under control” he could get several “strangle shows” out of each victim.

However, I am wondering if this is an immediate effect of oxytocin. The sociopath has to decide to behave in a loving way, and the hormone gets turned on. His default, however, is totally flat toward others.

Could be; I don’t know anything about oxytocin but I’m considering taking biological psychology this fall so maybe that will cover it.

How about this one? Hit any triggers? Make sure you have your sound on.

It didn’t hit the trigger of “omg look at what they are doing.” I’ve watched several beheading videos, so by comparison this one was tame and it didn’t trigger that.

But it did trigger one thing about myself I never really isolated until about a week ago when I saw the cop putting down the bikini girl. Same concept, spooky implications. I’ve done so much interior work to cut through my own layers of darkness, that this one kind of surprised me. I’ve said things like this but never felt them as a reflex.

That is, when they got up on the ladder, I was actually hoping that I was going to “get to see something.” I mean these are guys who behead people – if they don’t do something pretty spectacular then I feel like I got less thrill for the time invested in watching it, than I could have. Besides these guys are evil, so by golly I want to see some “really impressive” evil or why bother? Why hate on a guy whose actions are not as terrible as they could be – is it that I want to hate this guy and my ego wants a Good Excuse so it had better be bad?

When I saw that cop put the girl down, I felt terrible for the girl, but in retrospect I am attracted in some strange way to either seeing the evil, or wanting to have “good reason” to process some Hate Energy for the perp. It’s like as angry as I was at him, I wanted to see him really hurt her badly and I wanted to see him be unfair, so that I could witness this one-sided aggression against a helpless victim. Why do I have this desire to see this unfairness played out, just so I can get all righteous about the evils in others? Definitely something very “dark” to explore here. Did NOT want the girl to be hurt, but I wanted to see an unfair aggressor acting against her – like sorry she had to be hurt but I need to see a show here. Like an angry mob assembled to see their favorite band, but the band had to cancel. How am I any better, and how can I not “forgive” others.

That said, I place not only a zero value, but a negative value on the lives of terrorists whose who goal in life is to kill others because of their beliefs. I’d like to see them dead; I really don’t care one way or the other if they suffer.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I may post a thread on that one some day, just to work on triggers. Sure, if we saw that sort of thing every day, we would become desensitized. Do you see what I mean? If we are ready for something really awful, it becomes less of an issue. Maybe if I watched the news on TV every day, I would be more desensitized. I haven’t done so for decades, and I don’t watch any violent TV or movies.

Yeah, like tolerance to some drugs. Keep needing more to notice any effect. What I do find, is that watching it acted in a movie is actually more satisfying, because there we have experts manipulating the scenes to design my emotional trajectory, so they know what the triggers are and use them. Just curious, have you ever seen God Bless America? It’s really easy to have empathy for this man and girl as they kill people.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, MS!

It could be. He saw the victims as valuable to his “needs” for his “problem” as he calls it, and to his self-aggrandizement. So he may have not “developed” shame … I can’t tell you. But could his case suggest that maybe the sense of shame, though the capacity to process it is obviously genetic, is not necessarily a given? I mention this because of my assertion that revenge might depend on learning. Maybe this sort of shame does, too? Not making claims, just waving my favorite ideas about it.

Well, if is not a “given”, then the the human still has the DNA to be extremely open to the automaticity of shame. Shame is part of the “thinking fast” operation of the mind, it happens before the frontal lobes get a chance at it. Obviously, though, either nature or nurture results in anomalies such as Rader. The Tsarnaev brothers are not such anomalies in my estimation. They wanted justice.

But it did trigger one thing about myself I never really isolated until about a week ago when I saw the cop putting down the bikini girl. Same concept, spooky implications. I’ve done so much interior work to cut through my own layers of darkness, that this one kind of surprised me. I’ve said things like this but never felt them as a reflex.

That is, when they got up on the ladder, I was actually hoping that I was going to “get to see something.” I mean these are guys who behead people – if they don’t do something pretty spectacular then I feel like I got less thrill for the time invested in watching it, than I could have. Besides these guys are evil, so by golly I want to see some “really impressive” evil or why bother? Why hate on a guy whose actions are not as terrible as they could be – is it that I want to hate this guy and my ego wants a Good Excuse so it had better be bad?

When I saw that cop put the girl down, I felt terrible for the girl, but in retrospect I am attracted in some strange way to either seeing the evil, or wanting to have “good reason” to process some Hate Energy for the perp. It’s like as angry as I was at him, I wanted to see him really hurt her badly and I wanted to see him be unfair, so that I could witness this one-sided aggression against a helpless victim. Why do I have this desire to see this unfairness played out, just so I can get all righteous about the evils in others? Definitely something very “dark” to explore here. Did NOT want the girl to be hurt, but I wanted to see an unfair aggressor acting against her – like sorry she had to be hurt but I need to see a show here. Like an angry mob assembled to see their favorite band, but the band had to cancel. How am I any better, and how can I not “forgive” others.

Your inner work is confirmed in brain science. I try to stay away from the use of the word “ego” because in these times the word connotes some resentment, which I do not have. I read a book on the science of morality, and what I gleaned from it is that we indeed have a feeling of righteousness. When we do good, when we think about ourselves as the “good guy” in a movie, when our minds imagine how we would do the right thing in a situation, we get a shot of “happy” neurotransmission. We get the same rush when we dismiss an argument we don’t like. The brain gives us carrots. Isn’t it amazing? Beautiful? I think so.

So, I leave the word “ego” out of it with all the garbage it implies (ego-centrism, ego-maniac, etc. etc.). Instead, I really think that the “carrot” aspect belongs to the part of the brain that is best described as the conscience. If you feel good when you do good or think about the right way, even though it means that someone else holds a lower card, you are human, and the process is beautiful.

That said, I place not only a zero value, but a negative value on the lives of terrorists whose who goal in life is to kill others because of their beliefs. I’d like to see them dead; I really don’t care one way or the other if they suffer.

Well, if I could still say that, I would say that I have not yet forgiven. What is forgiveness from the heart if I still want someone dead, or I perceive that they have negative value? You see, we can relate to terrorists. They want someone dead too, they want justice. Seeing negative value of a human is blindness, MS. Terrorists are blinded by resentment, they do not know what they are doing.

Whenever I think negatively about anyone, I know that I am blinded. Wanting to be free from the blindness, I look for the reasons why people do things. If the reason is because they are "bad, prideful, ego-centric, evil, fanatical, Islamist, fundamentalist, all of the stereotypes that carry resentment emotion, then the reason falls short. People do not do things because of “what they are” in terms of choices. People do things because of what they want and what they see. I have to get into “what does the evildoer see?” “what does the evildoer not see?” I pray for the gift of understanding, and understanding comes. At the end, I see the evildoer as no different from me. I could have done what they did, given their scope and wants (genetically programmed wants, i.e. “justice”). I see their good intent, their beauty, and yes, their “innocence”, in a manner of speaking.

(cont’d)

 

[OneSheep]

Continued reply to Mystical Seeker:

In the mean time, when we see someone do something bad and we condemn the act and the person, our conscience gives us a carrot but we are reminded of the stick when we think of the person we resent. When we see someone do good and we praise that, our conscience gives us a carrot. When we do good, our conscience gives us a carrot. When we do evil, the conscience inflicts a stick on us, we feel self-condemnation, guilt. The negative image of an evildoer is functioning, providing us with something to measure against. It is all automatic and subconscious, until we do the inner work. In my view, your frank admission to seeking a way to feel good by seeing bad acts is a great step in the right direction. Now… find the good intent of the Creator who made your mind work this way.

The brothers were acting from their consciences. They saw Americans and what we monetarily support and vote for as evil. They got shots of “happy” as they planned and carried out their horrific acts. They were robots. We are all robots when we are caught up in resentment. It seems like “free will”, and yes it is. The will is free, but limited by blindness and driven by an imposed compulsion (a beautiful, genetically imposed complulsion).

The call to forgive is a call to life! A life free from the mechanical automaticity of our nature. The call to forgive is a means by which we can truly love and care about even the “worst” of evildoers. It is a door to unfettered compassion. And just maybe we can inspire such forgiveness in them!

Have a great Sunday bro.

 

[simpleas]

I guess you can imagine yourself being so angry that you want someone to die? I think we have discussed this before though. My wife really gets into movie sometimes, and thinks the villain needs to be eliminated.

Maybe the question is why you do *not * think of death for someone you see as villainous? It could be a discipline, it could be that your mind reacts so quickly to the thought of killing that you are not able to notice that it was ever there. No need to dwell on it, though. Praise God for the power of your conscience to discipline your imagination so strongly!

I think that many people wanted the brothers to die for their deeds, whether or not they objectively believe in the death penalty. What about the older brother, did you think for a moment that he “deserved” his fate? I am guessing that you probably did not, or if you did, your mind blocked it out right away. It probably also matters if you were watching the story unfold in real time.

It takes a lot of resentment and other factors (access to weaponry, wilingness to die for their cause) to actually plot what the brothers did. I am sure that they were fully of the mindset that they were carrying out justice, that Americans deserved to die just like Americans kill the people they care about (the ideology they care about also). They most certainly think that they did what they did for God, even though there was evidence that fellow Muslims rejected their zeal and condemnation of “infidels”.

Very busy this weekend, but I will try to make it a “fun” busy! You have a good one too.

Hi, onesheep, hope you had a fun weekend, I celebrated my birthday!

Yeah, I hear sometimes the words, “serves them right, or they deserved that” I would have thought the same, but, from what I remember, after childhood, teen years, I started to think “yeah but”…I always have this little voice inside that relents my mind into thinking, yeah but maybe this or maybe that.

I normally think that when police go after a dangerous person, that it’s likely they will die, it’s a sort of “normal” outcome of a chase, but I don’t usually be as I might while watching a movie, “go get em and shoot em down”…it’s different in the real world…

 

[OneSheep]

Hi, onesheep, hope you had a fun weekend, I celebrated my birthday!

Yeah, I hear sometimes the words, “serves them right, or they deserved that” I would have thought the same, but, from what I remember, after childhood, teen years, I started to think “yeah but”…I always have this little voice inside that relents my mind into thinking, yeah but maybe this or maybe that.

I normally think that when police go after a dangerous person, that it’s likely they will die, it’s a sort of “normal” outcome of a chase, but I don’t usually be as I might while watching a movie, “go get em and shoot em down”…it’s different in the real world…

Aha! There it is, now I understand. That little voice, of course, is your conscience. See, your mind is working so fast that you can’t see it happening. I once heard a woman speaker say, “If you could watch all of your thoughts slowly, like a crawl, you would just laugh.” Our reactions, and reactions to reactions, are so quick that it takes a lot of “slowing down” in order to catch them.

We condemn ourselves for having certain thoughts. “If I think that, I am a bad person, just like that person.” So, the mind may go into a self-protective denial. Denial, as such, has its place in keeping a person from going into a self-destructive spiral, so it has a protective function. I have been in denial often, when I do not want to accept something about myself or someone else.

So, I am suggesting that the discipline of the “yeah, but” has served you well. However, the “yeah, but” can also represent something that internally you resent, such as the part of your mind that wishes bad upon another person.

Of course, it is normal, human and beneficial for all that we not want to think about doing hurtful things to another. The question is, can we forgive ourselves for having such thoughts of hurting others? Can we reconcile with the part of our mind that considers hurting others? We fear such a move, we avoid such a move out of fear that if we reconcile with that part of the mind, it will have its way with us.

It does not. We can reconcile with those parts of our minds, and that reconciliation leads to an inner peace and acceptance, a non-dualism, but that “part” (the part that comes up with the idea of hurting someone else) does not go away, and neither does the “part” that disciplines ourselves not to think such thoughts!

Are you following me on this? We can observe both, the part of our mind that comes up with the hurtful thought, and the part that resents and reacts to those thoughts. We can observe them both and see their beauty, their place. And yes, we may laugh.

To do no less is to remain “candles in the wind” so to speak. The Tsarnaev brothers were robots. They saw America doing bad, and they reacted. Those of us who resented the Tsarnaev brothers were also acting mechanically, our consciences mechanically resented the brothers and wished ill upon them.

Jesus calls us away from such mechanics, to live, to have a transcending freedom.

Thanks, and Happy Birthday! :extrahappy: :dancing: :bounce:

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The call to forgive is a call to life! A life free from the mechanical automaticity of our nature. The call to forgive is a means by which we can truly love and care about even the “worst” of evildoers. It is a door to unfettered compassion. And just maybe we can inspire such forgiveness in them!

Have a great Sunday bro.

I did, and I trust you did as well.

If you can believe this, I don’t have anything to comment on in your replies; it all made sense to me.

MS

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, MS

Your post:
Mystical Seeker:

That said, I place not only a zero value, but a negative value on the lives of terrorists whose who goal in life is to kill others because of their beliefs. I’d like to see them dead; I really don’t care one way or the other if they suffer.

My response:
"OneSheep:

Well, if I could still say that, I would say that I have not yet forgiven. What is forgiveness from the heart if I still want someone dead, or I perceive that they have negative value? You see, we can relate to terrorists. They want someone dead too, they want justice. Seeing negative value of a human is blindness, MS. Terrorists are blinded by resentment, they do not know what they are doing.

Whenever I think negatively about anyone, I know that I am blinded. Wanting to be free from the blindness, I look for the reasons why people do things. If the reason is because they are "bad, prideful, ego-centric, evil, fanatical, Islamist, fundamentalist, all of the stereotypes that carry resentment emotion, then the reason falls short. People do not do things because of “what they are” in terms of choices. People do things because of what they want and what they see. I have to get into “what does the evildoer see?” “what does the evildoer not see?” I pray for the gift of understanding, and understanding comes. At the end, I see the evildoer as no different from me. I could have done what they did, given their scope and wants (genetically programmed wants, i.e. “justice”). I see their good intent, their beauty, and yes, their “innocence”, in a manner of speaking.!

The call to forgive is a call to life! A life free from the mechanical automaticity of our nature. The call to forgive is a means by which we can truly love and care about even the “worst” of evildoers. It is a door to unfettered compassion. And just maybe we can inspire such forgiveness in them!

Your response:

I did, and I trust you did as well.

If you can believe this, I don’t have anything to comment on in your replies; it all made sense to me.

MS

Yes, I believe it, but you and I have very different definitions of forgiveness. Can a person forgive someone and not care if they suffer? Can a person forgive someone but want them dead? In that case, one or more of those who crucified Jesus could have forgiven Him while they were crucifying Him.

What is your definition of forgiveness? I can accept whatever definition you have, but then I will have to find a new word to accurately discuss this with you.

For example, if I observe that you have dropped all negative value of a person you once resented, that you now see their beauty, that you understand their motives and humanity, that you no longer wish ill upon them, that you see them no different than yourself, what verb would you use to describe what happened?

Put some light on the subject. I am sure to learn something.

Thanks.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Yes, I believe it, but you and I have very different definitions of forgiveness. Can a person forgive someone and not care if they suffer? Can a person forgive someone but want them dead? In that case, one or more of those who crucified Jesus could have forgiven Him while they were crucifying Him.

If it’s kill or be killed, I don’t have to attribute evil motives to the other. The other is acting out of whatever serves as TRVTH to them. Acting out of my truth, I would preserve myself and those I personally care about, in preference to others who would kill me.

If I wish them to suffer, then I haven’t forgiven them. But in self-defense, I don’t have to judge them but just anticipate their potentially dangerous moves. So in other words I can be afraid of a bear coming after me, and would rather shoot it than let it kill me. If humans are overtly trying to kill me, then they are a threat like the bear, except smarter and with better weapons.

What is your definition of forgiveness? I can accept whatever definition you have, but then I will have to find a new word to accurately discuss this with you.

For example, if I observe that you have dropped all negative value of a person you once resented, that you now see their beauty, that you understand their motives and humanity, that you no longer wish ill upon them, that you see them no different than yourself, what verb would you use to describe what happened?

Put some light on the subject. I am sure to learn something.

Thanks.

Part of this I’m just working through, but as I’m typing this, I have to go awk for a while, so if I don’t get back to it, feel free to ping me.

 

[OneSheep]

If it’s kill or be killed, I don’t have to attribute evil motives to the other. The other is acting out of whatever serves as TRVTH to them. Acting out of my truth, I would preserve myself and those I personally care about, in preference to others who would kill me.

If I wish them to suffer, then I haven’t forgiven them. But in self-defense, I don’t have to judge them but just anticipate their potentially dangerous moves. So in other words I can be afraid of a bear coming after me, and would rather shoot it than let it kill me. If humans are overtly trying to kill me, then they are a threat like the bear, except smarter and with better weapons.

Good Morning!

Please note: this thread is not about forgiving someone attacking you in the moment. I think that one step in forgiveness is to do everything possible first to get a situation under control. If someone is attacking you, there is no time to forgive, only time to protect.

Arguably there are people right now that are a threat to us, right? “Terrorists”. If we hold it against them, again, it is much easier to forgive when we can do what we can to get into control of the situation. Here is what we can do to get in control of the terrorism situation:

1. Pray
2. Contact the powers-that-be to use all non-violent means possible before resorting to war.
3. Forgive, in hopes that the example of such forgiveness reaches the “terrorists”.

Part of this I’m just working through, but as I’m typing this, I have to go awk for a while, so if I don’t get back to it, feel free to ping me.

Okay.

 

[simpleas]

Aha! There it is, now I understand. That little voice, of course, is your conscience. See, your mind is working so fast that you can’t see it happening. I once heard a woman speaker say, “If you could watch all of your thoughts slowly, like a crawl, you would just laugh.” Our reactions, and reactions to reactions, are so quick that it takes a lot of “slowing down” in order to catch them.

We condemn ourselves for having certain thoughts. “If I think that, I am a bad person, just like that person.” So, the mind may go into a self-protective denial. Denial, as such, has its place in keeping a person from going into a self-destructive spiral, so it has a protective function. I have been in denial often, when I do not want to accept something about myself or someone else.

So, I am suggesting that the discipline of the “yeah, but” has served you well. However, the “yeah, but” can also represent something that internally you resent, such as the part of your mind that wishes bad upon another person.

Of course, it is normal, human and beneficial for all that we not want to think about doing hurtful things to another. The question is, can we forgive ourselves for having such thoughts of hurting others? Can we reconcile with the part of our mind that considers hurting others? We fear such a move, we avoid such a move out of fear that if we reconcile with that part of the mind, it will have its way with us.

It does not. We can reconcile with those parts of our minds, and that reconciliation leads to an inner peace and acceptance, a non-dualism, but that “part” (the part that comes up with the idea of hurting someone else) does not go away, and neither does the “part” that disciplines ourselves not to think such thoughts!

Are you following me on this? We can observe both, the part of our mind that comes up with the hurtful thought, and the part that resents and reacts to those thoughts. We can observe them both and see their beauty, their place. And yes, we may laugh.

To do no less is to remain “candles in the wind” so to speak. The Tsarnaev brothers were robots. They saw America doing bad, and they reacted. Those of us who resented the Tsarnaev brothers were also acting mechanically, our consciences mechanically resented the brothers and wished ill upon them.

Jesus calls us away from such mechanics, to live, to have a transcending freedom.

Thanks, and Happy Birthday! :extrahappy: :dancing: :bounce:

Thanks

I’m not as good as you and MS at writing what I think. But yes my conscience doesn’t allow me to continually condemn anyone. It’s definatly a process, as I know when I was younger I was quick to assume something about another, but through time I would think that if I had been in their shoes could I have done the same thing, and if I had would I want someone to be compassionate about it and give me a second chance, if I realised it was a wrong.

I think a person can forgive themselves for thinking that others should be hurt for their crime, it’s the conditioning at childhood I’m thinking about, somethings we are taught early on may be harder to let go off well into adulthood. If you do, some people see it as going against their ways, sort of not being allowed to think freely, that you should condemn certain sins, or else you are argeeing and siding with the sinner, when in fact you see it as peace making, and accepting of another person.

I don’t know what the brothers up bringing was like, most of the time when people do these sorts of things, there has always been a “problem” in the family. Not saying this is the case for everyone, but I do see a pattern when it comes to human behavior.

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks

I’m not as good as you and MS at writing what I think. But yes my conscience doesn’t allow me to continually condemn anyone. It’s definatly a process, as I know when I was younger I was quick to assume something about another, but through time I would think that if I had been in their shoes could I have done the same thing, and if I had would I want someone to be compassionate about it and give me a second chance, if I realised it was a wrong.

Yes!

I think a person can forgive themselves for thinking that others should be hurt for their crime, it’s the conditioning at childhood I’m thinking about, somethings we are taught early on may be harder to let go off well into adulthood. If you do, some people see it as going against their ways, sort of not being allowed to think freely, that you should condemn certain sins, or else you are argeeing and siding with the sinner, when in fact you see it as peace making, and accepting of another person.

Yes, again. People equate forgiveness with condoning or acquittal. People think that if you understand and forgive people from the heart you are making excuses for them, trying to keep them from receiving consequences. That is incorrect.

On the other hand, it may be inappropriate to tell a child to forgive themselves for thinking that people should be punished for crimes. The child is developing a conscience, and the compulsion to punish is part of it, it is part of our nature. It may be confusing and/or counterproductive. We want the child to condemn such thoughts, right? They do not have the awareness to simply observe them and not let them guide their actions, which takes a more mature approach. I may be wrong about that, but I think that if a young man condemns his own thoughts of beating another, that would help lead to a better outcome.

I don’t know what the brothers up bringing was like, most of the time when people do these sorts of things, there has always been a “problem” in the family. Not saying this is the case for everyone, but I do see a pattern when it comes to human behavior.

Yeah, well if we try to speculate that the brothers did what they did because there were problems in the family, we would get a lot of flack, Simpleas. And the flack would be well-founded, loads of people get brought up in lousy family situations and never commit crimes.

Those that indoctrinated the brothers and failed to explain or encourage forgiveness of Americans share some responsibility, but actually all of us share responsibility to the degree that we do not forgive those we hold something against. What goes around comes around, and around and around. We reap what we sow.

Bottom line: the brothers are completely responsible for their choices. All of us, however, share responsibility for the world being the way it is.

Thanks

 

[simpleas]

Yes!

Yes, again. People equate forgiveness with condoning or acquittal. People think that if you understand and forgive people from the heart you are making excuses for them, trying to keep them from receiving consequences. That is incorrect.

On the other hand, it may be inappropriate to tell a child to forgive themselves for thinking that people should be punished for crimes. The child is developing a conscience, and the compulsion to punish is part of it, it is part of our nature. It may be confusing and/or counterproductive. We want the child to condemn such thoughts, right? They do not have the awareness to simply observe them and not let them guide their actions, which takes a more mature approach. I may be wrong about that, but I think that if a young man condemns his own thoughts of beating another, that would help lead to a better outcome.

Yeah, well if we try to speculate that the brothers did what they did because there were problems in the family, we would get a lot of flack, Simpleas. And the flack would be well-founded, loads of people get brought up in lousy family situations and never commit crimes.

Those that indoctrinated the brothers and failed to explain or encourage forgiveness of Americans share some responsibility, but actually all of us share responsibility to the degree that we do not forgive those we hold something against. What goes around comes around, and around and around. We reap what we sow.

Bottom line: the brothers are completely responsible for their choices. All of us, however, share responsibility for the world being the way it is.

Thanks

I just mean that if they were brought up to think a certain way about the world around them that has a consequence to how they may have then justified their action to them self. I agree that it was their own choice to act in this way.

 

[simpleas]

edition.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/tsarnaev-boston-marathon-bombing-death-sentencing/

You may have already seen this?

How brave of those people to share their thoughts, tell of their pain and suffering.

They are very honest, especially the guy at the end.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

edition.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/tsarnaev-boston-marathon-bombing-death-sentencing/

You may have already seen this?

How brave of those people to share their thoughts, tell of their pain and suffering.

They are very honest, especially the guy at the end.

Thank you for the link. It was interesting. I think the first lady said it well, that she regrets ever wanting to hear him talk. So often it seems that we think the victims, in order to heal, have to see some sort of change in the perpetrator. Like showing remorse, or like being killed and/or tortured because after all, what did their victims go through?

This lady shows that if a victim needs to hear or see the right things from or about the attacker in order to heal, don’t count on it.

Besides what if he were a better actor, and more convincing to her? Why should her emotional life be contingent upon what this person says – after she has already suffered the loss and nothing he says or does can reduce that. It’s all in the mind, other than that, which is why Jesus said to forgive – so that we may be at peace. He demonstrated “they know not what they do” type forgiveness.

If this guy buys into some brainwash religion that says they must kill those who don’t believe like them, why would you expect remorse from him any more than you’d expect the Spanish Inquisition for killing heretics?

The one at the end was pretty interesting because it said they chose to “honor” the life of the child, by rejecting the apology saying that the killer chose to kill so they will choose life. To my way of thinking, rejecting the apology and refusing to forgive, could stand in the way of their own healing. I’d like to chalk it up to grief; if they go to their graves without forgiving him (whether or not they believe his message btw) they may miss out on a chance to experience a more “purified” love. Love is tried in fire, and purified when it acts even amid the flames. So others are welcome to have another opinion; everybody processes grief in different ways but “forgiveness” is just one of several tools people use.

 

[OneSheep]

edition.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/tsarnaev-boston-marathon-bombing-death-sentencing/

You may have already seen this?

How brave of those people to share their thoughts, tell of their pain and suffering.

They are very honest, especially the guy at the end.

Hi Simpleas,

I have been meaning to get back on here and comment. I did not hear the apology, I only heard snippets of what the media provided.

If some people condition their forgiveness on the remorse of the perpetrator, they may now be willing to forgive. It is much, much more challenging to forgive those who are not sorry. That last speaker you referred to said that he had already forgiven, even though he said “the apology was enough for me”.

Indeed, we can hardly call our American government “sorry” for every day flying drones over Muslim lands that Dzokhar cares about, killing what he probably believes are people fighting for justice and establishment of what he sees as good and right. We keep flying drones, killing people he cares about, generating “collateral damage”. We, the American public, are sheltered from the victim statements of all the “collateral damage” we cause over there.

So, for Dzokhar to forgive an unrepentant American government (and, unfortunately, those of us that support the government by taxes and votes) he would have to forgive without the Americans expressing any sorrow.

This is the very same challenge that we have concerning those we seek to destroy anywhere in the world. Forgiveness of this kind may or may not lead to a change in our means of dealing with the problem of terrorism, but it is our calling, a call to love our enemies, and a way to a real world peace.

Thanks for the link, and for responding.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

If some people condition their forgiveness on the remorse of the perpetrator, they may now be willing to forgive. It is much, much more challenging to forgive those who are not sorry. That last speaker you referred to said that he had already forgiven, even though he said “the apology was enough for me”.

It is much more challenging, just as it is No Big Deal to love those who love us. We “forgive” someone who really is remorseful and penitent and begs for forgiveness, or “love” someone who is nice to us and tells them they love us. These are only the first steps toward the level of perfection we are called by Jesus.

The next step for forgiveness is to forgive the unrepentant. The next step in love is to love our enemies.

To say that we somehow must require something from the perpetrator before we can forgive, is to insist the perpetrator do the spiritual work for us that we don’t know how to do and then deliver it to us in a nice package with sugar on it so we may taste of its anticipated sweetness.

With God this is possible; with man it is statistically absurd to expect. But more likely, by insisting on this worldly display, we will miss tasting the sweetness of God which is greater than any amount of seeing those we hate, suffering or showing remorse.

We can justify it to ourselves and everyone else, and “others” may agree that we “should be upset” but that doesn’t change the dynamics within which the Holy Spirit operates in the hearts of those who are truly open to Him. The one who does not forgive, basically is holding a filibuster to prevent self-healing.

So we can tell God “I didn’t forgive that person because they didn’t say they were sorry with cherries on it” but seeing as He sent His Son to tell us to love our enemies and forgive others and turn the other cheek etc. and ended up killed for no crime but for saying those things, I’m pretty sure He knows that trick already.