How do we forgive Osama Bin Laden?

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The challenge of the Gospel - forgive 70 times 7 times - love our enemies - do not judge - the Lord’s prayer calling us to forgive - is a call for behavior contrary to our first nature, which is to seek revenge, hate our enemy, etc. The question is, how do we forgive a guy like Osama Bin Laden?

We all know the reasons not to forgive, and people presented plenty of them on my last thread. Forgiving OBL is NOT EASY. There are many roadblocks, not the least of which is may be my own desire to beat him to a pulp, kill him, and then continue to beat him. The hate comes naturally, and perhaps immediately, but there comes a time to obey the gospel and forgive. This thread is for those who are trying to forgive, and those who have successfully forgiven.

I will throw in a few steps I have learned to take in forgiveness. They are not in any special order, but I present them in the way that I found works to forgive those I have no opportunity to meet. Others may have additional insights, and I would absolutely love to see them.
  1. First, I seek to understand why the person did what he did. I learn as much as I can about the person, how they perceive the world, who they consider their enemies and why, etc. How does the person “know not what he is doing”? Whose humanity does he not consider, and why? I know I understand when I come to the point that I can say “I could have done that if I had lived his life”. This step is not easy, but none of the steps are.
  2. Next, driving through the mess of hatred with a bulldozer of love, I pray for the person. It is a total act of blind obedience to, and appreciation of, Jesus’ words. I force myself to pray for his children, friends, and well-being. Sure, I also pray that he learn to see that his enemies are beautiful people. I pray that he learn to forgive, and seek non-violent ways of dealing with those he disagrees with, but I have learned that I have to pray for more than just his change of heart. (praying for his change of heart has more to do with step 3). In my prayer, I eventually try to visualize that I am talking with the person, sharing a beer or a meal with them.
  3. My last, but vital, step is very tricky. I have to somehow get in control of the threat or fear. This step is important for me, because all of the love and understanding I can muster will not stop my mind’s drive to deal with the threat of an enemy. If I feel more in control through prayer, praying that God will protect me (us), then that will suffice. If police action is underway, that may be enough. This step is tricky because we naturally to jump to it first (for good reason!) and seek to use aggression or other means to deal with the problem. Most of us, however, are not in the position to do this in the case of OBL. I spend time writing letters to politicians.
I know I have forgiven when I no longer condemn, nor do I seek to punish. I may continue to want protection, and that protection may even involve someone either locking up or killing the person, but I can actually empathize with, and love the person, even with all of their blindness.

Incidentally, on this September 11 I will take the time to celebrate what is much closer to home, 29 years of marriage to the most wonderful woman in the world.
 
First of all I do not NOT believe this character is dead…this event occured just three days after pres.Obama showed us his birth certificate on the boob tube…and it was a phony…then came this absurd attack…one never …NEVER kills an opposing leader,one takes him prisoner to use as a bargaining chip…for ransom…to release prisoners,for info…etc…then to claim his body was tossed overboard as food for sharks is absurd…this would never hold up in court. I believe its all a hoax and the truth will out. As to forgiving a murderer etc…no way.and what does that mean anyway.Does that mean you are a superior person …forgiving stalin,hitler,mao ,castro etc etc…come on now,…have lunch with Al Capone or Jack the ripper and nod with them that they were picked on during recess and thus had to turn to a life of crime…yeh sure…turn the other cheek then deck em…
 
I guess I don’t feel the need to personally say “I forgive you, Osama Bin Laden” anymore than I feel the need to say “I forgive you, Hitler” or “I forgive you, Nero”. They’re all dead and gone and in God’s hands now (conspiracy theories aside).

They’re but for the grace of God go I. That’s what I always come back to. Individual people have done atrocious things throughout history. Personally, it makes me sad more than angry. How sad it must be in that person’s soul for them to be able to justify what it is they did. How easy it is to be led so perversely astray when we fail to listen to the Lord’s direction for our life.

I’ve heard it said by some Catholic apologists that we do not have an obligation to forgive the unrepentant. But holding on to anger only hurts the one who holds on to it. It’s like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to get sick.
 
John_Pascendi said:
. As to forgiving a murderer etc…no way.and what does that mean anyway.Does that mean you are a superior person …forgiving stalin,hitler,mao ,castro etc etc…come on now,…have lunch with Al Capone or Jack the ripper and nod with them that they were picked on during recess and thus had to turn to a life of crime…yeh sure…turn the other cheek then deck em…
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I appreciate your sense of humor. You bring up a very important aspect of forgiveness, and specifically resentment. It seems to me that when we see or experience hurtful behavior, our mind wishes to “put that person in their place”, which is to condemn the person. When we forgive, we reassign, we reconcile with the person to equal status. One may very well sense that by forgiving, “God approves of me more”, which may seem like an elevation to some superiority. So be it. The world will be a better place, the “kingdom”, when everyone forgives instead of doing what OBL did. The real benefit of forgiveness is what it does for us spiritually.
 
**re: Osama bin Laden **
John_Pascendi said:
First of all I do not NOT believe this character is dead…this event occured just three days after pres.Obama …
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I’m no defender of President Obama (on social issues most of all) but with all due respect, this is ludicrous.

So the Navy Seals, CIA, DOD, etc were all in on the big scam?

The internet age sure has been a field day for partisans and conspiracy theorists.

That said, to the original point, I think justice was administered and I’m not going to tie myself in knots thinking of the ultimate fate of the late mass murderer.
 
What is it about the actions of OBL that you, personally, have to forgive him for? If you have lost a relative or friend in the 9/11 attack, then you have my sympathies and I can only urge you to pray.

If, however, you lost no one, but are seeking to forgive him on behalf of your nation, you might do well to reflect on the many thousands that the US has killed over the decades in South & Central America, aqnd other parts of the world, to recognise that 9/11 was a relatively minor event on the global stage, and that each nation has as much to seek forgiveness for as it has to forgive.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I guess I don’t feel the need to personally say “I forgive you, Osama Bin Laden” anymore than I feel the need to say “I forgive you, Hitler” or “I forgive you, Nero”. They’re all dead and gone and in God’s hands now (conspiracy theories aside).

I’ve heard it said by some Catholic apologists that we do not have an obligation to forgive the unrepentant. But holding on to anger only hurts the one who holds on to it. It’s like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to get sick.
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You have a good point. Forgiving OBL may have less significance now that he is dead. More important now is, how do I forgive all people involved in Al Qaeda? Better yet, how do we reconcile with all people who hate us? I think the reconciliation starts with forgiveness on the part of those who perceive that they have been violated (which happens to be both sides) .

For example, our US military is clearly, in the minds of many, “trespassing” in the government of Saudi Arabia, as well as with the presence of our military. Without a doubt, our involvement there is well intended. However, some people over there are extremely angry about it; wouldn’t it be nice if they forgave us? Hopefully such forgiveness would not take energy away from their own efforts to end U.S. military presence on their soil, but instead motivate them to find peaceful, rather than violent, means of solving the problem.

As far as “obligation” to forgive the unrepentant, I agree with you that it rather misses the point. If all we do is for obligation, rather than simple compassion or freedom, then life itself is a matter of jumping through the “hoops” we perceive that God is holding out for us in order to win salvation. This was fine for me when I was younger, but now I see that forgiveness is salvific in itself.
 
philial said:
… each nation has as much to seek forgiveness for as it has to forgive.
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I agree wholeheartedly. But every nation is a group of individuals, and in order for forgiveness or asking for forgiveness to happen, it has to happen individually.

Your post leads to important insight into moving beyond forgiveness in these global situations, and moving onto actual reconciliation (eye to eye) with those we have wronged and who have retaliated. We can ask for forgiveness as a means of setting the tone for such a conversation. Question is, are we sorry? I am, but many of my fellow Americans have little sorrow for the pain, suffering, and trespassing we have done elsewhere. I’m sure there will be people responding to this post saying that no one oversees got less than what they deserved, and that we have every right to… and “those people” are a bunch of (epithet)… etc. Or flat out denial that we have ever done any wrong elsewhere. I am an old pro at blaming and denial too.

My response is that blaming and denial are also part of of the wonder of what it is to be human. Reconciliation frees us from being enslaved by it all.
 
Amen, OneSheep. Ever since Adam said " the woman made me do it" we have all been adept at excuse making and pushing off responsibility, both individually and collectively.
 
Thank you for starting this thread. This topic is near and dear to my heart, and I have received great healing in this area, and it brings me peace and joy even amid circumstances that I find terrible. Jesus said He gives us His peace, not as the world gives. Jesus’ peace is everlasting and unconditional, while the peace the world gives is conditional by definition (the world can only give us “good” conditions but can’t make us peaceful) and lasts only as long as the good conditions do. So what does peace have to do with forgiving OBL? Everything. When we are in a state of unforgiveness, there is anger and turmoil in our hearts, and we have failed to receive the gift that Jesus came to earth to give us.

We don’t forgive others because they deserve it or to do them a favor; we forgive them because we must do it for our own spiritual growth, and to strive to accept the peace Jesus gave us.

I’m alarmed, and even a bit surprised, at some of the anger that has been expressed on this thread, considering the way the OP brought up the topic. Jesus said to forgive our enemies. If they repent and do no more harm, they aren’t our enemies anymore so the words of Jesus no longer apply. Big deal. What challenge is that to our souls? Sure, if they repent and we do not or cannot forgive them, we are hurting ourselves. But if they do not repent and we do not forgive them, we are also hurting ourselves. If we wish to obey Jesus’s teachings, we must go beyond the terrible fear/bribery social and religious training that 99.9% of us were brought up with, and do something challenging enough that it took God condescending to become man to tell us. Any cheap psychologist could have told us to forgive those who are no longer harming us. When Jesus said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do,” there wasn’t even a hint of repentance on the part of those He forgave – so how can it be said that Jesus intended us to only forgive if the other person repents?

Harboring anger and feelings of revenge or desire for punishment or whatever, harms our souls, separates us from God, and doesn’t even feel good compared to letting go of those feelings. It is possible that if we recognize this, that very harm can be instructive and useful in help US repent. Repent of the judgment and desire for revenge.

Turning the other cheek is a whole different matter, and although if we want to be truly Christlike we must do that, even the Church teaches us that we may kill others in self-defense because we can (or should, I forgot the exact wording) value our own lives above those of an unjust aggressor. The catch is that we must do it in self-defense and not because we wish harm to the other person. I don’t want OBL killed, locked up, or disabled because I’m mad at him; I want him killed, locked up or disabled to protect many lives. I’m not mad at him any more than I am mad at myself or those I love. I slip sometimes, but most of the time these days I remain in this state. OK, I also slip sometimes when other drivers do things that tick me off – but I’m still working on it, and nearly all of that anger is even gone, too. I’d rather just get out of the way of an aggressive, incompetent, or rude driver than to try to “teach them a lesson” like I used to, by blocking them from passing or through other maneuvers. I am happy to say, though, that I have never been a user of long blaring horn honks; I use them only for safety, and once in a long while a really short toot to remind the person in front of me that it’s time to quit texting and drive because the light is green. Nor have I ever gone around flying the bird at other drivers. :rolleyes:

Let’s look at another example which I think makes my point perfectly. The trial of Casey Anthony. After the “not guilty” verdict, facebook exploded with anger and rage. By God, these people wanted blood. Literally. They wanted her dead. Not like she’s ever going to get another chance to commit her alleged crime, so it isn’t for public safety; it is about anger and revenge. Good people, some of them Catholics, were nearly unanimous with their rage and nobody among my FB friends dared speak against them except me. And I did it gently and a bit roundabout, to try to keep from fueling their fires even more or causing them turn their rage against me. IMO these people are at least as dangerous to society than Casey Anthony ever was to anybody else on the planet other than her own child – and that damage was already done by the time of the outbursts.

I don’t believe we should lock up people or hurt/kill them because we are mad at them or because we think they deserve it. We should lock them up because we are rightly afraid of what they will do if they aren’t locked up – or what others might do if they knew they could get away with crime unpunished.

Jesus not only told us to forgive our enemies; he challenged us to love them. If you want a tiny bit of spiritual growth, then limit your love and forgiveness to only “petty” enemies and enemies who repent. If you want to receive the gift of peace from Jesus, go for the big ones. Go for the gusto. Try forgiving OBL, if not in your heart than at least in words and maybe hearing your own words will at least plant a seed. Here. I’ll give you an example: “I love OBL almost as much as I love my own children.” That said, I think he’s dangerous and when he was reportedly killed it didn’t hurt my feelings, but if I don’t love him (or at least make the attempt) then I am picking and choosing Jesus’s teachings to weed out anything He’s told us that makes me uncomfortable.

Whew. I could go on for pages and there was one more major point I intended to make in this post but now I forgot it. :o I’ll post this, take a breath and a break, and check back in after a little while and maybe lay some more love on this thread. :love:

I welcome both supporting and opposing opinions. 🙂

Alan
 
Aw shucks … nobody took me on yet and I’m about to have to leave the Internet zone for the night.

I hope I made my point as to why we should forgive OBL, but the OP subject asks, “how?” So in the few minutes I have left I’ll offer a couple ideas that helped me.

I was very angry at some of my fellow parish leaders who hurt me and others in the parish, and did so with impunity. I was frustrated because not only did they not listen to reason, they blatantly rejected the suggestion that we even consider anything in the Bible (or official diocesan policy for that matter) as even being a factor in how they chose to run the place. Not only that, but the pastor had actually paid for me to go get training in the matters at hand and bring it back to the parish council (I was VP at the time) but when I tried they tried to silence me, yelled at me and impugned my character in front of the whole council, and went ahead and did exactly what they had been doing despite the fact that it was 180 degrees out of phase with what I was taught by the classes Father Art paid for me to attend.

This was back before I felt the peace I feel now, and it was near the beginning of my journey into unconditional forgiveness.

One thing I tried that actually helped reduced my pain was to get out my book, “2000 insults for all occasions” and picked out a half dozen really good insults that applied to them such as, “he’s the type of person who would throw a drowning man both ends of the rope.” 😃 I spent maybe an hour crafting this letter and when I got done, I tried to imagine what they would say if they read it. I felt like I totally owned them. I put them down so bad they were lower than a worm. Then I tore up the letter and never spoke of it again until now.

Another thing that helped was I imagined the perpetrator trying to explain why he forcefully rejected truth and went ahead doing much damage with his actions. I imagined how he would squirm when God asked him, “why did you refuse to listen to My Son?” Then I imagined God sending animals to tear him apart, consumed by fire, and a few other things. I imagined the look on his bloody face, the sounds he would make, the thoughts he would think, and the pain he would endure. At first I was doing this out of a spirit of revenge, but then something happened. It changed me. I started feeling sorry for the guy because he was so far off base that it seemed it may actually happen that God deals with him in similar fashion. He was a total jerk but I just couldn’t stomach seeing him getting torn apart by wolves. That softened my anger against him a great deal. I actually got teary-eyed imagining it taking place.

Can you see why a psychologist test once indicated that I tended toward being passive-aggressive? :rolleyes:

OK, gotta go now. Peace, all! http://bestsmileys.com/peace/2.gif

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
I slip sometimes, but most of the time these days I remain in this state. OK, I also slip sometimes when other drivers do things that tick me off – but I’m still working on it, and nearly all of that anger is even gone, too. I’d rather just get out of the way of an aggressive, incompetent, or rude driver than to try to “teach them a lesson” like I used to, by blocking them from passing or through other maneuvers.

Alan
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Thank you for your long, but insightful post. This is also a topic “dear to my heart”, and I think that Jesus knew very well what he was doing by making it the most specific “action” part of the prayer He taught us. Forgiveness creates the kingdom.

I don’t know if the same miracle happened to you as happened to me when I forgave all I resented, but this could be a topic for a future discussion. I thought that I could never hate or feel angry at someone again, but I still “slip up” plenty. My thoughts on that are that I still have an active “rulebook”. To be human is to have an active personal rulebook, and that function is God-given, though rather mechanical. I have been making a list of my personal rules for a couple years now. It is very interesting to try to consider the origin of each. A guy from the Stanford Forgiveness Project called them “unenforceable rules”.

Some of my rules are downright silly, like “don’t look stupid”. (I incorporated that one from my mother) I have all the standard traffic rules: don’t cut in front of me, don’t taligate me, etc., which are triggered automatically. I have learned that “do not judge” is almost impossible. The best I can do is realize that I have judged, and then forgive.

I have done the angry letter thing, and sometimes it works. In the parish council-type case you described, it sounds like you could have triggered a personal rule in one or more of the other members. When I have had similar experiences, the hardest part is to put myself in the place of someone, and actually feel that person’s anger or judgement towards me in the given circumstance.

Of course you tend toward aggression. Those of us who are most judgmental and tend toward aggression have the most practice, we have to learn to forgive just to survive.

Thanks again for your insights.
 
It seems to be well known that in some circles, it is counter productive to stay mad or vengeful to an enemy. It mess’s with the outcome of the job at hand which in this case was to kill/capture OBL. I’m quite sure the soldiers that did this job didn’t let emotions get in the way. There is time before and after to work on these things. This goes for any perceived slight. First maintain and control your emotions to be able to operate correctly, be it controling your reactions in a tense traffic situation or pulling the trigger on the worlds most wanted terrorist.
 
Samson01 said:
It seems to be well known that in some circles, it is counter productive to stay mad or vengeful to an enemy. It mess’s with the outcome of the job at hand which in this case was to kill/capture OBL. I’m quite sure the soldiers that did this job didn’t let emotions get in the way. There is time before and after to work on these things. This goes for any perceived slight. First maintain and control your emotions to be able to operate correctly, be it controling your reactions in a tense traffic situation or pulling the trigger on the worlds most wanted terrorist.
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Fascinating. On the one hand, demonizing/dehumanizing (the opposite of forgiving) the enemy in the eyes of the troops is essential toward getting them to go out and do their job. OBL, for example, spent a lot of time convincing people how evil we are - our support for Israeli settlers, influence over Saudi govt, etc. etc. On the other hand, for the assassination operation cool heads are needed, so perhaps forgiveness is tactically beneficial. I would highly doubt, though, that anyone in the military,even a chaplain, would encourage forgiveness of the enemy. I would love to be proven wrong, though. Would make a very interesting discussion.
 
OneSheep said:
On the other hand, for the assassination operation cool heads are needed, so perhaps forgiveness is tactically beneficial.
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Same way with martial arts training. Anger makes you lose the battle.
I would highly doubt, though, that anyone in the military,even a chaplain, would encourage forgiveness of the enemy. I would love to be proven wrong, though. Would make a very interesting discussion.
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I would love if you were proven wrong also, but I suspect you’re right.

I think there might be a rule that it’s OK to shoot the enemy if you make the sign of the cross first. 😃

Alan
 
For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery.
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On the other hand, to endure unnecessary torment and misery is never righteous, but a perversion.  Also, the righteousness of forgiveness should never involve our condoning abuse or any other forms of evil.

True forgiveness requires our valuing peace and love above all else.  Experiencing forgiveness towards those who have wronged us resembles perfect love more so than perhaps any other human experience.  Forgiveness involves recognizing and valuing the potential for love that exists within every human soul, including our own soul.  Sins cannot be completely forgiven until we forgive, and find an inner peace with, everyone who has ever wronged us;  for every ounce of anger and resentment that we hold against any other(s), there will surely exist an ounce of sin held against us -- for harboring anger and resentment within our self is sin.

The Golden Rule states, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you!"  Our forgiving everyone, especially those we consider our enemies or adversaries, is to demonstrate to God that we are worthy of His forgiveness.  Likewise, to find love for all our enemies and adversaries is to demonstrate to God that we have suffered long enough with our hatred, and we are ready to receive His love.

Again, to experience the true power and wisdom contained within the virtue of forgiveness is to develop great spiritual growth!
 
Remember that forgiveness is an act of the will. You don’t have to feel like you’ve forgiven someone in order to actually forgive them. So if you will to forgive them, you probably already have forgiven them.
 
OneSheep said:
The challenge of the Gospel - forgive 70 times 7 times - love our enemies - do not judge - the Lord’s prayer calling us to forgive - is a call for behavior contrary to our first nature, which is to seek revenge, hate our enemy, etc. The question is, how do we forgive a guy like Osama Bin Laden?

We all know the reasons not to forgive, and people presented plenty of them on my last thread. Forgiving OBL is NOT EASY. There are many roadblocks, not the least of which is may be my own desire to beat him to a pulp, kill him, and then continue to beat him. The hate comes naturally, and perhaps immediately, but there comes a time to obey the gospel and forgive. This thread is for those who are trying to forgive, and those who have successfully forgiven.

I will throw in a few steps I have learned to take in forgiveness. They are not in any special order, but I present them in the way that I found works to forgive those I have no opportunity to meet. Others may have additional insights, and I would absolutely love to see them.
  1. First, I seek to understand why the person did what he did. I learn as much as I can about the person, how they perceive the world, who they consider their enemies and why, etc. How does the person “know not what he is doing”? Whose humanity does he not consider, and why? I know I understand when I come to the point that I can say “I could have done that if I had lived his life”. This step is not easy, but none of the steps are.
  2. Next, driving through the mess of hatred with a bulldozer of love, I pray for the person. It is a total act of blind obedience to, and appreciation of, Jesus’ words. I force myself to pray for his children, friends, and well-being. Sure, I also pray that he learn to see that his enemies are beautiful people. I pray that he learn to forgive, and seek non-violent ways of dealing with those he disagrees with, but I have learned that I have to pray for more than just his change of heart. (praying for his change of heart has more to do with step 3). In my prayer, I eventually try to visualize that I am talking with the person, sharing a beer or a meal with them.
  3. My last, but vital, step is very tricky. I have to somehow get in control of the threat or fear. This step is important for me, because all of the love and understanding I can muster will not stop my mind’s drive to deal with the threat of an enemy. If I feel more in control through prayer, praying that God will protect me (us), then that will suffice. If police action is underway, that may be enough. This step is tricky because we naturally to jump to it first (for good reason!) and seek to use aggression or other means to deal with the problem. Most of us, however, are not in the position to do this in the case of OBL. I spend time writing letters to politicians.
I know I have forgiven when I no longer condemn, nor do I seek to punish. I may continue to want protection, and that protection may even involve someone either locking up or killing the person, but I can actually empathize with, and love the person, even with all of their blindness.

Incidentally, on this September 11 I will take the time to celebrate what is much closer to home, 29 years of marriage to the most wonderful woman in the world.
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If you didn’t forgive OBL while he was alive its too late. You cannot forgive a dead person.
 
thistle said:
If you didn’t forgive OBL while he was alive its too late. You cannot forgive a dead person.
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I don’t understand. You can hold a grudge against a dead person, but you can also let go of that grudge. Isn’t forgiving and letting go of a grudge the same thing?
 
AlanFromWichita said:
I don’t understand. You can hold a grudge against a dead person, but you can also let go of that grudge. Isn’t forgiving and letting go of a grudge the same thing?
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Well I was wrong about something in another thread so its possible I’m wrong again.
I would be interested to hear from others as to whether a person has to be alive to be forgiven or is it too late once they are dead.
 
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