How do we forgive politicians?

[OneSheep]

Okay, folks, this is a fourth try at a thread on this theme.

To start with, this scripture:

New International Version, Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

So we have it established that if one holds anything against a politician, one is called to forgive. There are some who argue, “These people have not done anything to me personally, so I need not forgive.” However, Mark 11:25 does not refer to such specific instances. It stands as truth that we are called, invited, to forgive all those we hold something against, including politicians. If one holds nothing against a politician, this thread does not apply.

How do we forgive those in power who have done great wrongs? Who have anti-Christian beliefs, policies, and behaviors? Whose actions even go against secular ethics? Whose words seem disrespectful or rude? Those we hold these things against?

As instructed by the moderators, no names may be mentioned here. Please abide by this guide. (note: this thread was given an “okay” by a moderator). This is an experiment, because we are talking about forgiving people, but it is worth a try.

As far as the “how do we forgive?” part, we can refer to this important verse, Luke 23:34a

New International Version
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Jesus Understands. He knows what it means to be human, which involves lack of awareness and a capacity for blindness. Can we relate to the lack of awareness and blindness of other people? Do we share this condition at times in our lives, especially when we say or do evil? Do these words apply in an effort to understand modern politicians, who we very commonly believe “should know better”?

There is much more to be said about the “how”, but we can also try to objectively look upon what politicians do and say, and ask questions like “why would I do that?”. This is what understanding others involves.

Forgiveness is not acquittal or dropping of consequence, can we all agree on that from the start? Forgiveness does not mean withholding criticism, but it does mean criticizing without expressing condemnation of people. We are talking about forgiveness from the heart, and how to forgive politicians after some nasty campaigns. For advent, we prepare our hearts for the birth of Our Lord.

Blessings, all!

 

[Reuben_J]

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Attack his policy, forgive him as a person.

I think that is the thing probably everybody can do.

In some countries, politicians do innumerable things that hurt the people, causing injustice and more. How not to hate such people? And how to forgive? Yet we are called to love and to forgive.

We can only differentiate the things that politicians do and say, and them as human beings, the latter we need to forgive anyway.

 

[OneSheep]

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Attack his policy, forgive him as a person.

I think that is the thing probably everybody can do.

In some countries, politicians do innumerable things that hurt the people, causing injustice and more. How not to hate such people? And how to forgive? Yet we are called to love and to forgive.

We can only differentiate the things that politicians do and say, and them as human beings, the latter we need to forgive anyway.

Hi Reuben,

Well, we can try to differentiate, but we naturally judge people’s character based on their actions. In my own experience, my conscience reacts to what politicians do or say, and immediately I have a negative image of the person. It may take me awhile to actually realize that such has happened in my mind.

I have found that understanding why a person says and does what they do really helps. “Why would I do that?” “Why would I say that?”

For example, one could ask “Why would I be in favor of deporting undocumented workers?” or “Why would I favor allowing abortions to happen?”

Do you see what I mean? “Why would I say insulting things to women?” “Why would I accept money from lobbyists and return favors by supporting their cause or business?”.

Thanks for your response. I do think we can try, like I said, to differentiate. For me, such an effort is a discipline, but does not have a deeper conciliatory effect.

 

[Tim_D]

I think that you are missing the mark a bit.

 

[ClearWater]

If you truly want to forgive, one way would be to meditate on your worst failings and to realize that though Jesus was innocent, he agreed to pay not only for all your sins but for all of ours. He asked us to forgive. That was one of the few things he requested in return. We need to do as he asked to stop the cycle of hatred and unforgiveness.

 

[LiamQ]

How does one forgive anyone? By actively willing to let go of any sort of desire for control over justice, and by relying on God’s grace to know that His judgment is perfect, while ours is extremely flawed.

Someone once said that there’s a personality trait that goes around collecting injustices. This personality just loves finding ways in which they’re being short-changed in some way, all in an attempt to hold a certain power over others. It’s extremely difficult to forgive others if one is such a person, as I myself tend to be, because it’s rooted in the desire for others to owe you something.

Disagreeing with certain policy positions of politicians is fine. Being an injustice collector is not. If it bothers you that a politician is rude, ignore them. Frankly, the media just love to spread other people’s faults all over the place, like a sickness, but those faults are really none of our business.

 

[on_the_hill]

I’ll start forgiving them when they start acting like they want to be forgiven.

 

[pianistclare]

How does one forgive anyone? By actively willing to let go of any sort of desire for control over justice, and by relying on God’s grace to know that His judgment is perfect, while ours is extremely flawed.

Someone once said that there’s a personality trait that goes around collecting injustices. This personality just loves finding ways in which they’re being short-changed in some way, all in an attempt to hold a certain power over others. It’s extremely difficult to forgive others if one is such a person, as I myself tend to be, because it’s rooted in the desire for others to owe you something.

Disagreeing with certain policy positions of politicians is fine. Being an injustice collector is not. If it bothers you that a politician is rude, ignore them. Frankly, the media just love to spread other people’s faults all over the place, like a sickness, but those faults are really none of our business.

yup.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben,

Well, we can try to differentiate, but we naturally judge people’s character based on their actions. In my own experience, my conscience reacts to what politicians do or say, and immediately I have a negative image of the person. It may take me awhile to actually realize that such has happened in my mind.

I have found that understanding why a person says and does what they do really helps. “Why would I do that?” “Why would I say that?”

For example, one could ask “Why would I be in favor of deporting undocumented workers?” or “Why would I favor allowing abortions to happen?”

Do you see what I mean? “Why would I say insulting things to women?” “Why would I accept money from lobbyists and return favors by supporting their cause or business?”.

Thanks for your response. I do think we can try, like I said, to differentiate. For me, such an effort is a discipline, but does not have a deeper conciliatory effect.

I can understand what you’re trying to say. It’s a good start in forgiveness but that’s not how God wants us to forgive. As humans we can forgive if there is good reason for it or if there’s justification, thus in trying to understand a person’s background.

God’s standard in forgiveness is higher though as also is His love. He loves unconditionally and thus asks us to forgive indefinitely - forgive seven time seventy seven times.

We may run out of excuses to forgive and then, what? God says to forgive still.

Actually I do not have an answer of how to forgive, be it to politicians or anybody else. The suggestion to differentiate what they say/do and their person as humans perhaps just a tool to be more pragmatic to see clearer how God wants it to be.

Besides, as Christians it does not mean that we should be inactive but we can also play a part in trying to shape the society according to our Christian value. The question of course, is how far do we go from there?

As children of the light, our action is limited to the righteous things only and that in itself can pose problem for us who have our own limitation. We can only depend on God through prayers, faith and devotion.

 

[OneSheep]

I think that you are missing the mark a bit.

I agree, Tim, but this is an experiment. The original thread I posted actually mentioned the names of two politicians, and I think that thread would have been more appropriate because we are called to forgive actual people we hold something against, and there are a great many people who hold something against certain political figures.

When I showed the original thread to a local priest, he thought it was a great topic and invited me to present the topic with him at his parish. I will try to steer conversation in the direction of understanding people on this thread.

 

[OneSheep]

If you truly want to forgive, one way would be to meditate on your worst failings and to realize that though Jesus was innocent, he agreed to pay not only for all your sins but for all of ours. He asked us to forgive. That was one of the few things he requested in return. We need to do as he asked to stop the cycle of hatred and unforgiveness.

Yes, we stop the cycle by forgiving anyone we hold anything against.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Liam,

How does one forgive anyone? By actively willing to let go of any sort of desire for control over justice, and by relying on God’s grace to know that His judgment is perfect, while ours is extremely flawed.

Yes, our judgement is flawed, but we have little control over the reactions that occur in our minds. We hear something atrocious, and our healthy conscience judges. Judgement has its place in guiding our own behaviors.

Do you find the practice of understanding people also helpful with forgiveness?

Someone once said that there’s a personality trait that goes around collecting injustices. This personality just loves finding ways in which they’re being short-changed in some way, all in an attempt to hold a certain power over others. It’s extremely difficult to forgive others if one is such a person, as I myself tend to be, because it’s rooted in the desire for others to owe you something.

We have to be really wary of what “someone once said”.

We react to injustices, it is a natural activity of the conscience. We judge. We think someone owes us or society, other are perceived to incur debts. In addition, we all want power, to dominate. All these are very natural in all of us, and in some other species BTW.

Have you found that understanding people helps?

Disagreeing with certain policy positions of politicians is fine. Being an injustice collector is not. If it bothers you that a politician is rude, ignore them. Frankly, the media just love to spread other people’s faults all over the place, like a sickness, but those faults are really none of our business.

So, have you found that ignoring people makes grudges go away? I have not found this.

Yes, the media does love to spread people’s faults, but often faults concerning politicians truly are our business in order to make educated choices about character and policy. Yes, the media over does things, and yes, we can rule out rumors and “fake news”.

Does saying “that is none of my business” rectify the “holding against”? I’m not saying that it can’t work, but for me ignoring hard feelings does not address the effect of resentment.

And for you, Liam? Do you hold anything against any politicians, or has saying “those faults are none of my business” erased all resentment?

 

[OneSheep]

I’ll start forgiving them when they start acting like they want to be forgiven.

Well, if this was the standard way we forgive, we could hold a grudge our entire lives.

I want to thank you though, for adding your note. It has become quite obvious to me that the topic has hit a nerve, and those that reject the topic altogether are setting the agenda on the forum.

A priest once told me “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand”. What do you think?

 

[on_the_hill]

Well, if this was the standard way we forgive, we could hold a grudge our entire lives.

I want to thank you though, for adding your note. It has become quite obvious to me that the topic has hit a nerve, and those that reject the topic altogether are setting the agenda on the forum.

A priest once told me “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand”. What do you think?

Well, isn’t there supposed to be some level of contrition to precede forgiveness? Jesus forgave tax collectors and prostitutes, but they met him halfway.

I have a friend whose brother was murdered in a foreign country. There was never any real attempt at finding the bad guys. He said, “People want me to forgive them, but how can I forgive them if I don’t even know who “they” are?”

I’ll add: I don’t hold grudges. I am someone who forgives too easily and people take advantage of that sometimes. However, it’s hard to forgive, especially politicians, people who keep on doing bad stuff without any atttempt at reform or reconciliation. The bar is higher for them.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello

Well, isn’t there supposed to be some level of contrition to precede forgiveness? Jesus forgave tax collectors and prostitutes, but they met him halfway.

They did, but Jesus did not say, “God forgives you if…” in a withholding way. Repentance on the part of sinners is an essential part of reconciliation and holiness, but as you might remember Jesus forgave from the cross a crowd who were not repentant. Forgiveness is a step toward reconciliation, but reconciliation involves relationship, prayer is essential.

It is a lot easier to forgive someone who repents and shows contrition, right?

I have a friend whose brother was murdered in a foreign country. There was never any real attempt at finding the bad guys. He said, “People want me to forgive them, but how can I forgive them if I don’t even know who “they” are?”

Well, he had a good point, which is one reason why this thread is difficult without names. However, if he knows some of the circumstances he can try to piece together all of the possible motives and pray, understand, and forgive all the possible scenarios. The short answer is “they did not know what they were doing”. Your friend’s brother was murdered by people who were blind or ignorant. Often we need more detail than that, though. Again, praying for the perpetrators is tough, but an essential part in my experience.

Perhaps, too, he was not ready to forgive. We have to be patient with ourselves, regardless of the pressures around us. This thread is meant to be “no pressure”. Forgiveness of politicians is an invitation.

I’ll add: I don’t hold grudges. I am someone who forgives too easily and people take advantage of that sometimes. However, it’s hard to forgive, especially politicians, people who keep on doing bad stuff without any atttempt at reform or reconciliation. The bar is higher for them.

Yeah, I get that too. When a person does/says bad stuff and is not sorry about it, then there becomes two things to forgive: the original act, and the refusal to repent. For me, there may be several things that I react to at once from a person. For example, when I saw a taped confession by a mass murderer a couple years ago, there were several resentment “buttons” triggered at once in me. It took a lot of reflection and prayer (for the person, and for understanding) to work through it all.

Is there one thing they do that is particularly difficult to relate to?

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Reuben,

I can understand what you’re trying to say. It’s a good start in forgiveness but that’s not how God wants us to forgive. As humans we can forgive if there is good reason for it or if there’s justification, thus in trying to understand a person’s background.

I’m a little confused there. Yes, when we try to understand a person’s mindset when he says or does something, such understanding can help us to forgive, just as Jesus did from the cross. In addition Saul, for example, also was able to forgive himself for persecuting Christians because he understood that he was ignorant.

I try to stay away from words like “justification” when it comes to understanding, it sounds too much like condoning. We can understand why someone justifies their actions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that their actions are just in a way that involves awareness of love, value, compassion, etc. (God’s will). I’m not being contrary, only trying to clarify, to see if we are on the “same page”.

God’s standard in forgiveness is higher though as also is His love. He loves unconditionally and thus asks us to forgive indefinitely - forgive seven time seventy seven times.

We may run out of excuses to forgive and then, what? God says to forgive still.

I dunno. The word “standard” sounds a little coercive maybe. A call to forgive is an invitation to holiness. Now, I’m not putting down a little “light coercion”, because even forced effort to forgive can be rewarding, and may inspire the person to do more. Hopefully the coercive image of God changes as the person forgives others.

Yes, forgive when we run out of excuses, and even before we run out! I love the 70x7 verse.

Actually I do not have an answer of how to forgive, be it to politicians or anybody else. The suggestion to differentiate what they say/do and their person as humans perhaps just a tool to be more pragmatic to see clearer how God wants it to be.

Well, I think you agree that prayer is first and foremost. But would you like to work on an example? Pick one, if you like, or come up with another that is especially bothersome:

a. A politician supports legislation and laws that allow abortion.
b. A politician is a pawn of the banking industry
c. A politician says demeaning things about a gender or minorities.

Besides, as Christians it does not mean that we should be inactive but we can also play a part in trying to shape the society according to our Christian value. The question of course, is how far do we go from there?

As children of the light, our action is limited to the righteous things only and that in itself can pose problem for us who have our own limitation. We can only depend on God through prayers, faith and devotion.

Well, the call is to be active, and how active we are depends on our own specific calling. To me, though, all activism best begins with forgiveness. I like verses from songs like “let peace begin with me” or Michael Jackson’s:

If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change

 

[on_the_hill]

Well, he had a good point, which is one reason why this thread is difficult without names. However, if he knows some of the circumstances he can try to piece together all of the possible motives and pray, understand, and forgive all the possible scenarios. The short answer is “they did not know what they were doing”. Your friend’s brother was murdered by people who were blind or ignorant.

I can get a little more specific: He was an American aid worker in Afghanistan, traveling with an eye doctor who went from village to village to treat people with eye problems. They were stopped by militants and shot. It’s assumed the Taliban did it but none of us will ever know. Could’ve been an unknown group from Pakistan.

Which makes your comment about them being “blind” somewhat ironic.

 

[simpleas]

Realise we can not control everyone.

Concentrate on good deeds, giving and receiving love.

Let anger happen, because it will. (although do not act on the anger)

Realise people will abuse power, but do not let it affect your will to do that which is right.

 

[OneSheep]

Realise we can not control everyone.

Concentrate on good deeds, giving and receiving love.

Let anger happen, because it will. (although do not act on the anger)

Realise people will abuse power, but do not let it affect your will to do that which is right.

This is all great stuff, simpleas. To me, if prayer is step 1 in the process of forgiving politicians (or anyone else), that prayer in cases of ongoing abuse or injustice should take the form of getting in control in some way! It may mean taking action.

And yes, sometimes “getting in control” involves the serenity prayer, realizing our limitations, getting in control of the desire to be in control itself! (By letting go )

Sometimes, our “will to do that which is right” is to do all we can to…guess what… be in control. Which brings us back to prayer, an ultimate source of power and spiritual resource.

So, in all cases of ongoing triggered resentment from a politician, action is necessary, something that gives us a feeling of being in control in some way.

thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

I can get a little more specific: He was an American aid worker in Afghanistan, traveling with an eye doctor who went from village to village to treat people with eye problems. They were stopped by militants and shot. It’s assumed the Taliban did it but none of us will ever know. Could’ve been an unknown group from Pakistan.

Which makes your comment about them being “blind” somewhat ironic.

I think it’s a fair bet that the people who murdered him were radically anti-American and trusted no one who seemed to be from the west.

Going back to the understanding of others, we can ask ourselves "why would I kill a foreigner in our land? For me, it is painful to do so, but I can admit that I am capable of hatred (in this case, the foreign use of drones to kill brethren in my homeland could certainly trigger such hatred). Add on top of that the blindness one gets when badly wanting something (i.e. that foreigner’s vehicle) and the common devaluation of life itself in that forsaken, desensitized populace, I can easily relate to the people who do such seemingly senseless execution.

Those that killed the pair from the NGO did not know what they were doing, they did not think twice about destroying something they thought had no more value than a pair of mosquitoes.

Yes, they should have known better. They did not.