How do we forgive those who beheaded the Egyptian Coptic Christians?

[OneSheep]

I begin this post with a prayer, for I know that this topic will be very offensive to some people.

Abba, Father,

Help me to love my enemies. Help me to pray for those who persecute us. Help me to forgive. And I ask, Father, that you be with those who are most directly affected by the killings. Bless them, bring them your peace, and comfort those lives that remain in sorrow and despair.

Help them to know, Abba, that the world empathizes for them and with them, and that with such empathy we share their offense, their resentment, their hatred, toward the ones who carried out those horrific acts.

Help the victim friends and family also to know, Abba, that in our endeavor to forgive those that did the beheadings, those that we hold something against, we are by no means intending to offend or belittle their own hurt, nor are we desiring to excuse the killers or diminish the need for justice. Instead, we intend to let go of our own resentment, to reconcile with one another and with you, Lord, to forgive as you ask us to forgive, from the heart. Help us to see that our holding grudges only serves to enslave us and diminish our ability to freely love everyone.

In forgiving our enemies, may the world know how to bring about peace, that true peace is not brought about through retribution, but through reconciliation. May that reconciliation begin with every single one of us.

Amen.

This thread is for the (name removed by moderator)ut of those who have worked through the process of forgiveness, and have come to reconciliation, those who have followed or are trying to follow these words:

Mark 11:25
New International Version
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

How do we forgive?

Thank you, up front, for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Robert_Sock]

For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery.

On the other hand, to endure unnecessary torment and misery is never righteous, but a perversion. Also, the righteousness of forgiveness should never involve our condoning abuse or any other forms of evil.

True forgiveness requires our valuing peace and love above all else. Experiencing forgiveness towards those who have wronged us resembles perfect love more so than perhaps any other human experience. Forgiveness involves recognizing and valuing the potential for love that exists within every human soul, including our own soul. Sins cannot be completely forgiven until we forgive, and find an inner peace with, everyone who has ever wronged us; for every ounce of anger and resentment that we hold against any other(s), there will surely exist an ounce of sin held against us – for harboring anger and resentment within our self is sin.

The Golden Rule states: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you!” Our forgiving everyone, especially those we consider our enemies or adversaries, is to demonstrate to God that we are worthy of His forgiveness. Likewise, to find love for all our enemies and adversaries is to demonstrate to God that we have suffered long enough with our anger and resentment, and we are ready to receive His love.

Again, to experience the true power and wisdom contained within the virtue of forgiveness is to develop great spiritual growth!

 

[OneSheep]

For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery.

On the other hand, to endure unnecessary torment and misery is never righteous, but a perversion. Also, the righteousness of forgiveness should never involve our condoning abuse or any other forms of evil.

True forgiveness requires our valuing peace and love above all else. Experiencing forgiveness towards those who have wronged us resembles perfect love more so than perhaps any other human experience. Forgiveness involves recognizing and valuing the potential for love that exists within every human soul, including our own soul. Sins cannot be completely forgiven until we forgive, and find an inner peace with, everyone who has ever wronged us; for every ounce of anger and resentment that we hold against any other(s), there will surely exist an ounce of sin held against us – for harboring anger and resentment within our self is sin.

The Golden Rule states: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you!” Our forgiving everyone, especially those we consider our enemies or adversaries, is to demonstrate to God that we are worthy of His forgiveness. Likewise, to find love for all our enemies and adversaries is to demonstrate to God that we have suffered long enough with our anger and resentment, and we are ready to receive His love.

Again, to experience the true power and wisdom contained within the virtue of forgiveness is to develop great spiritual growth!

Thank you, Robert Sock.

So, the question is, how do we go about it?

The words “spiritual maturity” in your post are significant, for when we are children we can simply “not hate anymore” and it works! It takes a person with a mature conscience (sense of right and wrong, with a strong empathy for victims, and a natural desire for justice) to hold a strong grudge.

Let us see what others have to offer…

 

[St_Francis]

I think…

*There but for the grace of God go I. *

And (this one is the kicker!):

*Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. *

 

[OneSheep]

I think…

*There but for the grace of God go I. *

And (this one is the kicker!):

*Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. *

Yes, these are excellent to bring into the thread.

Those that did the beheadings were blind. They clearly did not know what they were doing. Such understanding of blindness goes a long way in the process of forgiveness, as does prayer.

Jesus wraps the two in one in a single line. He prays for forgiveness, and in doing so he shows His understanding, that those who do evil do not know what they are doing.

Thanks, those verses help a lot!

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I hope this will not be taken in the wrong way, but I have felt that some people who do evil, know exactly what they do. Some are ignorant like the Roman soldiers but what about Pilate and the High Priests, how about Judas?

 

[Coco82]

I hope this will not be taken in the wrong way, but I have felt that some people who do evil, know exactly what they do. Some are ignorant like the Roman soldiers but what about Pilate and the High Priests, how about Judas?

First let me say this is a good, albeit difficult topic to discuss due to events currently happening.

I have to agree with the above though. I believe evil exists in the world and those who commit it like ISIS, al-Qaeda, etc. know exactly what they are doing and it is more related to radical Islamism than ignorance of action. Add Middle Eastern power politics to the equation and you have an awful mix. I don’t know how you forgive that kind of evil, but do know it takes a very profound person to do it, spiritually mature as it were.

 

[KD8TZC]

Thank you, Robert Sock.

So, the question is, how do we go about it?

The words “spiritual maturity” in your post are significant, for when we are children we can simply “not hate anymore” and it works! It takes a person with a mature conscience (sense of right and wrong, with a strong empathy for victims, and a natural desire for justice) to hold a strong grudge.

Let us see what others have to offer…

Pray for the desire and willingness to forgive. If you just have the desire to forgive, even if you can’t forgive them, God can work with that in you. It may be a long process, but thorough God, it will happen.

PAX,

John

 

[CathConvert602]

I agree that there is evil in this world, and there are plenty who choose to do evil. I know that they choose to do it because we have free will. However, they choose to do things that are evil because they rationalize it into being “good for their cause”, “my right” or “it doesn’t hurt anyone”; suicide bombers, mothers who abort, or porn watchers, for example.

No doubt, they do things that God has forbidden but they choose it out of the “blindness” of rationalization. To them, that are blind, these actions are just what they need to do to survive; they don’t see it as evil because they’ve rationalized it into being a neutral if not righteous act.

So, as our Lord said, “They know not what they do.” for if they did, they surely wouldn’t have done it.

I hope that made sense, I’m on lunch and can’t really get into it too deeply. I can elaborate if you’d like.

 

[Ridgerunner]

First let me say this is a good, albeit difficult topic to discuss due to events currently happening.

I have to agree with the above though. I believe evil exists in the world and those who commit it like ISIS, al-Qaeda, etc. know exactly what they are doing and it is more related to radical Islamism than ignorance of action. Add Middle Eastern power politics to the equation and you have an awful mix. I don’t know how you forgive that kind of evil, but do know it takes a very profound person to do it, spiritually mature as it were.

Of course people know what they are doing, and, for the most part, they know when it’s evil. If that was not the case, there would be no such thing as sin and no need for Jesus to have ever suffered His passion or died on the cross.

One thing that’s missing in these discussions about forgiving ISIS or Tsarnaev or whoever, is the lack of a proper notion of what is meant by “forgiveness”. Some emotional reaction? Perhaps not demanding justice and, if possible, prevention? Is it making excuses for evil?

 

[7_Sorrows]

I agree that there is evil in this world, and there are plenty who choose to do evil. I know that they choose to do it because we have free will. However, they choose to do things that are evil because they rationalize it into being “good for their cause”, “my right” or “it doesn’t hurt anyone”; suicide bombers, mothers who abort, or porn watchers, for example.

No doubt, they do things that God has forbidden but they choose it out of the “blindness” of rationalization. To them, that are blind, these actions are just what they need to do to survive; they don’t see it as evil because they’ve rationalized it into being a neutral if not righteous act.

So, as our Lord said, “They know not what they do.” for if they did, they surely wouldn’t have done it.

I hope that made sense, I’m on lunch and can’t really get into it too deeply. I can elaborate if you’d like.

I agree that they rationalize their evil which does not make it less sinful.
We now have the added murders of the Ethiopian Christians which are shown in an ISIS video to be shot and beheaded. Another atrocity.
When I read this story I wanted revenge then I realized that was not Christian of me, but there is a part of me that does not want to forgive because I don’t know if any of these men doing the killings feel any remorse at all.

 

[Bookcat]

Grace and will. One loves ones enemies - and prays for those who persecute --as our Master taught us.

And as did the early martyrs: earlychristians.org/index.php/acts

 

[crenfro]

Hello.

You make a good point here. Thank you.

One thing that’s missing in these discussions about forgiving ISIS or Tsarnaev or whoever, is the lack of a proper notion of what is meant by “forgiveness”. Some emotional reaction? Perhaps not demanding justice and, if possible, prevention? Is it making excuses for evil?

 

[TemperanceOfGod]

Of course people know what they are doing, and, for the most part, they know when it’s evil. If that was not the case, there would be no such thing as sin and no need for Jesus to have ever suffered His passion or died on the cross.

One thing that’s missing in these discussions about forgiving ISIS or Tsarnaev or whoever, is the lack of a proper notion of what is meant by “forgiveness”. Some emotional reaction? Perhaps not demanding justice and, if possible, prevention? Is it making excuses for evil?

I think learning what forgiveness is, is the first step to help us. There should never be an excuse for evil.

Some people are on a evil-driven-lust-fest. We pray for this to stop, yet it doesn’t. All I can think to do is send troops in to stop them. Yet, is an eye for an eye still valid or did Jesus teach us to let the evil happen? Sending in troops isn’t forgiving them so I guess I’m in sin?

I really don’t know how to forgive them.

 

[Blue_Goose]

I think…

*There but for the grace of God go I. *

And (this one is the kicker!):

*Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. *

I strongly disagree. Those that murdered the Coptic Christians believe they are doing the will of their ‘Allah’. It is their reality.They know exactly what they are doing, and they are rejoicing in it. As long as they are not confronted and defeated they will continue murdering Christians; first in the Middle East, then across Europe, and finally the United States.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think learning what forgiveness is, is the first step to help us. There should never be an excuse for evil.

Some people are on a evil-driven-lust-fest. We pray for this to stop, yet it doesn’t. All I can think to do is send troops in to stop them. Yet, is an eye for an eye still valid or did Jesus teach us to let the evil happen? Sending in troops isn’t forgiving them so I guess I’m in sin?

I really don’t know how to forgive them.

Preventing an evil from continuing is not sinful.

 

[Coco82]

I strongly disagree. Those that murdered the Coptic Christians believe they are doing the will of their ‘Allah’. It is their reality.They know exactly what they are doing, and they are rejoicing in it. As long as they are not confronted and defeated they will continue murdering Christians; first in the Middle East, then across Europe, and finally the United States.

I agree. They see this as right to their cause. You can say they rationalize in a way, but I think it goes beyond rationalization with these people because they know what they’re doing and what the effects will be. Raymond Ibrahim writes a lot about this on his website. He’s a Copt whose written on how Islamists seek to subjugate Christians in the region. I highly recommend it.

 

[OneSheep]

Pray for the desire and willingness to forgive. If you just have the desire to forgive, even if you can’t forgive them, God can work with that in you. It may be a long process, but thorough God, it will happen.

PAX,

John

John,

I continue to appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, your suggestions. I love the patience in your voice when you say “long process”, and your faith in the power that comes from the simple, honest desire to forgive. There is something very pure in you, John.

Thank you so much, it is great to have you on the CAF!

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I agree that there is evil in this world, and there are plenty who choose to do evil. I know that they choose to do it because we have free will. However, they choose to do things that are evil because they rationalize it into being “good for their cause”, “my right” or “it doesn’t hurt anyone”; suicide bombers, mothers who abort, or porn watchers, for example.

No doubt, they do things that God has forbidden but they choose it out of the “blindness” of rationalization. To them, that are blind, these actions are just what they need to do to survive; they don’t see it as evil because they’ve rationalized it into being a neutral if not righteous act.

I think the front line people, called “useful idiots” by Lenin or the Roman soldiers, truly do not know what they do. But higher up, they know what they are doing. If forgiveness were a blank check for everyone, there would be no hell.

 

[CathConvert602]

I think the front line people, called “useful idiots” by Lenin or the Roman soldiers, truly do not know what they do. But higher up, they know what they are doing. If forgiveness were a blank check for everyone, there would be no hell.

I am not saying that their actions are at all to be tolerated, at any level. What I’m saying is that they act out of the belief that they are correct and do not see what they are doing as intrinsically evil. They have rationalised it somehow, and that’s true from the thug on the street to the head of the organization. They are blind not because they don’t know that what they’re doing is harming another, but because they rationalized that it is an acceptable cost to move their agenda.

And it’s the same across the board. God gives us all free will, and we have to choose His way or our way; the very worst form of idolatry is when we choose “our way”. This is true from the child that chooses to toss his note from teacher to the creep that’s stalking that same boy from the indescript car. From the corrupt businessman to the drug cartel leader. When you choose you over God, you will suffer the consequences. When others choose themselves over God, you too may suffer the consequences.

God’s Mercy is infinite and is there for the asking, but if you have purposely blinded yourself then you won’t ask for it, however that doesn’t mean others can’t plead for mercy on your behalf.

So after all that, the thing I’m trying to say is that rationalizations are the blinders people put on to justify evil actions from venial to mortal. That doesn’t excuse them, it just makes it so they can sleep at night.