How do we identify a Reprobate among us.?

[Michael_Francis]

This thread has been pruned. Please take note of the following Banned Topic. Banned Topic: Discussion of Political Candidates
MF

 

[rwoehmke]

For instance is he one more likely to take the penitential attitude of imperfect contrition? Would he more likely love or fear God? Or take on careers of a evil nature.? Anti social,etc.
Would he walk through this world bearing externally in some way manifesting the stigma.?
Or the complete opposite. Could he be a striver of rightousness and determined in his resolve, a devout person, kind in every way, an emulator of Christ? AndyF

Must be an insulting term. My now dead FIL used to “go through the roof” when anyone referred to his as a “drunken Irish reprobate.”

Must first inclination was to say we do it by looking in a miror.

 

[AndyF]

AndyF,
(I’m sorry if some of this letter sounds too critical; I’m just saying what I think, maybe a little too forcefully!)

Not at all. It’s comforting to find someone who can speak collectedly and control their emotions.

Yes, I DO know that predestination is real, but it is in GOD’s hands. It is not only an “abstract idea for us limited human belings” it is God’s MYSTERY. The Catholic Encyclopedia article you referenced says this:

Of course it’s in God’s hands, just as it would be if we lived in 14 century England and we were in the Kings hands. Are we not due sensitivity and consideration for our feelings from that human king? If you hear second hand news about you that potentially puts you in jeopardy, is your alarm unreasonable? Are we simply viewed as objects? And why is justice to our bretheren hidden anyway.?

In order to emphasize how mysterious and unapproachable is Divine election, the Council of Trent calls predestination “hidden mystery”.

*As an issue of justice, in my pious opinion, doesn’t seem reasonable. Closed Justice in control of any being should not be a part of the Deposit of the Faith, and it should be open to all as an inalienable right of all beings.
An open system does not take away in one iota justice to both parties, but opens in wonderment to the universe what it claims to be. You will note the government does not close off the Judicial Process only to those who are now being judged and the worthy, but it opens it to inspection. If we imperfect bound beings see fit to reveal it, how much more worthy a system could it prove to be for a perfect system.

I can understand divine law and what is due God, and what is due man and society, but if the Holy Spirit through it’s contract of binding in heaven what is on earth carries any substance, an open system bound on earth and bound in heaven could be implemented.

It seems to me that you are trying to approach the unapproachable, and “fathom the depths of the eternal counsel”

Actually this statement is wrong. Not all is mystery, and I can find scriptural proof that states human reasoning is sufficient in some cases. Besides, why would you deny anyone a spiritual process that all have taken.? That journey will unfold for you and for me regardless. If Faith matures(Cor) then it is inevitable there will be doors that can’t be opened, room contexts that are not understood, and questions that can and can be answered according to one’s disposition. But if the table were turned, I could not say that you are forbidden to try because of one obstacle.

Calvinism was one heresy that came about because men were delving too deep into God’s mystery. As if they could understand!

I understood it differently. I read he tried to apply and promulgate what he learned in acceptance of it. Reading and questioning does nothing, true heresy requires work; submission of one’s heart, and the offense must be consummated, i.e. complete and perfected in its kind in genere suo. Included also, there are De Fide theological opinions that may not be well founded, and are by consensus part of the Deposit of the Faith, and the lay community is granted liberal Pious Opinions.

However, assigning the label is just as dangerous ground.

“looking for reprobates” isn’t a part of what they teach.

and your summation explains the direction of your post. “Identify” and “look for” don’t have the same meaning, no more than it would for a grade school child who asks, “how can we tell what devils look like.” is an indicator of seeking out demons, and your answer would have to be that Calvin met his fate by the same process.

Thanks for the post.

AndyF

 

[Teflon93]

If you can manage to focus objectively on the topic I’ll answer you. An easy way to do that is to assume a third party as subject.

Much more constructive ground can be covered.

Besides, no one’s interested in you trying to save our souls.

AndyF

Actually, God is QUITE interested in us making that attempt.

 

[AndyF]

Actually, God is QUITE interested in us making that attempt.

So you are qualified to do that?

AndyF

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here’s more food for thought.

If he also foresaw the demon’s fall and rejection, why didn’t he reprobate them when they were created as angels.? This fact also means there were the elect and reprobate among angels.

The NT does refer to “the elect angels”:​

• I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. (1Tim. 5:21)
  If he doesn’t need to apply the stigma in one case, why keep it for man?

Could it be he had to overlook the fact in order to satisfy close proximity tasks for them.? God is not under any contraint, but does all things as He pleases

Please, keep the Ad Hominems low key. If it will work, I’m unsavable, how’s that?.

AndyF

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The NT does refer to “the elect angels”:​

• I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. (1Tim. 5:21)

If he doesn’t need to apply the stigma in one case, why keep it for man?

Could it be he had to overlook the fact in order to satisfy close proximity tasks for them.? God is not under any contraint, but does all things as He pleases

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I have this horrible sinking feeling that it’s me.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Not at all. It’s comforting to find someone who can speak collectedly and control their emotions.

Of course it’s in God’s hands, just as it would be if we lived in 14 century England and we were in the Kings hands. Are we not due sensitivity and consideration for our feelings from that human king? If you hear second hand news about you that potentially puts you in jeopardy, is your alarm unreasonable? Are we simply viewed as objects? And why is justice to our bretheren hidden anyway.?

But - though a human king is somewhat like God, God is not like any human king; or any other of His creatures. All His ways are by definition utterly good: so whatever He wills is necessarily good, holy, true & just. Injustice is impossible to God - only sinners (= us) can be unjust.​

There is no comparison between God & men, none whatever. God is incapable of evil or iniquity - unlike us.

As an issue of justice, in my pious opinion, doesn’t seem reasonable. Closed Justice in control of any being should not be a part of the Deposit of the Faith, and it should be open to all as an inalienable right of all beings.

We have rights only from God - He owes us nothing whatever, salvation least of all. No such thing can possibly exist as a creature which has rights independent of God - their foundation is His gracious good will & pleasure, not our existence; for that itself is dependent on His good will & pleasure. So we cannot appeal from Him.​

An open system does not take away in one iota justice to both parties, but opens in wonderment to the universe what it claims to be. You will note the government does not close off the Judicial Process only to those who are now being judged and the worthy, but it opens it to inspection. If we imperfect bound beings see fit to reveal it, how much more worthy a system could it prove to be for a perfect system.

I can understand divine law and what is due God, and what is due man and society, but if the Holy Spirit through it’s contract of binding in heaven what is on earth carries any substance, an open system bound on earth and bound in heaven could be implemented.

Actually this statement is wrong. Not all is mystery, and I can find scriptural proof that states human reasoning is sufficient in some cases. Besides, why would you deny anyone a spiritual process that all have taken.? That journey will unfold for you and for me regardless. If Faith matures(Cor) then it is inevitable there will be doors that can’t be opened, room contexts that are not understood, and questions that can and can be answered according to one’s disposition. But if the table were turned, I could not say that you are forbidden to try because of one obstacle.

I understood it differently. I read he tried to apply and promulgate what he learned in acceptance of it. Reading and questioning does nothing, true heresy requires work; submission of one’s heart, and the offense must be consummated, i.e. complete and perfected in its kind in genere suo. Included also, there are De Fide theological opinions that may not be well founded, and are by consensus part of the Deposit of the Faith, and the lay community is granted liberal Pious Opinions.

However, assigning the label is just as dangerous ground.

and your summation explains the direction of your post. “Identify” and “look for” don’t have the same meaning, no more than it would for a grade school child who asks, “how can we tell what devils look like.” is an indicator of seeking out demons, and your answer would have to be that Calvin met his fate by the same process.

Thanks for the post.

AndyF

 

[Teflon93]

So you are qualified to do that?

AndyF

Yes. I am a Christian; all Christians are called to help our brothers and sisters home.

The question is therefore not one of qualification, but one of calling.

None but Catholics having valid holy orders, one must be priest or bishop to lead the flock.

The rest of us are not shepherds, but sheep dogs.

 

[AndyF]

God is not like any human king; or any other of His creatures.

I understood it differently. our Father IS like our human King, and exactly like a human creature, as Fathers can only beget but sons and daughters. And a human King can beget offspring created in his image.

He can be approached in discussion and opinionated just like a Father. Nothing held in reserve or conservation with no fear of the effects of conflict of interest(what would it give us…).

So yeah, I don’t agree with this precept, But, I can also say,“Hey, foget abowt it.”

AndyF