How do we know Islam is false?

[fireproofpoodle]

Dear friends;

I have recently stumbled across some Muslim arguments as to why Jesus cannot be God and as to why Islam is the correct religion. Although most of the arguments constituted a gross and obvious misunderstanding of the Bible and was not convincing in the least, I feel obliged to ask some questions.

So, here it is: Citing any evidence apart from the Bible (in the spirit of fairness, as Muslims somehow think the Bible is corrupt), how do we know that Islam is false?

P.S. I am not even considering becoming muslim, as I believe the Holy Bible to be the uncorrupted word of God, and therefore I am not having a “crisis of faith”.

Any answers appreciated.

God bless.

 

[mark_a]

Dear friends;

I have recently stumbled across some Muslim arguments as to why Jesus cannot be God and as to why Islam is the correct religion. Although most of the arguments constituted a gross and obvious misunderstanding of the Bible and was not convincing in the least, I feel obliged to ask some questions.

So, here it is: Citing any evidence apart from the Bible (in the spirit of fairness, as Muslims somehow think the Bible is corrupt), how do we know that Islam is false?

P.S. I am not even considering becoming muslim, as I believe the Holy Bible to be the uncorrupted word of God, and therefore I am not having a “crisis of faith”.

Any answers appreciated.

God bless.

For that matter, how do we know that Mormonism is false? Both Joseph Smith and Muhammed claim some sort of corruption or apostacy of the Church.

I would start by comparing the founder of Islam (Muhammed) with the founder of Christianity, Jesus.

 

[tjm190]

When the founder of your religion married a 9 year old, you know you’re in the wrong place.

 

[fireproofpoodle]

When the founder of your religion married a 9 year old, you know you’re in the wrong place.

Actually, she was 6. They consumated their marriage at age nine. You are right, Muhammad’s lifestyle is hardly the type one would expect of a prophet. As someone who seeks the truth about God (and has found it in the Church) one feels compelled to explore every possibility.

 

[Michael1985]

There are serious historical problems,
In 20:85 it talks about Samaritians being with Moses at the incident with the golden calf, Samaritians didn’t exist until 800 years later.

There’s nothing like that in the bible, there are several other historical errors like that.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

From my somewhat poorly informed persepctive, it seems to be that, in Islam, God is master, rather than Father. To the Christian, God is Love itself.

 

[LBSDBS]

When the founder of your religion married a 9 year old, you know you’re in the wrong place.

Then Catholicism is in serious trouble too. Joseph married Mary when she was a preteen, or that’s at least what researchers believe. Why? Because in those days, it was the norm.

For that matter, how do we know that Mormonism is false? Both Joseph Smith and Muhammed claim some sort of corruption or apostacy of the Church.

I would start by comparing the founder of Islam (Muhammed) with the founder of Christianity, Jesus.

Actually, that’s where it gets tricky. First, many people, including many Christians, believe Jesus to be a prophet, not God. Furthermore, there is nothing in the bible that I have been able to find that CLEARLY establishes that Jesus IS God. Many of the lines people take as associating Jesus as God sound more like he’s being metaphoric then many other parts of scripture that are commonly established by everyone as metaphoric. Furthermore, I don’t recall any of the prophets saying that he’d be God in human form. To top things off, one of his most famous lines is spoken in establishment that Jesus and God are, to some extent, two different minds: “Father, let not my will be done but yours.”

What it all boils down to is the assumption that Jesus is God is only an assumption. True? Maybe, but there is no clear answer to that question. At least not that I have been able to find.

If Jesus WAS a prophet, then why can’t there be more prophets and an even stronger point, assuming Jesus IS God, since when does his appearance on earth put a stop to the future births of more prophets? Both Islam and Mormonism make a valid point. There WAS Church corruption and need for reformation. Whether or not their idea of answering the problem was at all valid or a good idea is a different story.

The means for identifying prophets is made absolutely clear in the old testament. It is not in whether or not they married a kid or found some tablets that no one but themselves have seen (try getting the Jews to furnish the original 10 commandments. They must not contradict the prophets of the past and they must repeatedly foretell the future with 100% accuracy. Contradicting prophets of the past can be a tricky one, so the first and possibly most clear way to attempt to impeach them is to look at prophecy. If Joseph Smith or the Prophet Mohammad ever once foretold the future as it were a message from God and that future failed to come to pass, then you can write them and their religion off as invalid.

 

[Pons]

Then Catholicism is in serious trouble too. Joseph married Mary when she was a preteen, or that’s at least what researchers believe. Why? Because in those days, it was the norm.

I was taught she was most probably a teenager, which even at 13 is a lot different from 6. Others can respond to the rest of your post better than I.

 

[LBSDBS]

The general opinion of historians is that she was somewhere between 11 and 14, the younger being the more likely. Marriage to a 9 year old was not out of the question in ancient times, just not as common as 11-14. It’d probably be the cultural equivalent to a 50-60 year old man marrying an 18 year old lady today.

Of course, people had a very different outlook on this subject in those days then today. Marriage to people that young had more to do with mental development then physical stuff.

 

[e61iuser]

But then again Joseph didn’t found Christianity, did he?

 

[tjm190]

Then Catholicism is in serious trouble too. Joseph married Mary when she was a preteen, or that’s at least what researchers believe. Why? Because in those days, it was the norm.

She was supposedly born in 20 B.C., making her at the youngest 14 when Jesus was born.

 

[maryjk]

The general opinion of historians is that she was somewhere between 11 and 14, the younger being the more likely. Marriage to a 9 year old was not out of the question in ancient times, just not as common as 11-14. It’d probably be the cultural equivalent to a 50-60 year old man marrying an 18 year old lady today.

Of course, people had a very different outlook on this subject in those days then today. Marriage to people that young had more to do with mental development then physical stuff.

But since it wasn’t marriage at 9, it was marriage at 6, there is a problem. The other fact is that Joseph and Mary never had sexual relations.

And since it wasn’t Joseph that founded Christianity, it was Christ, it really is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Islam has some truth in it. It’s not really proper to say “Islam is wrong.”

As to the founder Jesus Christ, He has a historical record of many witnesses attesting to His dying and rising again. The “witnesses” accepted martyrdom. Geographic borders do not contain Christianity as it spread throughout the world. The incidents of Christ theologically fulfill Old Testament prophecy which was integral in converting many in the early centuries. Today, miracles continue in Christ’s name, and the benevolence and sacrificial love of authentic Christians also makes for a great witness.

Now, these characteristics are an irreducible package deal. You will get skeptics saying “Well, other people martyr themselves for lies too!” Yes, but do they have all the other characteristics at once. In other words, if the killer is 6’ tall, wearing a black bandana, has a tattoo on his right forearm, speaks with a Bronx accent, and has red hair—you can’t arrest the first person you see with a tattoo on his arm and say, “See! See! Same characteristic!!”

Islam depends not on the initial testimony of many witnesses, consistent in their account of the Resurrection. But it is rather the private revelation of one man. I’m sure others here are more expert on the nature of their prophecies. There is also a cultural pedigree to Islam that makes it heavily a geographical religion.

None of this is definitive “proof” for Christianity or against Islam. As Pope John Paul II says, faith and reason are what we utilize. However, if even a skeptic were to compile the evidence, I think he has to not only take Christianity seriously, but that it is the strongest, most likely true religion out there.

 

[Alindawyl]

What it all boils down to is the assumption that Jesus is God is only an assumption. True? Maybe, but there is no clear answer to that question. At least not that I have been able to find.

John 10:31-33 states:

The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”

Jesus was a Jew speaking mainly to the Jews of 2000 years ago. The words he used were clear to those who heard him back then as being a claim to divinity using terms and concepts clearly identifiable by Jews (being the Lord of the Sabbath, being one with God the Father, using I AM to refer to himself in an authoritative way, etc). Some agreed and chose to follow him. Others disagreed, thinking him a madman or a liar and wanting to do what the Law called for by stoning a blasphemer.

Nowhere does Jesus ever state that anyone believing in his divinity, for whatever reason, had the wrong idea.

Whether his statements are that crystal clear to us in this day and age happens to be irrelevant. The reaction of the people at the time who heard his words speaks for itself. And we have the same choice that they had - accept or reject the claim of Jesus.

 

[LBSDBS]

But since it wasn’t marriage at 9, it was marriage at 6, there is a problem. The other fact is that Joseph and Mary never had sexual relations.

And since it wasn’t Joseph that founded Christianity, it was Christ, it really is comparing apples to oranges.

In the sense you seam to be coming from, it still sounds to me like you are assuming it ridiculous that God would entrust a pedophile with a sacred task such as prophecy, as where by any modern standards (as well as those mentioned in scripture, noting a 12 year old girl as a “child”) Joseph the carpenter, the man entrusted with the very critical task of raising Jesus, fits in to the same standards.

As for Mary being a virgin, here is Matthew 1:24-25 out of the Catholic bible.

Douay Rheims version:

And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

New international version:

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

The bottom line here, as I said earlier, is marriage was treated much differently in the past then it is today, and the whole outlook that people had on age differences in the past were also taken in a very different light. Today, it’s mostly a matter of social appeal. In the past, survival and mentality was taken far more in to account then it is today.

There was also allot of politics involved in marriage. At times, marrying a 6 year old could have little to do with love and/or sexuality and everything to do with politics. If a tribal leader wants to forge an alliance with another by marriage of his daughter as a condition (this usually done as a way to encourage each other not to go to war), and his only daughter is 6, then what can you do? Marriage between royalty and/or tribal leaders and their direct family was not a senseless custom. It was done because of the powerful leverage these bonds had in ancient politics. I actually don’t know the story behind Mohammad’s marriage to a 6 year old, but knowing the politics of the time, I’d almost bet that it had more to do with politics then whether or not he was a pedophile. That be the case, the entire story could get very complicated as to what his true intentions were and what was going through his head.

Ultimately, it’s irrelevant. Pedophilia by name or practice is not mentioned anywhere in the bible and is most certainly not a condition for prophets. The condition for prophets is in the accuracy of their foretelling of the future.

 

[LBSDBS]

John 10:31-33 states:

The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”

Jesus was a Jew speaking mainly to the Jews of 2000 years ago. The words he used were clear to those who heard him back then as being a claim to divinity using terms and concepts clearly identifiable by Jews (being the Lord of the Sabbath, being one with God the Father, using I AM to refer to himself in an authoritative way, etc). Some agreed and chose to follow him. Others disagreed, thinking him a madman or a liar and wanting to do what the Law called for by stoning a blasphemer.

Nowhere does Jesus ever state that anyone believing in his divinity, for whatever reason, had the wrong idea.

Whether his statements are that crystal clear to us in this day and age happens to be irrelevant. The reaction of the people at the time who heard his words speaks for itself. And we have the same choice that they had - accept or reject the claim of Jesus.

See my latest post on the thread that covers this specific subject. You make some interesting statements, but I’d rather hear what you have to say on the up to date discussion.

 

[fireproofpoodle]

In the sense you seam to be coming from, it still sounds to me like you are assuming it ridiculous that God would entrust a pedophile with a sacred task such as prophecy, as where by any modern standards (as well as those mentioned in scripture, noting a 12 year old girl as a “child”) Joseph the carpenter, the man entrusted with the very critical task of raising Jesus, fits in to the same standards.

As for Mary being a virgin, here is Matthew 1:24-25 out of the Catholic bible.

Douay Rheims version:

And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

New international version:

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

First of all, Joseph does not fit in the same standard as he had no sexual relationship with Mary at all, let alone when she was 9.

 

[russell007]

how do we know that Islam is false?

My questions about it are:

They claim to be decendants from Ishmael. Ok but then why is there no mention of Muslims before Mohammed?

If there was Muslims before Mohammed what bible did they use?

Seems if there was “Orthodox Muslims” (original, before Mohammed) not all of them would have followed Mohammed.

We have seen it through out history i.e. how many different Christian religions do we have now?
Even from day one the Nastics are as old as we are. You have orthodox Jews and other Jewish sects. And yes I know about the sunnies,shiites etc… But Im not talking about after the fact Its about before Mohammed.

There is no evidence the occupied Palastine has actual Palastinians living there.
In other words the people calling themselves Palastinian are not from the actual bloodline
from the biblical Palastinians. They are basicaly wondering Arabs. With all do respect

I believe the Muslims started with Mohammed.

The Jews can atleast trace their roots back to Abraham.

 

[LBSDBS]

LBSDBS;5561528:

In the sense you seam to be coming from, it still sounds to me like you are assuming it ridiculous that God would entrust a pedophile with a sacred task such as prophecy, as where by any modern standards (as well as those mentioned in scripture, noting a 12 year old girl as a “child”) Joseph the carpenter, the man entrusted with the very critical task of raising Jesus, fits in to the same standards.

As for Mary being a virgin, here is Matthew 1:24-25 out of the Catholic bible.

Douay Rheims version:

And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till

she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

New international version:

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

First of all, Joseph does not fit in the same standard as he had no sexual relationship with Mary at all, let alone when she was 9.

These old chestnut “until” quotes are getting tiresome. Let’s look at some others:

Acts 2:35 “until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” (Then Jesus will no longer sit at God’s right hand?)

1 cor. 15:25 “For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” (Then Christ will no longer reign?)

Matthew 5:18 “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (but then the Law will vanish?)

Matthew 28:20 "“And remember that I am always with you until the end of time.” (Then Jesus will leave us?)

I can’t provide a quote or referance but scripture says somewhere “she bore no children, until the day she died” (so, she had kids after she was dead?)

Clerely the word “until” does not always mean that something happenned afterwards.

God bless.

Good points and I will look in to them.

None the less, the point I was trying to make is that love life, whether with little girls or elderly women, is not a condition of prophecy, unless of course the person claiming to be a prophet is out breaking sexual rules like homosexuality and one night stands.

I do not know if Mohammad was a prophet nor do I have an opinion on the matter, but if I wanted to find out, I would not be looking at his love life. I would look at what he claimed the holy spirit told him would come to pass and if any of it ever failed. If I were you, I would look in to that if you really care about it. If you can catch Mohammad on a failed prediction like that, you can impeach him and Islam as a whole on the spot.

 

[imkingdad]

In the Beginning there was the Word, …

And the Word was made Flesh & Dwelt among us…

Proof from OT & NT Jesus existing at the Beginning & throughout Biblical times.

Islam uses books from Jewish Canon ( albeit with select revisions) But the OT or Jewish Canon makes no mention of Muslims or Islam in its historically proven true format(s).

Now the OT did say that Ismael would also be the Father of Many…, 1 should take into account that fact that Ismael was from a defective Line being the bastard child of Abraham and a result of Abraham’s Despair that God would not fulfill the promise made to him. Thus a corrupt seed certainly would not bear Good Fruit.

Others have also made some excellent points. especially the Lack of any Historical evidence of any type of a Pre-Mohammed form of Islam. Or any evidence whatsoever of the Great Battles for North America told to J. Smith by the purported angel Moroni. So Independent Historical Observers at the time & after have shown neither to be authentic in their origins.

Couple that with the absolute lack of ANY stated or Fulfilled Prophecy by either Mohammed or J. Smith & we see that claims to a Historical line of Prophets is also negated. Add to that the refusal of Mohammed to preach or adhere to the teachings of the so-called previous prophets of Islam ( of whom Jesus is considered to be 2nd only to Mohammed) and we have soild basis upon which to state that Islam is False ( as is Mormonism)…

Hope this Helps! God Bless you all in your pursuit of the truth.
If I have made any erroneous assertions etc please correct me as I have not yet reached a level of Perfection worthy of note.