How do we know Jesus is God?

[tonyrey]

The teaching of Jesus is either divine or human. If it is not divine how did it originate?

So far that question has not been answered satisfactorily…

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Nogginer;11875879:

İn that verse Jesus mean ı am messenger of God. The meaning is that Jesus is a prophet because Jesus behaved like a prophet but not like a God. Would God allow the creatures which He created with his power hand to torture God(Himself)! Doesn’t it mean that God hit Himself because power of every creature indeed is power of God which God gave them to use for a short time with a free will. Gospel of Mark 14:65 obviously prove and enlighten that Jesus claimed to be messenger of God but not son of God.

65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy:

and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mark 14:65

If you are going to converse on this subject be honest in your approach. From my post above, " Christ said He and the Father were one. And when He asked Peter who Peter thought He was, Peter answered, " …You are the Son of the Most High, the Living God…" And there are other similar statments like, " …If you do My Will, I and the Father will come and make Our abode in you…" Shall I go on? Why don’t you read a good Catholic Bible?. And why don’t you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church so you will know what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

You have given an Islamic interpretation, but we certainly disagree with that because it does not present what we have always taught, from the beginning 2,000 years ago. Islam did not begin until 600 years later and the Koran was not written until hundreds of years after that.

Your argument that God would not allow his son to suffer is a biased view. He came not only as a Divine Person ( God the Son ) but as a real man to give us his Revelation in person. This meant he would be like us in all things, that he would suffer the consequences of presenting that message, that he would suffer at the hands of the world, as his followers are suffering today and have been for 2,000 years. But his suffering had the spiritual benefit of making amends for all the offences man has committed against his Father, and continues to commit. And by his suffering, death and Resurrection, he made salvation possible for all who would believe in him and obey all his commandments.

So he was not merely a prophet, he was not merely a messenger, he was God, in the flesh. And many of his followers, from the beginnig, have been of the peoples which now comprise Islam. Indeed many of these people are still Christian, even though Islam has done its best to erradicate them, using the most inhumane means immaginable.

Linus2nd

Linus2nd

 

[hasantas]

The teaching of Jesus is either divine or human. If it is not divine how did it originate?

So far that question has not been answered satisfactorily…

God teachs prophets and reveales them and somtimes God give miracles to prophets. Ofcourse teaching of Jesus is divine by revelation from God. Jesus himself is not divine but fulfiled a divine work like other prophets. But with “teaching” what do you mean? For example ı think and sure Jesus never said that He is Son of God. Because Gospels are interpretation after interpretation. İn this way many interpretation may had mixed.

 

[hasantas]

hasantas;11876626:

If you are going to converse on this subject be honest in your approach. From my post above, " Christ said He and the Father were one. And when He asked Peter who Peter thought He was, Peter answered, " …You are the Son of the Most High, the Living God…" And there are other similar statments like, " …If you do My Will, I and the Father will come and make Our abode in you…" Shall I go on? Why don’t you read a good Catholic Bible?. And why don’t you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church so you will know what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

You have given an Islamic interpretation, but we certainly disagree with that because it does not present what we have always taught, from the beginning 2,000 years ago. Islam did not begin until 600 years later and the Koran was not written until hundreds of years after that.

Your argument that God would not allow his son to suffer is a biased view. He came not only as a Divine Person ( God the Son ) but as a real man to give us his Revelation in person. This meant he would be like us in all things, that he would suffer the consequences of presenting that message, that he would suffer at the hands of the world, as his followers are suffering today and have been for 2,000 years. But his suffering had the spiritual benefit of making amends for all the offences man has committed against his Father, and continues to commit. And by his suffering, death and Resurrection, he made salvation possible for all who would believe in him and obey all his commandments.

So he was not merely a prophet, he was not merely a messenger, he was God, in the flesh. And many of his followers, from the beginnig, have been of the peoples which now comprise Islam. Indeed many of these people are still Christian, even though Islam has done its best to erradicate them, using the most inhumane means immaginable.

Linus2nd

Linus2nd

İf ı believe that Jesus worked to disperse faith and suffered many hard woes in the name of God then could it need to God come on world himself. Because every prophet does his job in name of God. Who rebel against a prophet that means he rebels against God. İf Jesus is God or not there is either meaning. So ı choose the certain way but do not go on path which has many mystery and hazards. Muhammed asked people am ı not messenger of Allah? So Jesus may had asked in same way. But Gospels were written a long time after Jesus. So there could be some mixed interpretation. İf Muslims did not write Qur’an when the revelation came there would be many different interpretation.

We Muslim believe and know very obviously that Qur’an is exactly revelation from God. Muhammed is only an intercessor and prophet. A prophet declare what God revealed him exactly and Sahabas wrote what absolutely came out from Muhammed mouth. İf you want to understand Gospels in a true way Qur’an will be very useful. I do not intend to assault Christianity but ı see even Christians have differences between themselves. İslam may be useful ofcourse if Christians believe in İslam too as Muslims believe in Christianity.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Linusthe2nd;11877302:

İf ı believe that Jesus worked to disperse faith and suffered many hard woes in the name of God then could it need to God come on world himself. Because every prophet does his job in name of God. Who rebel against a prophet that means he rebels against God. İf Jesus is God or not there is either meaning. So ı choose the certain way but do not go on path which has many mystery and hazards. Muhammed asked people am ı not messenger of Allah? So Jesus may had asked in same way. But Gospels were written a long time after Jesus. So there could be some mixed interpretation. İf Muslims did not write Qur’an when the revelation came there would be many different interpretation.

We Muslim believe and know very obviously that Qur’an is exactly revelation from God. Muhammed is only an intercessor and prophet. A prophet declare what God revealed him exactly and Sahabas wrote what absolutely came out from Muhammed mouth. İf you want to understand Gospels in a true way Qur’an will be very useful. I do not intend to assault Christianity but ı see even Christians have differences between themselves. İslam may be useful ofcourse if Christians believe in İslam too as Muslims believe in Christianity.

Read my last post. You do not have any proof at all that Muhammed was visited by an angel of God, none. We do know that that is what has been handed down by men of extremely violent natures, with a bloody history. We do know that Muhammed himself was an extremely violent and bloody figure. I would rather have my Prophets be more peaceful, who didn’t run around killing everyone who refused to bow at their feet.

And don’t tell me the persecution and murder of Christians has ever been justified. And you should be aware that we are fully informed about what Muslims are doing to Christians today throughout the world.

Linus2nd

Linu2nd

 

[tonyrey]

*The teaching of Jesus is either divine or human. If it is not divine how did it originate?

It is impossible to separate the life and teaching of Jesus. His entire Mission was to liberate us from evil by the power of His love so that we can share His life in heaven:

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. **2 **For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. **3 **Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. **4 **I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

**6 **“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. **8 **For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. **9 **I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 **All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. **And glory has come to me through them.

**11 **I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

**13 **“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. **14 **I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. **16 **They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. **17 **Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

**20 **“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. **22 **I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

**24 **“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. **25 **“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. **26 **I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” John 17

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I think we need to choose our words carefully here. Even in the examples you gave, those individuals did not die for a lie. In the immortal words of George Costanza: “'it’s not a lie if you believe it.” They died for something that wasn’t true, but that’s different from dying for a lie.
In the case of the first Apostles and disciples, we’re faced with similar questions. Did the Apostles lie? Or did they believe? I think their actions showed quite clearly that they did not make up the resurrection, they truly believed it. St. Paul goes so far as to say that without the resurrection Christianity is nonsense. Early Christian writings were so focused on the resurrection that pretty much anything else about the life of Jesus wasn’t written down until years later.

Don’t be a stranger Father, this is a good place to keep company with some interesting people from all over the map and through the entire range of belief and unbelief.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

It is impossible to separate the life and teaching of Jesus. His entire Mission was to liberate us from evil by the power of His love so that we can share His life in heaven:

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. **2 **For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. **3 **Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. **4 **I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

**6 **“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. **8 **For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. **9 **I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 **All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. **And glory has come to me through them.

**11 **I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

**13 **“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. **14 **I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. **16 **They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. **17 **Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

**20 **“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. **22 **I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

**24 **“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. **25 **“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. **26 **I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” John 17

Thanks " T. "

Linus2nd

 

[hasantas]

hasantas;11877504:

Read my last post. You do not have any proof at all that Muhammed was visited by an angel of God, none. We do know that that is what has been handed down by men of extremely violent natures, with a bloody history. We do know that Muhammed himself was an extremely violent and bloody figure. I would rather have my Prophets be more peaceful, who didn’t run around killing everyone who refused to bow at their feet.

And don’t tell me the persecution and murder of Christians has ever been justified. And you should be aware that we are fully informed about what Muslims are doing to Christians today throughout the world.

Linus2nd

Linu2nd

1. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. Al-Maide:32

İf someone kill other wrongly God will punish him. So if a Muslim(in fact it is not important who he is) kill other God will punish him. A Muslim know this very obviously. Unfortunately every Muslim is not a good Muslim as every mankind is not a good human.

The source of wars and quarrel is not religion indeed. Sometimes two brother kill each other although they have same faith, father, mother. İf we do not tolerance other’s differences there will be always quarrels. But ı do not know a coordinated rampages towards Christians by Muslims. There may be some individual samples but we must condemn them and we should do not allow any grudge to break into our hearts. Amin.

The line between Christianity and İslam is too tiny. We are very close too each other. We claim to be warrior for love so we must try to love each other very much althoug of all differences.

Muhammed is messenger of God and seal of prophet.To show proofs take too long. Perhaps in an other thread. That is true that Muhammed make wars but that was by permission of Allah. Because pagans tortured and killed Muslims and Allah gave permission to fight. Muslims fighted with Jews too but Jews engaged in confederation with pagans and helped pagans against Muslims in wars. But when war finished Muslim did not any persecute. İslam is religion of peace although of all endeavours to show it as converse.

SALAM.

 

[hasantas]

It is impossible to separate the life and teaching of Jesus. His entire Mission was to liberate us from evil by the power of His love so that we can share His life in heaven:

 

[tonyrey]

It is as difficult to prove that Jesus is God, as it is to prove beyond a doubt that God himself exists.

However, if you believe in Jesus’s message and teachings as given in the NT, then there should be no doubt in your mind that he was not a false messenger of God.

According to traditional Hindu beliefs God periodically incarnates as a human being to teach and save human beings. So such a belief that Jesus was a God incarnate is not as outlandish as Jews and Muslims would claim.

It is illogical to believe God **never **lightens our darkness by coming into the world and sharing our joys and sorrows.

 

[tonyrey]

The possible examples would keep us up for days. There will always be people willing to die for a cause…good or bad. It is just a fact of human behavior.

To die for your enemies as well as your friends is a different matter altogether…

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey;11879225:

I want to bold passages in a different way and put Messenger instead of Son and Lord or God instead of Father. We will see the meaning change. And also notice that Jesus never says anything that He can do by himself. Jesus says always ı will ask Father(God) and ı will beg from Father(God). if Jesus were part of deity he would not talk like that.

It is reasonable to expect Jesus to speak like a man when He was teaching us how to pray.

He Just talks like a prophet. Does it can be understand obviously in any verse as if Jesus is God or Jesus has an almighty power except miracles? And if God incarnated in Jesus body but never used his divine powers then does it should be any mean a God in body but useless?

Jesus often used His divine power when He worked miracles but His teaching alone reveals His moral perfection.

When Son suffer then does Father suffer too? İf Father does not suffer then they must be different two persons or gods. But Christianity claim to believe in one God.

The Father suffers because He is fully united to the Son:

I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. **22 **I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.A prophet would never speak like that.

Otherwise … İn Gospels which are close to original there are not any statements like Son or Father! When we attempt to give that meaning in Gospels there will be always contradictions.

The statements made by Jesus wouldn’t make sense if you changed their meanings.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God

, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Jesus is speaking as a man but that doesn’t prevent Him from being divine. Do you think it is impossible for God to become incarnate?

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Jesus was praying in the presence of His apostles. How else could He have spoken to the Father? “Now they have known that all things whatsoever We have given me are of Us.” !!!

Jesus would have been regarded as a raving lunatic as well as a blasphemer.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
The second verse speaks for itself…

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

That doesn’t mean Jesus is no more than a man.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:

that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Has any man been loved by God before the foundation of the world?!

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t see a difference in will in the verse’s. Imho the issue is to view the verse as another individual conversing with God in a contrary view of the Trinity. Perspective is all it is.

The will is one of the same one God.

Anyway the question I see a continued issue with is: How is it Jesus died on the Cross when its impossible for God to die?

This question involves retrospective thinking of our own divinization. The Cross was for you, not for God. Its indicative of your path.

The question becomes one of the same. How will you die and be resurrected as a divinized soul in the communion of Gods holy people.

With Christians in general this is where is see a great deal of confusion.

 

[Sochi]

Jesus clearly claimed to be God. Here is a passage from the Gospel of Mark: (Mark 14:61, Douay-Rheims Version) drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=14&l=62#x Emphasis mine.

From there you can look at C.S. Lewis’ “Liar, Lunatic, Lord” argument.

I’m not claiming that Jesus was any of the three categories Lewis proposed, or which you propose. And that list is not complete. I’m only claiming that there might be other understandings, or at least one, of those words.

I’m also claiming that the christianist understandings of those words is naive. If anyone is a liar, albeit unwittingly (or not, as we know) it is translators, witnesses, copyists, collectors, interpreters, and believers. I’m only claiming that what can only be seen by an outsider as a centuries long game of “telephone” may have distorted the actual meaning and intent of those words as they might have been originally spoken in a language not used as and original test source. Of course, it is a requirement of “Faith” that those translators, witnesses, copyists, collectors, interpreters, and believers not be questioned. Due to experience and study, I question them, finding unquestioning/ed faith to be an abandonment of intellect and all the virtues claimed as being christianist.

 

[Counterpoint]

I have read the entire Koran, and I have spoken to a local Imam about some questions I had.
The Koran does NOT claim that Jesus is the Messiah … it simply calls him a Prophet of Allah.

“O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah” Surat An-Nisa 4:171

 

[POJIUJH]

Thanks for the advice, Linus2nd. Actually I was on the edge of joining a seminary and had won some awards for knowledge of Catholic theology. Also, though amateur, have studied the historic context of the “Catholic” Bible, as well as the common self-referential dogma based inquiry. From here, those phrases could mean something very congruent with panentheism. And then there are all the problems commensurate with translation, collections, meaning, level of understanding of recorders, witnesses, scholars, etc. So, sorry, didn’t mean to step on your sensitive toes, was just asking. Not up to some mental stretches? Wasn’t necessary to slam, eh?

That didn’t come across as a question Sochi, it more sounded like passive aggressive sarcasm. If you don’t want people to become frustrated at your questions, you will need to either write with a clearer tone or cut the arrogance.

 

[Sochi]

That didn’t come across as a question Sochi, it more sounded like passive aggressive sarcasm. If you don’t want people to become frustrated at your questions, you will need to either write with a clearer tone or cut the arrogance.

POJIUHJ, you have a point. But it wasn’t a question; the question in it was pointing out that the author simply dismissed my statement without considering that there may be an at least valid background to my position. In other words, I agree with you, yet looking at so much on here one must conclude that there is a far greater investment in self verification than in actually perhaps learning something. I’m already quite clear on Linusthe2nd’s position, having strongly espoused it myself at one time. He has no clue of mine.

Linusthe2nd’s comment to me started out “Oh, please…” which in my circles is equivalent to saying “you’re and idiot” and went on in that vein, demonstrating exactly what I was trying to get to, that part of a strongly inculcated faith is a certain quality of arrogance. Do you know the root derivation of arrogance? It means "without question(ing). That includes a rapid and unthinking dismissal of the fact, right or wrong according to some Catholics perceptions, that there do exist other ways of looking at things from other perspectives that are on their own either internally valid, (as are the arguments of the Church) or more Universally valid.

So, you are right, I got a bit frustrated. On the other hand, I’ve had at least one, maybe more statements similar to yours made on my behalf by Catholics on here to other Catholics. So there was also an element in my words of crediting the object of my comment with skin at least as thick as mine. But as I said, still, you have a point. Thanks.

 

[oldcelt]

Simple answer: We don’t. We either believe it (faith), or do not.

 

[Amandil]

I’m not claiming that Jesus was any of the three categories Lewis proposed, or which you propose. And that list is not complete. I’m only claiming that there might be other understandings, or at least one, of those words.

The Jews who wanted Him killed were under no misunderstanding about what He was claiming to be.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy;** because you, being a man, make yourself God.**”

I’m also claiming that the christianist understandings of those words is naive.

Which is absurd. You’re surely not claiming to know so much that you can make such a statement against the huge majority of Saints and Sages of the 2,000 year history of the Church, are you?

To me, that seems not only naïve, but extremely arrogant.

If anyone is a liar, albeit unwittingly (or not, as we know) it is translators, witnesses, copyists, collectors, interpreters, and believers. I’m only claiming that what can only be seen by an outsider as a centuries long game of “telephone” may have distorted the actual meaning and intent of those words as they might have been originally spoken in a language not used as and original test source. Of course, it is a requirement of “Faith” that those translators, witnesses, copyists, collectors, interpreters, and believers not be questioned.

Which is not only highly irrational, given the seriousness of the subject matter in question, but also illogical.

It seems rather this claim is an a priori statement based on your own assumptions to discount the history contrary to your beliefs rather than conclusions drawn from the events themselves.

From the beginning the Church had Bishops and Priests who were highly trained in the Faith, who ran scriptoriums and who supervised the copyists and proofread their copies to assure accuracy of the books they copied.

To compare it with a game of “telephone” is simplistic, insulting, and rather ridiculous.

Due to experience and study, I question them, finding unquestioning/ed faith to be an abandonment of intellect and all the virtues claimed as being christianist.

What is also an abandonment of intellect is unreasonable and irrational doubt.

I’d take methodical faith over irrational doubt any day of the week.