How do we know Jesus was actually working miracles and not using tricks a modern day magician would use?

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I saw this video of Penn and Teller, two magicians, giving their critique of Christianity. They would hold out a plate with one piece of bread and a fish, then cover it with a cloth, which they then pulled off and there were multiple fishes and bread. Then they poured water into a wine glass, but when it filled up, it was what appeared to be wine. There was another magician who walked across the River Thames in England, too…

How do we know Jesus was working miracles? Perhaps He was using illusions?

But I generally think of some of His miracles as something a magician could never do, such as:

Raising the dead (Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter)
Giving sight to the blind.
Calming of a storm
Causing a fig tree to wither
The ear of Malchus.

But how can I rule out the magician accusation? Apart from the arguments that I have just given?
 
JDGaney asks : "How do we know Jesus was working miracles? Perhaps He was using illusions?"

How do I know know that Jesus Christ performed Miracles?
Faith.

Because the New Testament says that Jesus performed Miracles.
If someone chooses to NOT believe that (mostly) the New Testament records True events, then that’s FINE with me.

I long-ago decided to believe what the New Testament says, unless I discover Evidence to the Contrary.
I have an Open Mind, I am willing to listen carefully to people when they make Philosophical Arguments.
But, the BEST most people can TRULY Claim is that the New Testament is faulty (or, just Plain Wrong), in THEIR Opinion.
(Now, the Old Testament is different, with the Garden of Eden, a FLOOD, the parting of the Red Sea, and other BIG, BIG Things. It is easier to attack something that is mind-bending to even consider.)

So, it is MY Opinion that Jesus Christ performed all of the Healings listed in the Gospels.
I also believe that the 12 Apostles healed lots of people, because it records Jesus as He sent them out to Heal people, and later they returned and talked about it.
Also, many of their Miracles are recorded in the Acts of the Apostles.
This is what MY Faith tells me.
But really, it is NO Big Deal to you.
And that’s the Way it should be . . . something for Everybody.
 
JDGaney said:
I saw this video of Penn and Teller, two magicians, giving their critique of Christianity. They would hold out a plate with one piece of bread and a fish, then cover it with a cloth, which they then pulled off and there were multiple fishes and bread. Then they poured water into a wine glass, but when it filled up, it was what appeared to be wine. There was another magician who walked across the River Thames in England, too…

How do we know Jesus was working miracles? Perhaps He was using illusions?

But I generally think of some of His miracles as something a magician could never do, such as:

Raising the dead (Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter)
Giving sight to the blind.
Calming of a storm
Causing a fig tree to wither
The ear of Malchus.

But how can I rule out the magician accusation? Apart from the arguments that I have just given?
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If something is not real it cannot be faked.
As for the magician’s accusation, ask them to prove that His miracles are not real (like sight to the blind and raising the dead). 🙂 :gopray:
 
I don’t think we need to explain anything to them, I have the personal relationship w/ Him and that’s enought “proof” for me.

That said…sure they can make it look like a glass of water can turn into wine, but can they change 100 gallons of water into fine wine while at someone elses house at a party?
 
Why would God trick us? He created everything so He has no need for tricks of a magician. He is “I AM” so tricks are kind of pointless.

Ultimately it boils down to Faith I suppose but I just KNOW in my heart of hearts that it is Truth and not tricks 🙂
 
I believe the veracity of Christ’s miracles - of his entire Mission - is found in his Resurrection.
 
without looking at the other responses…

no magician has ever brought someone back to life, four days dead.

😉
 
China123 said:
Why would God trick us? He created everything so He has no need for tricks of a magician. He is “I AM” so tricks are kind of pointless.

Ultimately it boils down to Faith I suppose but I just KNOW in my heart of hearts that it is Truth and not tricks 🙂
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and can the magicians turn a plateful of fush into enough to feed 5000 and stills have some left over?

All too often, we think that people from long ago were too unsophisticated to realize the potential for fraud. It’s a form of chrono-centric pride, I think.
 
The life, death and teaching of Jesus are sufficient evidence that He wasn’t an impostor.
 
Jesus could have been an alien with advanced technology, a time-traveler, a magician or something other than what the church claims. At some point you have to decide what to believe when there’s not enough evidence to fully support any particular position.

Frankly, I don’t think his miracles is what defined him as God. It’s said that Satan can also grant people power and I think that very advanced technology can perform even some of the more amazing miracles- such as bringing somebody back from the dead (it may be possible to reanimate somebody if the damage to the body can be repaired through nanotechnology, etc.). I think he needed the miracles to call attention to himself, as there are only so many would have followed him on teaching alone. Somebody could potentially pretend to be a divine figure and fool most people with technology and trickery.

But my (developing) faith is rooted in the scripture and infallible church doctrine. I would doubt my faith if the infallible church doctrine were proven to be false beyond a reasonable doubt. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe otherwise. The fact that Jesus COULD have faked it doesn’t mean he DID fake it. I think, in fact, that we have seen a lot of false prophets and we will see a lot more of them as technology makes it ever easier.
 
All of the atheists’ talk about the historical Jesus and who really was and what he really did kind of annoys me. We don’t worship a dead guy from a long time ago, we worship the living God who is here right now as we speak. If they can’t get past that they will continue with this nonsense in an attempt to trip us up and make us question our faith.

As a side note, I do really like Penn and Teller. I just wish they would stay out of the atheist evangelization movement.
 
JDGaney said:
I saw this video of Penn and Teller, two magicians, giving their critique of Christianity. They would hold out a plate with one piece of bread and a fish, then cover it with a cloth, which they then pulled off and there were multiple fishes and bread. Then they poured water into a wine glass, but when it filled up, it was what appeared to be wine. There was another magician who walked across the River Thames in England, too…

How do we know Jesus was working miracles? Perhaps He was using illusions?

But I generally think of some of His miracles as something a magician could never do, such as:

Raising the dead (Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter)
Giving sight to the blind.
Calming of a storm
Causing a fig tree to wither
The ear of Malchus.

But how can I rule out the magician accusation? Apart from the arguments that I have just given?
Click to expand...
  1. He came back from the dead. Magicians can’t do that. If He can come back from the dead, then there is no reason to doubt that He could do much lesser miracles.
  2. He’s God. If He wasn’t God and was just a magician-trickster then He was a very evil man. But how do you square such good moral teachings, such healings of others, such a death as He suffered, if He was an evil trickster?
 
JDGaney said:
I saw this video of Penn and Teller, two magicians, giving their critique of Christianity. They would hold out a plate with one piece of bread and a fish, then cover it with a cloth, which they then pulled off and there were multiple fishes and bread. Then they poured water into a wine glass, but when it filled up, it was what appeared to be wine. There was another magician who walked across the River Thames in England, too…

How do we know Jesus was working miracles? Perhaps He was using illusions?

But I generally think of some of His miracles as something a magician could never do, such as:

Raising the dead (Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter)
Giving sight to the blind.
Calming of a storm
Causing a fig tree to wither
The ear of Malchus.

But how can I rule out the magician accusation? Apart from the arguments that I have just given?
Click to expand...
For two thousand years, people like Penn and Teller have been trying to prove that very same thing…the fact that they’ve failed ought to tell you something.
 
St_Francis said:
and can the magicians turn a plateful of fush into enough to feed 5000 and stills have some left over?

All too often, we think that people from long ago were too unsophisticated to realize the potential for fraud. It’s a form of chrono-centric pride, I think.
Click to expand...
Oops–I quoted the wrong post :o
 
Penn & Teller, they’re the ones who made an episode smearing mother Teresa, right? Into the trash it goes…
 
Faith is a supernatural gift and to argue from the truths of faith with one who does not have it and expect that person to be convinced by our testimony is fruitless, simply because That gift comes from God and not from human reasoning. We can show that our Faith is reasonable, and consistent with the truth. The reward of Faith is seeing or understanding what we believe We have the historical testimony of the Saints, even testimonies of Saints instrumental in raising the dead Historic evidence that Jesus Christ arose is even more abundant than historic evidence that Caesar ruled in Rome. Yet great as historic evidence is, it also is surpassed by the mighty Resurrection Power in the lives of EVERY TRUE BELIEVER (A, Leander) He is Risen Indeed!!
 
Just as a side note; what about the modern miracles and those not so modern that are still being preformed in His name. Like Our Lady of Guadalupe’s tulma, as well as the images reflected in her eyes. What about all the verifiable Eucharistic Miracles down through the ages? What about some of St. Padre Pio’s miracles that occurred in many of our life time that have been verified? The point being if we believe those miracles have occurred; why wouldn’t a reasonable person believe in the miracles of Jesus?
 
St_Francis said:
All too often, we think that people from long ago were too unsophisticated to realize the potential for fraud. It’s a form of chrono-centric pride, I think.
Click to expand...
On what basis do you consider it unlikely that the twelve apostles and Christ’s other followers (surely most of whom had little to no education) could have been able to discern the difference between supernatural miracles and natural magic tricks?
 
Trebor135 said:
On what basis do you consider it unlikely that the twelve apostles and Christ’s other followers (surely most of whom had little to no education) could have been able to discern the difference between supernatural miracles and natural magic tricks?
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I’m not sure I understand your position. Which are you saying … the apostles and disciples would or would not have been able to discern the difference between trickery and a supernatural event?
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
I’m not sure I understand your position. Which are you saying … the apostles and disciples would or would not have been able to discern the difference between trickery and a supernatural event?
Click to expand...
Sorry for being unclear. I wished to know why you believe Christ’s disciples two thousand years ago could not have been duped by magic tricks which looked like miracles.
 
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