How do we KNOW that Mary was beautiful?

[lizaanne]

I’ve pulled a bit of a quote from the “jumpers” thread that got me thinking:

I think Our Lady was the most beautiful woman who lived.

How do you know this? We have no photos of her, only artistic renderings, or images produced by those who have had visions of her. How do we know what she truly looked like and that she was beautiful? Would God have chosen only the most beautiful for his Son? Why? What would that say about the plain and perhaps not so attractive? Would they not be worthy?

If we assume that because God made Mary as the second Ark of the Covenant, and therefore made her perfect and part of perfection is beauty, then that tells me that God does indeed have a sense of what is beautiful and what is not, and would not make her to be ugly. And so then, what does that mean about how God sees those of us who are not considered beautiful looking people?

Does anyone else see where I’m trying to go with this?

~Liza

 

[jrabs]

I think sin has a tendency to blemish one’s appearance to a certain degree.

Mary was without sin, I believe she radiated a beauty that one could not describe. Her inner beauty and purity shown through.

 

[deb1]

i think that you are thinking too much in terms of the human concept of beauty.

my grandmother was the most beautiful woman that i have ever met. she was a strong, broad shouldered, plumpish woman with a broad face and a flattish nose. her iron gray hair waved about her shoulders like a lion. due to heavy farm work in the sun, her face was lined with wrinkles and crevasses.

but something shone out of her that made her more beautiful then the most famous supermodel on TV. it wasn’t a sexual beauty, it was something beyond that.

i hope that i am only half as beautiful as she was.

 

[lizaanne]

I think sin has a tendency to blemish one’s appearance to a certain degree.

So then - a poor girl who is born to have bad teeth, bad skin, a big bulbous nose and large ears, and thin scraggly hair (all things in today’s society which could be considered unattractive when taken together). Is suffering from sin?

Sorry - I don’t get that. Can you explain further?

~Liza

 

[lizaanne]

i think that you are thinking too much in terms of the human concept of beauty.

Those are exactly the concepts I’m thinking in because I am only a human. Mary is always depicted as being beautiful - visually. And she has been used as an example of beauty over an over again.

Does it even matter if she was beautiful? What is she was plain? Not ugly, but plain? Would it make a difference?

~Liza

 

[jrabs]

So then - a poor girl who is born to have bad teeth, bad skin, a big bulbous nose and large ears, and thin scraggly hair (all things in today’s society which could be considered unattractive when taken together). Is suffering from sin?

Sorry - I don’t get that. Can you explain further?

~Liza

Where did I say that? sheesh. Talk about turning my post about to say something really dreadful.

 

[deb1]

So then - a poor girl who is born to have bad teeth, bad skin, a big bulbous nose and large ears, and thin scraggly hair (all things in today’s society which could be considered unattractive when taken together). Is suffering from sin?

Sorry - I don’t get that. Can you explain further?

~Liza

haven’t you ever met anyone whose inner beauty shone through despite their outter appearances? that is what the poster is referring to.

some of the most beautiful women i have known were not television pretty. if you judged them by their photo they would be considered plain. yet, in their presence, you could not fail to see the beauty in these women.

 

[jrabs]

haven’t you ever met anyone whose inner beauty shone through despite their outter appearances? that is what the poster is referring to.

some of the most beautiful women i have known were not television pretty. if you judged them by their photo they would be considered plain. yet, in their presence, you could not fail to see the beauty in these women.

Thanks Deb. That’s what I was trying to say.
Beauty shines through from a perfect soul.

 

[deb1]

Those are exactly the concepts I’m thinking in because I am only a human. Mary is always depicted as being beautiful - visually. And she has been used as an example of beauty over an over again.

Does it even matter if she was beautiful? What is she was plain? Not ugly, but plain? Would it make a difference?

~Liza

you are limiting yourself then. yes, you can see the other type of beauty despite being human.

i would imagine that mary is depicted as lovely in art because visually it is difficult, if not impossible, to show true inner beauty in art form.

trust me liza, someday you will meet such a person, and you’ll be amazed.

 

[jmcrae]

So then - a poor girl who is born to have bad teeth, bad skin, a big bulbous nose and large ears, and thin scraggly hair (all things in today’s society which could be considered unattractive when taken together). Is suffering from sin?

Sorry - I don’t get that. Can you explain further?

~Liza

Such a girl, if she were to radiate an inner happiness, and if she were unfailingly kind, and careful to take care of herself as well as possible, would be thought beautiful by all her friends and family - and after all, who else really counts?

 

[jimmy]

Where did I say that? sheesh. Talk about turning my post about to say something really dreadful.

You did say that sin affects your looks to a degree. With this assertion you would have to assume that the supermodels and many hollywood acots/actresses are the purest people while the uglier people physically are the most impure people. It is simply a logical conclusion from what you said.

 

[lizaanne]

you are limiting yourself then. yes, you can see the other type of beauty despite being human.

i would imagine that mary is depicted as lovely in art because visually it is difficult, if not impossible, to show true inner beauty in art form.

trust me liza, someday you will meet such a person, and you’ll be amazed.

I have known such people - I’m just trying to understand the point I’ve originally stated. What does Mary’s beauty say about how God understands beauty?

I “GET IT” folks - I understand the concept of inner beauty - that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about physical attractiveness - aesthetic beauty.

~Liza

 

[jrabs]

You did say that sin affects your looks to a degree. With this assertion you would have to assume that the supermodels and many hollywood acots/actresses are the purest people while the uglier people physically are the most impure people. It is simply a logical conclusion from what you said.

while sin can create the red bulbous nose of an alcoholic I am not talking about that kind of sin. I am not talking about sin manifesting itself as big ears.

Ever know someone with a horrible addiction? Somehow they just are not as attractive as a pure and kind person.
Ever see police mugshots? Without any blemishes on the mugshot to scar the face, can you say you have ever seen a beautiful and radiant mugshot? Nope - only because you know that the pic has sin attached and somehow makes the person less attractive.

 

[deb1]

I have known such people - I’m just trying to understand the point I’ve originally stated. What does Mary’s beauty say about how God understands beauty?

I “GET IT” folks - I understand the concept of inner beauty - that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about physical attractiveness - aesthetic beauty.

~Liza

i don’t know if mary would be considered physically beautiful. she was beautiful but i don’t know if she would have looked lovely in a photo or not.

i can’t find my bible at the moment to look up this verse but in sammuel, god tells the prophet that he doesn’t see the same way we humans do, but instead judges a man’s heart.

that is the only answer that i know to give you.

i’m not certain what else that you want. i’m sorry.

 

[Peterdiago]

The whole issue of “sin makes you look ugly” and “piety makes you look beautiful” is a load of hogwash; sorry, but it is. Even if we did not have modern examples (porn stars are employed precisely because they are both beautiful and sinful) there are Biblical references to the same.

Read the description of the Messiah in Isaiah - the disfigured countenance and so forth. Lucifer can appear an an Angel of Light - hardly “ugly”.

If you want to speak of “inner beauty” then that is something which is very different to the physical aesthetic beauty. But it is wishful thinking to suggest that everyone looks for that, or even uses the term.

I think that we all like to THINK that we notice the inner beauty; but we don’t. We notice physical beauty first because that is what our senses are - physical things.

So, was Mary beautiful? Maybe, maybe not. Does it really matter?

 

[water]

I’ve pulled a bit of a quote from the “jumpers” thread that got me thinking:

How do you know this? We have no photos of her, only artistic renderings, or images produced by those who have had visions of her. How do we know what she truly looked like and that she was beautiful? Would God have chosen only the most beautiful for his Son? Why? What would that say about the plain and perhaps not so attractive? Would they not be worthy?

If we assume that because God made Mary as the second Ark of the Covenant, and therefore made her perfect and part of perfection is beauty, then that tells me that God does indeed have a sense of what is beautiful and what is not, and would not make her to be ugly. And so then, what does that mean about how God sees those of us who are not considered beautiful looking people?

Does anyone else see where I’m trying to go with this?

~Liza

How do you know the original refer to physical beauty of Virgin Mary?

We can approach the question two ways:

• physical beauty: through approved apparitions and it is up to us to believe or not.
• spiritual beauty: sure, she is and everybody can’t deny that.

 

[Peterdiago]

How do you know the original refer to physical beauty of Virgin Mary?

She doesn’t - but she chose to take it that way to ask the question “Was she physically beautiful?”

through approved apparitions and it is up to us to believe or not.

Approved apparitions have NOT given a consistent appearance to Mary - Don Diego saw a native girl, for example. So, we don’t know if the apparitions are actually accurate portrayals of what she looked like.

 

[water]

She doesn’t - but she chose to take it that way to ask the question “Was she physically beautiful?”

Approved apparitions have NOT given a consistent appearance to Mary - Don Diego saw a native girl, for example. So, we don’t know if the apparitions are actually accurate portrayals of what she looked like.

So, are you implying a native girl is not beautiful?
Sometimes, I can see beauty in a Native American lady than in the one with blue eyes and blond hair.

 

[Peterdiago]

So, are you implying a native girl is not beautiful?

No, you are infering that.

What I am stating is that we have no assurance that the apparitions bear any resemblance to what Mary actually looked like. Hence, we cannot make any statements about what Mary looked like based on them. If all the apparitions are beautiful, it does not mean that Mary was.

 

[water]

No, you are infering that.

What I am stating is that we have no assurance that the apparitions bear any resemblance to what Mary actually looked like. Hence, we cannot make any statements about what Mary looked like based on them. If all the apparitions are beautiful, it does not mean that Mary was.

oh yah, of course we don’t know what she actually looked like. Nobody can make a statement what exactly she looked like, but who would be prevented from saying what she looked like?

PS: sorry for misunderstanding, I was thinking something quite different when answering the posts. My bad.