How do we know that Mary was without sin and forever a virgin

[LennyFL]

If it is so important that Mary was sinless why doesn’t the bible just come out and say it. The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967, Vol. VII, pp. 378-381 acknowledges “…the Immaculate Conception is not taught explicitly in Scripture… The earliest Church Fathers regarded Mary as holy but not as absolutely sinless… It is impossible to give a precise date when the belief was held as a matter of faith, but by the 8th or 9th century it seems to have been generally admitted…” The bible says “Well then, sin entered the world through one man Adam}, and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.” (Rom. 5:12, JB)

How do we know that she remained a virgin after Jesus was born? The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337) regarding the Greek words a-del-phoi’ and a-del-phai’, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these “have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense. Toward the end of the 4th century Helvidius in a work now lost pressed this fact in order to attribute to Mary other children besides Jesus so as to make her a model for mothers of larger families. St. Jerome, motivated by the Church’s traditional faith in Mary’s perpetual virginity, wrote a tract against Helvidius in which he developed an explanation… that is still in vogue among Catholic scholars”
Mark 3:31-35, JB: His mother and brothers now arrived and, standing outside, sent in a message asking for him. A crowd was sitting round him at the time the message was passed to him, ‘Your mother and brothers and sisters are outside asking for you. He replied, Who are my mothers and my brothers? And looking round at those sitting in a circle about him, he said, Here are my mothers and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God, that person in my brother and sister and mother.’ " (here a clear distincion is drawn between Jesus’ natural brothers and his spiritual brothers, his disciples.

All this information comes from “Reasoning from the Scriptures” published by Jehovah’s Witnesses
Where in the bible does it say that Mary was a perfect virgin for all her life. If everyone sins wouldn’t she too be a sinner. And if she was married, wouldn’t she be aloud to have relations with her husband? I am converting to the Catholic faith and this is one of the things I need answered sense it is a very big deal in the Church. Thank you

 

[snarflemike]

What sin has a newborn baby committed?

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for a woman to bear children of two different fathers?

 

[bzkoss236]

The same could be said for the Trinity. The Trinity is very important, but if it is so important, why isn’t it spelled out explicitly in scripture?

Mary’s sinlessness comes mainly from Sacred Tradition, but elements that point to it can be found in scripture, such as Mary being referred to as the Ark of the New Covenant. There are tracts on Catholic.com which go over many of the biblical sections where this is derived from.

also, there is an apocryphal text (yes, even Catholics have texts that are considered apocryphal) called the Evangelum of James (or the “Gospel” of James) which talks about the circumstances of Mary’s birth and her life as a consecrated virgin in the temple. If she was conceived without sin, that is one thing, but there are circumstances in her life which probably helped her to not (and not want to) sin. If she was a consecrated virgin that assisted in the temple, I feel that would assist her in not sinning, because her time would have mostly been spent in the temple away from the influences of the outside world.

 

[eamonnroma]

According to scripture Christ was born of a virgin. Yes

However there is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin. In fact the Gospels even suggest that she was not.

Why is it important that she remained a virgin? After all sex and procreation in marriage is considered one of God’s greatest gifts.

 

[TomFromMD]

If it is so important that Mary was sinless why doesn’t the bible just come out and say it.

Beats me. As Catholics, we believe that we have truths passed down in Tradition beyond what is in the bible. The bible came from the Church, not the other way around. Regardless, our salvation doesn’t rest on this point.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337) regarding the Greek words a-del-phoi’ and a-del-phai’, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these "have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense.

There are several places where adelphoi is used in the Septuagint where the usage is clearly NOT blood brother or spiritual brother, but blood relative. This is due to the corresponding Aramaic word not having the same meaning. It could well be that the New Testament writers are intending to write in the same style. You’d think that if the early Church believed that Jesus had blood brothers, they would have objected when people came along saying Mary was a perpetual virgin, and those people would have been branded heretics. People were branded heretics over much smaller points. I put more credence in the Church than in the re-interpretation of the events by people 1500-2000 years later.

Where in the bible does it say that Mary was a perfect virgin for all her life.

It doesn’t. There are several beliefs of the Church that aren’t in the bible.

And if she was married, wouldn’t she be aloud to have relations with her husband?

To be allowed doesn’t mean she did. Paul tells us that we’re expected to fulfill our spouses’ sexual needs, but that doesn’t mean that two spouses could have a non-sexual marriage if it’s by mutual consent.

All this information comes from “Reasoning from the Scriptures” published by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Yeah. The JWs teach a lot of stuff that isn’t right. They’ve predicted the end date, and been wrong. They cling to the teaching that “Jehovah” is the correct pronunciation for the name of God, despite evidence to the contrary. They teach that Jesus was nailed to a stake instead of a cross, despite a lot of extra-biblical evidence to the contrary. They don’t believe in the Trinity. I put more faith in a 2000 year old tradition, especially when shared with our Orthodox and Coptic brethren, than re-interpretations that people came up with in the last 140 years by reading the Bible and nothing else.

 

[chero23]

If it is so important that Mary was sinless why doesn’t the bible just come out and say it. The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967, Vol. VII, pp. 378-381 acknowledges “…the Immaculate Conception is not taught explicitly in Scripture… The earliest Church Fathers regarded Mary as holy but not as absolutely sinless… It is impossible to give a precise date when the belief was held as a matter of faith, but by the 8th or 9th century it seems to have been generally admitted…” The bible says “Well then, sin entered the world through one man [Adam}, and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.” (Rom. 5:12, JB)

How do we know that she remained a virgin after Jesus was born? The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337) regarding the Greek words a-del-phoi’ and a-del-phai’, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these “have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense. Toward the end of the 4th century Helvidius in a work now lost pressed this fact in order to attribute to Mary other children besides Jesus so as to make her a model for mothers of larger families. St. Jerome, motivated by the Church’s traditional faith in Mary’s perpetual virginity, wrote a tract against Helvidius in which he developed an explanation… that is still in vogue among Catholic scholars”
Mark 3:31-35, JB: His mother and brothers now arrived and, standing outside, sent in a message asking for him. A crowd was sitting round him at the time the message was passed to him, ‘Your mother and brothers and sisters are outside asking for you. He replied, Who are my mothers and my brothers? And looking round at those sitting in a circle about him, he said, Here are my mothers and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God, that person in my brother and sister and mother.’ " (here a clear distincion is drawn between Jesus’ natural brothers and his spiritual brothers, his disciples.

All this information comes from “Reasoning from the Scriptures” published by Jehovah’s Witnesses
Where in the bible does it say that Mary was a perfect virgin for all her life. If everyone sins wouldn’t she too be a sinner. And if she was married, wouldn’t she be aloud to have relations with her husband? I am converting to the Catholic faith and this is one of the things I need answered sense it is a very big deal in the Church. Thank you

You give out the verse of mark 3:31-35 about the other brothers of Jesus. Everyone back then called each other brother. But ill give you some verses, John 19:25, explain how James and Joseph are the sons of the other Mary who by the way is the virgin Mary sister. In matthew 27:61, 28:1 you see how the other mary is known as the wife of Cleopas. In matthew 10:3, james is called the son of Alphaeus.
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[snarflemike]

OP, you ask “how do we know…?” Well, you need to answer your own question. How do we know anything about the Christian faith? That must be your starting point.

 

[robwar]

If it is so important that Mary was sinless why doesn’t the bible just come out and say it. The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967, Vol. VII, pp. 378-381 acknowledges “…the Immaculate Conception is not taught explicitly in Scripture… The earliest Church Fathers regarded Mary as holy but not as absolutely sinless… It is impossible to give a precise date when the belief was held as a matter of faith, but by the 8th or 9th century it seems to have been generally admitted…” The bible says “Well then, sin entered the world through one man [Adam}, and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.” (Rom. 5:12, JB)

How do we know that she remained a virgin after Jesus was born? The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337) regarding the Greek words a-del-phoi’ and a-del-phai’, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these “have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense. Toward the end of the 4th century Helvidius in a work now lost pressed this fact in order to attribute to Mary other children besides Jesus so as to make her a model for mothers of larger families. St. Jerome, motivated by the Church’s traditional faith in Mary’s perpetual virginity, wrote a tract against Helvidius in which he developed an explanation… that is still in vogue among Catholic scholars”
Mark 3:31-35, JB: His mother and brothers now arrived and, standing outside, sent in a message asking for him. A crowd was sitting round him at the time the message was passed to him, ‘Your mother and brothers and sisters are outside asking for you. He replied, Who are my mothers and my brothers? And looking round at those sitting in a circle about him, he said, Here are my mothers and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God, that person in my brother and sister and mother.’ " (here a clear distincion is drawn between Jesus’ natural brothers and his spiritual brothers, his disciples.

All this information comes from “Reasoning from the Scriptures” published by Jehovah’s Witnesses
Where in the bible does it say that Mary was a perfect virgin for all her life. If everyone sins wouldn’t she too be a sinner. And if she was married, wouldn’t she be aloud to have relations with her husband? I am converting to the Catholic faith and this is one of the things I need answered sense it is a very big deal in the Church. Thank you

You need to stop using JW information and references since it will be false. If you are in RCIA then you need to read books that explain the Catholic positions on Mary not those that are against it. The references in the NT to “brothers and sisters” use the Aramaic terms brothers and sisters because there in no word in Aramaic for cousin. Cousins were called brothers and sisters. This is also supported in the Lots is called Abraham’s brother while he is actually Abraham’s nephew. Likewise, if one looked at Church history and teaching, Mary’s perpetual virginity was always taught and supported not that Mary and Joseph later had physical children between them. Traditionally, Mary was a temple virgin and served as such because she matured and had to leave it. One also might need to consider that having the Son of God in your womb might be a life changing event for Mary in that afterwards and due to it, she would remain a virgin. You should read books such as “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn and other books by adult Catholic converts that delve into these issues.
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[Erich]

However there is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin. In fact the Gospels even suggest that she was not.

The Gospels suggest no such thing.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is closely tied to her being the Ark of the New Covenant, as this article helps clarify.

 

[snarflemike]

According to scripture Christ was born of a virgin. Yes

However there is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin. In fact the Gospels even suggest that she was not.

You are wrong. The fact that Mary lived the rest of her life in the home of an unrelated man is very powerful evidence that she had no other children.

 

[St_Francis]

WRT Mary’s virginity, it is implicit in the text that she and Joseph planned an unconsummated marriage. Here is a betrothed young woman who is told she will bear a child aand her reaction is, How can this be, since I know not man?

As to the rest of Catholic teaching, consider the structure of the New Testament: 4 biographies of Christ, one brief history, and several letters. Would you think you think you had a full knowledge of physics from reading 4 biographies of Einstein, a brief history of his time, and some letters of his students?

 

[TomFromMD]

WRT Mary’s virginity, it is implicit in the text that she and Joseph planned an unconsummated marriage. Here is a betrothed young woman who is told she will bear a child and her reaction is, How can this be, since I know not man?

To me, a simple reading, without presupposing perpetual virginity, would be that she assumed that the angel meant that this was something imminent, and meant “since I know not man yet”. If they were in the betrothal phase, and traveling, she would known that the consummation of their marriage was not imminent.

As to the rest of Catholic teaching, consider the structure of the New Testament: 4 biographies of Christ, one brief history, and several letters. Would you think you think you had a full knowledge of physics from reading 4 biographies of Einstein, a brief history of his time, and some letters of his students?

 

[jediliz]

According to scripture Christ was born of a virgin. Yes

However there is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin. In fact the Gospels even suggest that she was not.

Why is it important that she remained a virgin? After all sex and procreation in marriage is considered one of God’s greatest gifts.

mary’s “spouse” was the Holy Spirit. Having relations with Joseph would have been adultery. We also don’t know how old Joseph was - he could have been anywhere from 19 - in his 30s or 40s. Some tradition says that he may have been more of a guardian of her Virginity…that she was a temple Consecrated virgin. Go back and read Luke and her reaction to the Angel’s message. She knows where babies come from, but is confused how it would be possible…was she not planning on having relations with her husband?

BTW.** if an angel came to you and told you that you would bear the SON OF GOD**…you’d want to devote your WHOLE life to raising HIM! You wouldn’t have time for “other children”…

 

[aemcpa]

We know that Mary was perpetually a virgin because it was defined by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, Constantinople III, in 680.

I am not aware that the doctrine that Mary never committed any sin in her whole life has ever been formally defined, but it is certainly taught in the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

 

[robwar]

mary’s “spouse” was the Holy Spirit. Having relations with Joseph would have been adultery. We also don’t know how old Joseph was - he could have been anywhere from 19 - in his 30s or 40s. Some tradition says that he may have been more of a guardian of her Virginity…that she was a temple Consecrated virgin. Go back and read Luke and her reaction to the Angel’s message. She knows where babies come from, but is confused how it would be possible…was she not planning on having relations with her husband?

BTW.** if an angel came to you and told you that you would bear the SON OF GOD**…you’d want to devote your WHOLE life to raising HIM! You wouldn’t have time for “other children”…

Yes, another scripture clue is the foot of the cross, Jesus entrusts the care of Mary to John. If there had been half brothers, Mary would have automatically gone to live with one of them and there would have been no need of John. I think this and meditating on the foot of the cross scene that helped me to understand and accept what the Church always taught about Mary’s perpetual virginity. When I was in college (a state university) I took a course called Christianity. It was taught by a liberal Protestant theologian. It was an interesting course but the biggest thing I took away from it was when we were covering this topic which both Catholic and Orthodox teach. This professor rather reluctantly said that all the earliest documents and teachers of the faith attested to Mary’s perpetual virginity. So in other words, those that knew Mary or even knew those who knew Mary were able to teach that she was a perpetual virgin.

 

[bzkoss236]

According to scripture Christ was born of a virgin. Yes

However there is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin. In fact the Gospels even suggest that she was not.

Actually, it only suggests that if you take the verses out of context of the entirety of scripture. There are plenty of implicit, but significant, evidence that Mary had no other children. And as I mentioned before, there is also extra-biblical evidence that aids in the historical view that Mary had no other children.

 

[Della]

If it is so important that Mary was sinless why doesn’t the bible just come out and say it. The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967, Vol. VII, pp. 378-381 acknowledges “…the Immaculate Conception is not taught explicitly in Scripture… The earliest Church Fathers regarded Mary as holy but not as absolutely sinless… It is impossible to give a precise date when the belief was held as a matter of faith, but by the 8th or 9th century it seems to have been generally admitted…” The bible says “Well then, sin entered the world through one man [Adam}, and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.” (Rom. 5:12, JB)

The Bible is not a book of doctrines/dogmas. It has no list of approved teachings about any topic. To try to use it like that is to misapply and misinterpret what the authors of the various books were trying to convey to us. You must divest yourself of the “Sola Scriptura” mentality, which was one of the inventions of the reformers and not believed or taught up until they decided to use the Bible as it had never been used before. A great book, that you can read online on the topic: Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Right Rev. Henry G. Graham.

As to the verse you cited, if “everyone” is to be taken literally, it would mean that Jesus sinned, as well. Since that is ridiculous, we must ask: “What was St. Paul saying?” not “What does this verse say taken out of context?” Yes? St. Paul was discussing the grafting in of Gentile believers into Israel through Christ. He was saying that Jews and Gentiles alike are born into sin. He was not discussing Mary nor Jesus’s births or conceptions. Many non-Catholic groups cite this verse because is “seems” to say that Mary was born a sinner, but that is not what the text is discussing at all. There are many places in Scripture in which the word “all” is used in which is it not all encompassing, but rather refers only to certain persons/groups. This is where proper biblical exegesis needs to be applied.

How do we know that she remained a virgin after Jesus was born? The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337) regarding the Greek words a-del-phoi’ and a-del-phai’, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these “have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense. Toward the end of the 4th century Helvidius in a work now lost pressed this fact in order to attribute to Mary other children besides Jesus so as to make her a model for mothers of larger families. St. Jerome, motivated by the Church’s traditional faith in Mary’s perpetual virginity, wrote a tract against Helvidius in which he developed an explanation… that is still in vogue among Catholic scholars”
Mark 3:31-35, JB: His mother and brothers now arrived and, standing outside, sent in a message asking for him. A crowd was sitting round him at the time the message was passed to him, ‘Your mother and brothers and sisters are outside asking for you. He replied, Who are my mothers and my brothers? And looking round at those sitting in a circle about him, he said, Here are my mothers and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God, that person in my brother and sister and mother.’ " (here a clear distincion is drawn between Jesus’ natural brothers and his spiritual brothers, his disciples.

Non-Catholics groups, such as the JWs love to quote passages out of context with the assumptoin that what they are saying is supported by them. But again, this is poor exegesis. Firstly, theologians and Bible scholars are free to speculate about any teaching/topic until the Church speaks definitely on it. This does not mean that the Church ever supported their speculations. The final say is with the Magisterium, not with theologians/scholars/bishops or priests speaking on their own. Also others have explained what “brothers and sisters” meant in this context, so I won’t go into that again.

All this information comes from “Reasoning from the Scriptures” published by Jehovah’s Witnesses
Where in the bible does it say that Mary was a perfect virgin for all her life. If everyone sins wouldn’t she too be a sinner. And if she was married, wouldn’t she be aloud to have relations with her husband? I am converting to the Catholic faith and this is one of the things I need answered sense it is a very big deal in the Church. Thank you

When a person is in RCIA and knows little about Church teaching, it’s not a good idea to go to non-Catholic sources for information about Church teachings. The objections they raise have all been answered a million times over. You need to read competent Catholic sources.

Finally, everything the Church teaches about Mary is not to exalt her, per se. It may do that, but that’s not its primary function. Marian teachings, like all the Church’s teachings, tell us things about Christ, our place before God, and our duty to others. Certainly we love Mary, we ought to love all our brethren in Christ, non-Catholics, non-Christians, indeed, everyone. We honor her most especially for her fiat and her faithfulness. Think how hard it would have been for her if she had not been prepared by God for her very special mission as the Mother of God. Hers were sufferings and trials of the most unique kind–ones other mothers will never have to go through. Why? Because her Son was the Son of God and the Son of man. God prepared her for her special mission by preserving her from original sin, thus keeping her free of concupiscence (the desire to sin) because she was the Second Eve and the Ark of the New Covenant who conceived and bore in her womb the Christ of God.
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[TomFromMD]

mary’s “spouse” was the Holy Spirit. Having relations with Joseph would have been adultery.

Cringe. Adultery? Mary was Joseph’s wife!

 

[tabycat]

According to scripture Christ was born of a virgin. Yes

However there is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin. In fact the Gospels even suggest that she was not.

Why is it important that she remained a virgin? After all sex and procreation in marriage is considered one of God’s greatest gifts.

One small point, where, in scriptural, does it say that anybody, other then Jesus, was called the child of Mary? And, if She had other children, why did Jesus leave Her care to James and not to one of Her “other children”?

 

[godisgood77]

I know that the Church teaches that Mary is a perpetual virgin. I resign to the teaching authority… I don’t understand it, but resign to it. The natural question for me has nothing to do with other children, but more to do with Mary marriage to Joseph. If she was a virgin, then I guess she did not have a sacramental marriage with Joseph because they never consummated their marriage.

However, I have no idea why this subject is important or what value this teaching brings to the people of God? If anyone can shed light on that, I would be very grateful.