How do we know that scripture is Inspired?

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It’s like the Catholics who present those arguments want me to be exactly the kind of Catholic they want me to be; and it’s not just the arguments from historicity; it’s also the other ones from miracles, from prophecy etc…

As if there exists a mold for “being Catholic” and everyone who has any aspiration for Catholicism must fit into it, lest he or she be declared an atheist, a pagan, irrational, or some other bad thing.

Those arguments are like a Procrustean bed.
I feel horrible about it.

The people who are born and raised into Catholicism actually have a lot of freedom in how they justify their faith, if they justify it at all.

But we outsiders/newcomers are supposed to be like some kind of puppets, like robots, from the same series at that.
Coming to know God is to enter into a relationship. This relationship is larger than the historicity of the bible or the Church. A relationship can’t be “proved”.

But, the central idea of Christianity is that God so desires to give of himself (loves us), that he reveals himself to us through the Incarnation. We enter into relationship with God through the person of Christ, who is God revealed in the flesh. The flame you talk about, which is present in every person, is unable to apprehend God fully, so he comes to meet us, as one of us.

In the Incarnation God enters into time and space, he enters into history. So pondering the historical footprints of Inspiration is important. It’s just that the historical footprints are not the complete essence of Christ, and in my opinion, should not be the starting point, or “proof”.
 
Coming to know God is to enter into a relationship.
Except that entering this relationship can only be done by formally joining the Church.
And formally joining the Church means to profess all those secular arguments as relevant, among other things.
 
Except that entering this relationship can only be done by formally joining the Church.
And formally joining the Church means to profess all those secular arguments as relevant, among other things.
Huge topic there.
A relationship with Christ will draw you into communion with others, because that is what Christ did…he became one of us and lived among us. Faith in Christ draws us into a faith held in common with others, despite differences of opinion and levels of understanding. That faith in common is not something that restricts us, rather we find our full freedom in the assent of faith.

That faith has an explicit profession for Catholics, the Creed. I’m not sure why you have the idea that the Creed is a secular argument? It is a statement of faith that is informed by reason, by history, by study, by prayer, by entering into relationship with Christ. All those elements. Maybe I misunderstand your use of the word secular.

And I have to get work done so I cannot continue the discussion without shooting from the hip, which will get me suspended again. :o
Maybe someone else can continue.
 
Except that entering this relationship can only be done by formally joining the Church.
And formally joining the Church means to profess all those secular arguments as relevant, among other things.
Well, why don’t we try a completely different approach?

You can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church for yourself and ask questions in the forum as you go along.

Sound good?
 
Well, why don’t we try a completely different approach?

You can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church for yourself and ask questions in the forum as you go along.
I am already reading it.

One of my main problems right now is what to do in the meantime while studying the CCC and other texts. Even in the most ideal case, I couldn’t formally become a Catholic in less than a year from now.

I don’t think I can wait that long to begin putting things into practice. My life right now is such that it requires courage under fire, so to speak. I need God now, not first a year or more from now.

If it were up to me, I would put a number of teachings, including those involving prayer and expressed reliance on God, into action now.

But I get told that I can’t refer to God as “Father” -
“The “door of faith” (Acts 14:27) is always open for us, ushering us into the life of communion with God and offering entry into his Church. It is possible to cross that threshold when the word of God is proclaimed and the heart allows itself to be shaped by transforming grace. To enter through that door is to set out on a journey that lasts a lifetime. It begins with baptism (cf. Rom6:4), through which we can address God as Father, and it ends with the passage through death to eternal life, fruit of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, whose will it was, by the gift of the Holy Spirit, to draw those who believe in him into his own glory (cf. Jn 17:22).”
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20111011_porta-fidei.html
That means I also can’t pray the Lord’s Prayer. And probably the others also not.
 
Just because I am proud or stupid doesn’t make the Catholic Church right.

“I am proud and stupid, therefore, the Catholic Church is right” is not a sound argument.

That I am or may be proud and stupid means just that: that I am or may be proud and stupid.

But from there on, it doesn’t follow that this or that particular religious institution or person is right.

I have heard less or more veiled accusations of “self-righteousness” (and stupidity and pride) from people from several Christian denominations, from the Hare Krishnas, and from some Muslims.

They have all more or less directly accused me of being proud, or stupid. And to them, this somehow meant that their own religion was right.

Well, if that it so, then all those Christian denominations, the Hare Krishnas, and Islam are all the right religion!
You are putting things not in the way I intended or explained them. I didn’t imply you or anyone else was proud and stupid. Who am I to judge. I referred to a universal condition that all of humanity suffers. Perhaps you are not convinced of this. It doesn’t take much observation to know this, look at history and the present state of affairs. Why do we believe that Jesus came, and why are we arguing so much. If a person is humble and truthful enough, he will recognize that he is truly fallible, even capable of evil. This applies to those in or out of religion. Now if a religion states things that are true, confirmed by objective reality more than other religions, and can back up what it states, then should one investigate this religion? This is what the Catholic Church is doing. All human organizations are composed of fallible human beings, and scandal is inevitable (even Jesus stated this truth) but He also stated that He would sustain His Church, and Hell (evil) will not destroy it.

All the reason and witness in the world can not convert anyone, although it can dispose one to conversion. We hold, and believe, and witness that it is an “encounter with Jesus” that brings about conversion, a new way of life filled with grace, and that is a gift.

That is the foundation of the Catholic Church, belief in Jesus to be the Son of God, the Messiah. Just as St.Peter did when Jesus asked him “Who do you say I am” Just as Peter was called “rock” representing the Big Rock, Jesus, so every Christian is like Peter, a chip off the rock proclaiming the Big Rock upon which the Church is built. He is the Way, there is no other.

Self righteousness can be seen as an “attitude”, and it is a universal human fault, and no one is exempt because all humanity needs salvation. We have to be on our guard for it, it can really effect our judgement critically, that’s why I referred to St.Paul as an example, he condoned the killing of St.Stevens and had to be enlightened by Jesus. A humble, prayerful attitude, and reflection asking God to protect us from this critical fault, and I say this from experience!
 
I am already reading it.

One of my main problems right now is what to do in the meantime while studying the CCC and other texts. Even in the most ideal case, I couldn’t formally become a Catholic in less than a year from now.

I don’t think I can wait that long to begin putting things into practice. My life right now is such that it requires courage under fire, so to speak. I need God now, not first a year or more from now.

If it were up to me, I would put a number of teachings, including those involving prayer and expressed reliance on God, into action now.

But I get told that I can’t refer to God as “Father” -

That means I also can’t pray the Lord’s Prayer. And probably the others also not.
Sounds like “baptism of desire” to me.

If I were you, I’d start talking to God now, and sort the rest out later.

Imagine if you were dating a man with whom you were increasingly serious. It might be awhile before you could call him “husband”, but you could still talk to him in the interim. 👍
 
The only one of the Gospels that speaks of Christ founding a Church is Matthew, and the passage which does so is highly dubious regarded purely as a historical text. The dishonesty of the method is shown here in a particularly glaring way. No one using purely historical methods would conclude that Jesus actually said, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.” Jesus may in fact have said these words. But the only reason I would conclude this would be out of faith and acceptance of the Church’s authority.
John’s Gospel is the only one that speaks of Jesus as “Word made Flesh” and which records the miracle of water into wine. Do you have trouble accepting either of these?

If you’re looking for all four Gospels to record the same events, you won’t have much.

Only Matthew and Luke record the beatitudes, and they record them differently. One is the “Sermon on the Mount,” the other is the “Sermon on the Plain.” Luke’s version is “Blessings and Woes” while Matthew only records Blessings.

So how many Gospels have to record the event for you to accept that it happened? And how similar do they have to be?
 
I am already reading it.

One of my main problems right now is what to do in the meantime while studying the CCC and other texts. Even in the most ideal case, I couldn’t formally become a Catholic in less than a year from now.

I don’t think I can wait that long to begin putting things into practice. My life right now is such that it requires courage under fire, so to speak. I need God now, not first a year or more from now.

If it were up to me, I would put a number of teachings, including those involving prayer and expressed reliance on God, into action now.

But I get told that I can’t refer to God as “Father” -

That means I also can’t pray the Lord’s Prayer. And probably the others also not.
I have never heard that only the baptized can say the Lord’s Prayer. Anyone and everyone can and should say it. God, being God is everyone’s Father, whether they believe or not. As a matter of fact, when Jesus gave these instructions, he was speaking to the multitudes, not all of whom were baptized.

BTW, you can say any prayer you want to. Prayer is between you and God, not you and someone else.
 
Oh no, not this again.

You have never been able to defend this. It’s a bogus, dishonest approach. Stop using it, for the love of God.

It’s not “the Catholic method.” It’s a method unfortunately endorsed by some apologists.

This is a glaring logical fallacy. You know this, because I’ve pointed it out many times before. So what is your excuse for continuing to use it?

Edwin
:rotfl:
:clapping::clapping: [standing O]

:tiphat::amen:
And here’s why, Edwin.

:rotfl:
 
John’s Gospel is the only one that speaks of Jesus as “Word made Flesh” and which records the miracle of water into wine. Do you have trouble accepting either of these?

If you’re looking for all four Gospels to record the same events, you won’t have much.

Only Matthew and Luke record the beatitudes, and they record them differently. One is the “Sermon on the Mount,” the other is the “Sermon on the Plain.” Luke’s version is “Blessings and Woes” while Matthew only records Blessings.

So how many Gospels have to record the event for you to accept that it happened? And how similar do they have to be?
Please keep in mind that we are talking about what can be proven historically (insofar as anything historical can be proven, which is only in a very qualified sense compared to mathematical proof).

This is one of the reasons why the spiral argument is so fundamentally dishonest. It starts out by claiming the subject Scripture to historical analysis like any other book, but if you actually start engaging in such analysis you get “why don’t you believe the Bible.” It’s extremely wearisome.

Historically, in order to have reasonable confidence that something happened you prefer to have independent sources attesting it.

The Word made flesh is a theological claim, not a historical one.

But yes, the miracles described only in John are, historically speaking, much more open to question than those that crop up in different forms in different Gospels, particularly those attested both in the Synoptics and in John. In particular since John is almost certainly the latest of the Gospels and may have been written in its current form close to a century after the events described.

The classic list of criteria for determining historicity in the Gospels is that of John Meier, a Catholic scholar (though no doubt one who will be rejected as a liberal by many here). The criteria are certainly open to criticism. Overreliance on discontinuity, for instance, produces a very strange “historical Jesus” who doesn’t look like first-century Judaism or like early Christianity, which makes no sense historically. I like N. T. Wright’s suggestion that the material most likely to be historical is both continuous and discontinuous with both first-century Judaism and early Christianity. That is to say, if you find something that makes sense in the basic mental and cultural world of the first century but would also be odd to first-century Jews and doesn’t look like a projection backward of early Christian beliefs, then you’re most likely to be in touch with the historical Jesus.

Multiple attestation is the most solid of the criteria. Although of course that doesn’t mean that material found only in one source is inauthentic–simply that we can be relatively more certain of its historicity the more independent sources mention it.

Ediwn
 
👋

Dr. Tait-

I have a question: In your personal opinion, what are some of the reasons why we believe the Bible is inspired, and how do we answer arguments against its inspiration?
I have answered this question already.

And you have routinely refused to answer my objections to the spiral argument.

The argument is a joke to anyone who has any training as a historian. It is dishonest.

I am going to keep saying this until you deal with my arguments or stop using it, or I finally give up on this forum.

You are better than this, Randy. You are an honest person. Stop using a dishonest argument that you cannot defend.

Your question to me implies that there must be a “proof” and so you will use any proof that presents itself whether it’s valid or not. That is not honest.

Edwin
 
I suppose that there might be a special case - where the Holy Spirit intervenes and gives a person the certainty about the divine inspiration of the Bible.

I think you are missing an important step here. The above should be:
"So how do I know that a particular scripture is inspired? The Church told me so. And I trust the Church.

Answer: The Church told me so,and I found out it was true, gradually and finally experiencially.

The Church tells things to all kinds of people, but not all trust her.
Why doesn’t everyone trust her?
Is it really the case that all those who don’t trust the Church do so in deliberate rebellion against her?

Answer:

Sometimes the Church is represented by some of the faithful who are not well-informed
and maybe not converted, just nominal Catholics. Some do rebel if it counters their way of life, others simply don’t understand her

People who first approach the Catholic Church when they are already adults, especially if they are not particularly young adults anymore at that time, are in a strikingly different position than those who are born into the Church.

answer:

True, and I would expect they are wiser, and more mature in their judgement, more discerning

People like myself are at best step-children, and the Church my step-mother. And you know what step-children and step-mothers tend to feel about eachother.

Answer:

God has no step children, the Church is a congregation of adopted children of God, you may just be a separated child of God

There is a special trust that exists between mothers and children; no matter how problematic the relationship may otherwise be, no matter if it is fraught with poverty, or disease, or abuse – that trust remains.

Answer:

True, especially with the adopted children of God, and those children to be adopted.

Step-children are another matter. Step-children are children only provisionally, temporarily, conditionally. They are optional. Step-children might as well leave or die, the step-mother would not particularly care, and the step-children know it.
That essential warmth is just not there between step-children and step-mothers.

Answer:
No one is regarded as step-children in the Catholic Church, and once you are adopted you are adopted forever No one is optional, you may be a child awaiting adoption. You are loved before you are even adopted by Mother Church.

And I don’t blame the Church - she didn’t invest in me, she didn’t invest in my upbringing, so why should she care about me the way she does about her own children? She also doesn’t have the same rights over me the way she has over her own children.

Answer: She represents some one who did invest in you and certainly invested in your upbringing. She does care about all her children adopted and un-adopted She represents some one who has all the rights over you.

As a prospective step-child, what could I possibly ask of her? Nothing.
As a prospective step-child, what could I possibly rely on her for? Nothing.

Answer:

You can ask for adoption as a separated child.
You can rely on her for a true home, nourishment, and eternal and even some temporal happiness.

The Catholic Church seems very well suitable for being born and raised into it (as is the case with most traditional religions). And it seems that her apologetic arguments are designed for people who were born and raised into it – in that those arguments take for granted that there is an essential trust already in place between the individual and the Church

Asnwer:

No, her apologetic arguments are designed to represent her true position against falsehoods, and mis-conceptions, and to prove that Her founder desires to gather His children into His home. For those born and raised in it, who are adopted, no need for apologetics. Jesus came to gather all His Father’s children together as was intended in the beginning

But with adult outsiders (especially if they have already experienced some trouble with Catholics), that trust simply doesn’t exist, and an apologetics that takes this trust for granted will simply not work as intended on those people.
Answer:

To be expected, divine adoption doesn’t mean the adopted children are perfect, and they have to listen to Mother Church to grow. Because they are not perfectly mature scandal is inevitable, as it exists also out side of the Church. Trust in not taken for granted, and the Church knows that some don’t trust her, but she keeps calling to her children in spite of that possibility, and even reality as a true Mother.
 
I’m sure that this has been tackled before here on the forums-however, people don’t appear to like to tag their posts 🤷

So, I’ll bring it back up. In conversation with many a denomination, this question always gets brought up. In general, I always want to lean back on “faith,” but there has to be a better explanation for this.

I speak to a lot of Mormons in my area who are quite skeptical of what they call “writings by fallible men” and… for those that are agnostic, or who doubt the books placed within the NT and the intentions of doing so, how do we go about explaining this?

Oral Tradition seems like a weak argument, because you can’t really prove it.
Any help in evangelizing those that don’t believe in the Inspiration of the NT in particular, is much appreciated.
Hi! Chris.

Without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.
Only God would be able to pull off such inspirational books from Moses to John. Approx.3600yrs.

God Bless:)
 
I have never heard that only the baptized can say the Lord’s Prayer. Anyone and everyone can and should say it. God, being God is everyone’s Father, whether they believe or not. As a matter of fact, when Jesus gave these instructions, he was speaking to the multitudes, not all of whom were baptized.

BTW, you can say any prayer you want to. Prayer is between you and God, not you and someone else.
In the early Church, at least according to some sources, the Lord’s Prayer was not taught until pretty late in the initiation process. The modern RCIA program has revived the practice of presenting the catechumens with the Prayer during Lent (though I’m sure not all parishes do this). Lucy may have deduced from this that she can’t say the Lord’s Prayer until she is baptized, which I do not believe is true.

Edwin
 
I have answered this question already.
Great. Simply provide the post # or a link and I will review what you have written. Thanks.
And you have routinely refused to answer my objections to the spiral argument.
Oh. So, that explains the TEN posts I responded to you with just this morning. Gotcha. :rolleyes:
The argument is a joke to anyone who has any training as a historian. It is dishonest.
Yeah. That explains why Peter Kreeft, PhD, begins one of his articles with the very same point: approach the Bible as a historical work.
I am going to keep saying this until you deal with my arguments or stop using it, or I finally give up on this forum.
You are better than this, Randy. You are an honest person. Stop using a dishonest argument that you cannot defend.
I will keep using it until you either (preferably both):

A. Explain in complete, thorough detail. If I am convinced by your argument, I will post a sincere public apology to you.
B. Provide an answer to my questions regarding how Catholics (not Christians) may know that the Bible is inspired without begging the question or relying on the infallibility of the Church (which, btw, is all I really need, but we do have others to care for). You may specify the degree of certainty of your argument, also, if you like.

In the meantime, know that I take exception to your accusation of dishonesty which requires that I post information in this forum knowing it to be untrue. Why would you accuse me of this on the one hand while saying “You are better than this” on the other.

Am I intentionally lying or do I genuinely believe the CA Spiral Argument to be valid? And if I believe it to be valid, am I stupid or correct?

Sounds like I’ve got my own trilemma here.

BTW- The Spiral Argument which has been popularized by Karl Keating and Catholic Answers was mentioned in the 1938 Volume 1 of Radio Replies. You may review that online here: radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-1.php?t=16
 
Hi! Chris.

Without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.
Only God would be able to pull off such inspirational books from Moses to John. Approx.3600yrs.

God Bless:)
👍👍👍
 
You say that the tract doesn’t say that an accurate text=accurate history. It’s true that it doesn’t say so in so many words. But after the section on textual accuracy, ending “we can work from it with confidence,” the tract goes on immediately to say "Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us. . . "
I disagree. here is the relevant text of what I posted, and I will insert my comments and highlight key text in red.

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work. [Up until this point, all that CA has said is that the text we have today accurately represents what the original author wrote.]

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. [Here, CA is specifying that we must examine the details of Jesus’ life as they are recorded in the Gospels. *Why we are concerned about this information is about to be explained.]

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. [Here we arrive at the doorstep of the Trilemma Argument. Dawkins’ fourth “L” - Jesus the Legend - has been ruled out by historical evidence from “extra-biblical writings” that the tract mentions.

From this point on, the Spiral Argument has smooth sailing. The Trilemma Argument is well-known and easily defended. Jesus is Lord.

Further, He promised to build a Church. The Church which God built cannot teach error. Finally, an infallible Church tells us that the Bible is not merely historically accurate, but also infallible.

Dr. Peter Kreeft begins with a similar approach in an article on the resurrection:

We believe Christ’s resurrection can be proved with at least as much certainty as any universally believed and well-documented event in ancient history. To prove this, we do not need to presuppose anything controversial (e.g. that miracles happen). But the skeptic must also not presuppose anything (e.g. that they do not). We do not need to presuppose that the New Testament is infallible, or divinely inspired or even true. We do not need to presuppose that there really was an empty tomb or post-resurrection appearances, as recorded. We need to presuppose only two things, both of which are hard data, empirical data, which no one denies: The existence of the New Testament texts as we have them, and the existence (but not necessarily the truth) of the Christian religion as we find it today. peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm
At no point does it again consider the question of historical accuracy.
Nor does it need to do so in order to make its case. The tract is brief, perhaps overly so on this one point, but it points to extra-biblical writings which corroborate the Gospels.

If the reader does his homework by examining this evidence, he will come to the conclusion that the New Testament books are historically reliable. Since one of these books, Matthew, speaks of the foundation of a Church, the chain of the argument is unbroken.
 
Sorry for not noticing these posts–I was reading backwards through the thread and found the last of your posts, and reacted to it without reading further. That was inexcusably hasty of me.
Then your beef is with the brevity of the tract and not with the argument. Or rather that one step in the argument was omitted. There should have been a paragraph covering the historical accuracy of the NT - an accuracy which is confirmed again and again and again by archaeological findings which are undeniable and unambiguous.
OK, so first of all we have a tract that supposedly lays out the argument. The argument turns on the historical accuracy of the NT, and yet the tract never provides any arguments for the historical accuracy of the NT, except the textual argument which is largely irrelevant. So at the very least this is a stunningly bad statement of the argument.

But in fact the problem is with the argument. To go further into the historical evidence is to see just how complicated the evidence is. It’s not that there isn’t evidence to support the historicity of the NT. It’s that the evidence is too complex and too tentative to hold the weight that the spiral argument puts on it.

You mention archeological evidence. What archeological evidence? And what on earth does this have to do with the spiral argument?

Bear in mind that the spiral argument commits you to proving, by history alone, that Jesus founded an authoritative Church. This is a patently impossible task. But it’s what the argument requires you to do. Nothing less will do for the spiral argument to work.
So, in CONCLUSION (in the hope that we may NEVER have this dispute arising in this forum AGAIN to the detriment of those weaker brethren among us whose faith is FAR LESS certain than your own),
You know nothing at all about the certainty of my faith. One of the reasons this argument enrages me is that bad arguments of this kind (the Protestant versions) nearly destroyed my faith when I was a teenager, and the fact that so many people glibly accept such bad arguments still makes me wonder. Maybe what I think are my own better reasons are just as deceived. You have no idea of how devastating and harmful it is to make bad arguments for the faith. It’s one of the worst things, intellectually, you can do. If you really care about the weak in faith, you need to take what I am saying seriously.
 
let’s agree that inclusion of two or three examples of the historical accuracy of the NT would be helpful. How’s this:
  • The Jewish historian, Josephus, recorded the following:
    Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. (Josephus, Testimonium Flavium in Antiquities of the Jews, AD 93-94, reconstructed by Meier).
Right. So Jesus existed. This is supposed to prove that the entire NT is historically accurate how? It’s supposed to prove that Jesus established an authoritative Church how?It’s irrelevant to the point at issue.
  • In 1961, the discovery of an inscription of Pontius Pilate was the first extra-biblical corroboration of the existence of the man who condemned Jesus.
So Pontius Pilate existed. Again, irrelevant to the point at issue.
  • In 1990, the burial grounds of Caiaphas, the high priest, were discovered in a cave in the southern part of Jerusalem providing the refutation of arguments against the historicity of this important biblical figure.
Fine, Caiaphas existed. This is relevant to the points at issue how?

How do we get from “Jesus, Pontius Pilate, and Caiaphas were all real people” to “the NT is accurate in every detail and we can conclude from this that Jesus established an authoritative Church?”

Again, the lack of logic in this kind of argument is truly astounding.

Just to take one obvious parallel: one “classic” of anti-Catholic literature is the autobiography of an ex-Catholic priest called Charles Chiniquy, who claims to have had a conversation with Abraham Lincoln in which Lincoln told him that he knew the Jesuits were plotting to kill him. The fact that Abraham Lincoln and Fr. Chiniquy were real people does not prove that any such conversation took place, and much less that Lincoln’s suspicions (if he had them) were correct. But that’s the kind of thing you’re arguing. If you can prove that some of the facts in the NT are correct, then you prove that the whole NT is correct including the bits needed for the spiral argument.

This is just ridiculous. You have to prove that the relevant bits are accurate. Proving that some other things in the NT are accurate does nothing to help the case. I think the basic problem we are having is that you, like most folks who aren’t historians, imagine that we establish the general reliability of a text and then take everything it says as true. That would be very bad practice in any historical discipline. Historians are concerned with the historicity of specific claims. Of course the more things a text gets right, the more likely you are to trust it where you haven’t yet verified. But you always verify, no matter how generally trustworthy the text. And the examples you’re giving are hardly particularly remarkable as evidence of the New Testament’s trustworthiness.
  • In the 19th century, archaeologists finally discovered the pool where Jesus cured a sick man as recorded in John 5. The pool is named Bethesda, it is located near the Sheep Gate, and it has five porches - just as John accurately recorded eighteen centuries earlier.
Fine. So whoever wrote John had some knowledge of Jerusalem. That’s all it proves.
Maybe I’ll add this to MY version of the Spiral Argument to eliminate any dispute about the soundness of the argument when I post it in the future.
Will that satisfy you?
No. It would be a slight improvement on the CA version, but that’s not saying much. The evidence is still irrelevant, except to refute extreme versions of skepticism that treat the Gospels basically as pure fiction. But that’s not the point at issue in the spiral argument. In order to support the claim that Jesus established an authoritative Church, you need a lot more than a few places where the Gospels make accurate claims. You need to work on the actual passages that are relevant to the spiral argument, such as Matt. 16. You need to show some acquaintance with historical-critical methodology in order to understand why the overwhelming consensus of historians is that Matt. 16 and similar passages most likely involve some degree of theological interpretation by the first-century Church.

Or you could give up on the argument altogether. Obviously that is what would really satisfy me. But if you really want to shoulder the task of doing what none of the excellent conservative scholars already out there has been able to do, then fine. Go for it. But you have no idea what you’re signing up for, because your posts so far demonstrate that you have no clue how historical evidence actually works.

Edwin
 
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